Discussion
Hi, loosely considering a 2001 Tuscan S, low miles (10k) on original engine.
I am very handy mechanically, not much scares me. But, know nothing about the mk1 engine issues (I think there are some?) Is there a decent historical thread, or can someone please explain what the basic issues are and when it might be likely to need a rebuild, mileage wise. Realise this is going to be a bit of a wild approximation!
Ta
Nic
I am very handy mechanically, not much scares me. But, know nothing about the mk1 engine issues (I think there are some?) Is there a decent historical thread, or can someone please explain what the basic issues are and when it might be likely to need a rebuild, mileage wise. Realise this is going to be a bit of a wild approximation!
Ta
Nic
There will be hundreds of threads on the Speed Six issues from first manufacture, but in summary:
TVR changed some of the Melling design which introduces some design risk in the valve train. Finger followers therefore wear. This was compounded by the edict from on high to go shopping cheap for the components which resulted in many sub-standard parts going into early engines exacerbating the problem. Hence a ton of warranty claims which was a major factor in TVR going bust in the end. Some engines were rebuilt by the factory but again with substandard parts until they figured out what the problem was. There is a compound to the problem with poor oil feed to the top of the engine, particularly at the rear cylinders. To top all that off there is a weak half-time bearing.
So that all said, most if not all early engines will have had or have needed rebuilds. At some point just before they folded the material issues had been sorted but with the way TVR issued parts there's no definitive date on bad/good. I had a 2003 build Tuscan which did 60k miles without a problem, others have had failures on later engines.
Out of this came a few solutions to the problem and a few TVR specialists (Powers & Str8Six in particular) had enough faith in their solutions to offer unlimited miles warranties with thorough rebuilds. There is also the option do it yourself if you are proficient with the spanners, there's a couple of threads detailing how to do it.
In terms of what you are looking at, 10k is still very early in the engines life so there is a decent risk of rebuild yet to come. I would certainly price that in to any offer you are considering.
There is a wiki pinned to the Tuscan sub-forum detailing miles/rebuilds people have experienced. Also look at the Speed Six sub-forum which will have tons of info going back two decades.
TVR changed some of the Melling design which introduces some design risk in the valve train. Finger followers therefore wear. This was compounded by the edict from on high to go shopping cheap for the components which resulted in many sub-standard parts going into early engines exacerbating the problem. Hence a ton of warranty claims which was a major factor in TVR going bust in the end. Some engines were rebuilt by the factory but again with substandard parts until they figured out what the problem was. There is a compound to the problem with poor oil feed to the top of the engine, particularly at the rear cylinders. To top all that off there is a weak half-time bearing.
So that all said, most if not all early engines will have had or have needed rebuilds. At some point just before they folded the material issues had been sorted but with the way TVR issued parts there's no definitive date on bad/good. I had a 2003 build Tuscan which did 60k miles without a problem, others have had failures on later engines.
Out of this came a few solutions to the problem and a few TVR specialists (Powers & Str8Six in particular) had enough faith in their solutions to offer unlimited miles warranties with thorough rebuilds. There is also the option do it yourself if you are proficient with the spanners, there's a couple of threads detailing how to do it.
In terms of what you are looking at, 10k is still very early in the engines life so there is a decent risk of rebuild yet to come. I would certainly price that in to any offer you are considering.
There is a wiki pinned to the Tuscan sub-forum detailing miles/rebuilds people have experienced. Also look at the Speed Six sub-forum which will have tons of info going back two decades.
Pretty good summary. 10K miles... ummh I bought a stripped SP6 for spare/stock that was low miles, sub 8K apparently and it looks uber fresh so believe it, but, it has eaten a finger follower... like eaten it. There are four others that are "out of tolerance" but of interest is that the worse one was on the inlet side, number 5 so it sits over one the oil feeds... the echelles heel of these engines was the metallurgy, or lack of it..., as mentioned above the cost cutting probably sunk TVR or at least banged a few nails in.
To answer the question there is a lot wrong with these but there is a solution, but it costs. Budget for a rebuild, keep it in a tin and try your luck. If you fancy it they are easy enough to build, strip everything... clean everything.... pipes/tanks/oil cooler, do the HT bearing upgrade from Powers, do steel rods, use tri metal bearings (not silicone), buy the head from Powers on an exchange (there is a lot of time and parts in these and it adds up quick), rebuild/exchange water pump and oil pumps and don't cause death by silicone. Then it will go well, last long enough and embarrass a lot of things.
J
To answer the question there is a lot wrong with these but there is a solution, but it costs. Budget for a rebuild, keep it in a tin and try your luck. If you fancy it they are easy enough to build, strip everything... clean everything.... pipes/tanks/oil cooler, do the HT bearing upgrade from Powers, do steel rods, use tri metal bearings (not silicone), buy the head from Powers on an exchange (there is a lot of time and parts in these and it adds up quick), rebuild/exchange water pump and oil pumps and don't cause death by silicone. Then it will go well, last long enough and embarrass a lot of things.
J
As described, oil starvation issues, bad materials etc.
A list of issues was dawn up during the development and a corrections budget set.
When the budget ran out, any remaining issues were ignored.
My first Tuscan was a year 2000.
It had had a rebuild at the factory at 35k miles and I bought it at 70k.
Yes, it needed another rebuild which was done at Str8Six.
On the early engines, the throttle body butterfly shaft had no bushes or bearings where it passed through the body castings.
That was another necessary job done at Str8Six and made a super difference.
When Smolenski took over in 2004, he stopped production and had tech and quality issues corrected.
My current 2006 Tuscan Convertible is on around 87k miles without rebuild.
A list of issues was dawn up during the development and a corrections budget set.
When the budget ran out, any remaining issues were ignored.
My first Tuscan was a year 2000.
It had had a rebuild at the factory at 35k miles and I bought it at 70k.
Yes, it needed another rebuild which was done at Str8Six.
On the early engines, the throttle body butterfly shaft had no bushes or bearings where it passed through the body castings.
That was another necessary job done at Str8Six and made a super difference.
When Smolenski took over in 2004, he stopped production and had tech and quality issues corrected.
My current 2006 Tuscan Convertible is on around 87k miles without rebuild.
Edited by so called on Monday 30th May 15:36
How can I tell if my mk1 has had a rebuild. Nothing in the history but previous owner passed away and I don’t think his widow knew where to find his history files.
The car has proved to be 100% reliable and Steve at SD thinks it’s great. It would be nice to say it has had a rebuild but how can I tell?
The car has proved to be 100% reliable and Steve at SD thinks it’s great. It would be nice to say it has had a rebuild but how can I tell?
Since the engine number is only stamped on the water pump housing , the only part guaranteed to be "yours" is the water pump housing/bottom end. I wouldn't be surprised if after a factory rebuild you finished up with anothers' engine 
. I put may own stamps on the block when mine was upgraded to make sure I got my own block back. I wonder if people ever check their engine numbers against the V5C ?
. I put may own stamps on the block when mine was upgraded to make sure I got my own block back. I wonder if people ever check their engine numbers against the V5C ?Edited by glow worm on Friday 3rd June 12:53
I remember back to when the original owners of Speed 6 engines were complaining on PH. And fairly shocking reading it was back then. Some engines were failing as low as 3k miles if I recall correctly!
I find it very hard to believe that any earlyish cars with a decent mileage on them will not have ‘had work’ by now.
It may not be documented but I just can’t see how engines with metallurgically incorrect components can last.
But with 10k miles like the Op’s car it’s tricky. It is just possible that it really hasn’t had a rebuild.
If the car is good otherwise, I’d check with Powers Performance or Str8Six what a rebuild costs these days and just be aware that you might have to find stump up that kind of money at some stage.
I find it very hard to believe that any earlyish cars with a decent mileage on them will not have ‘had work’ by now.
It may not be documented but I just can’t see how engines with metallurgically incorrect components can last.
But with 10k miles like the Op’s car it’s tricky. It is just possible that it really hasn’t had a rebuild.
If the car is good otherwise, I’d check with Powers Performance or Str8Six what a rebuild costs these days and just be aware that you might have to find stump up that kind of money at some stage.
chrishart54 said:
How can I tell if my mk1 has had a rebuild. Nothing in the history but previous owner passed away and I don’t think his widow knew where to find his history files.
The car has proved to be 100% reliable and Steve at SD thinks it’s great. It would be nice to say it has had a rebuild but how can I tell?
In the early days of factory rebuilds there wasn't anything provided in writing. Mine had 2 in it's first 2 years and all I have is a receipt from the factory service dept for a clutch replacement done as part of the second rebuild, discounted due to engine work needed. The car has proved to be 100% reliable and Steve at SD thinks it’s great. It would be nice to say it has had a rebuild but how can I tell?
swisstoni said:
I remember back to when the original owners of Speed 6 engines were complaining on PH. And fairly shocking reading it was back then. Some engines were failing as low as 3k miles if I recall correctly!
I find it very hard to believe that any earlyish cars with a decent mileage on them will not have ‘had work’ by now.
It may not be documented but I just can’t see how engines with metallurgically incorrect components can last.
But with 10k miles like the Op’s car it’s tricky. It is just possible that it really hasn’t had a rebuild.
If the car is good otherwise, I’d check with Powers Performance or Str8Six what a rebuild costs these days and just be aware that you might have to find stump up that kind of money at some stage.
My 2002 is sitting at 49k. Str8six did a 12k service and confirmed it was running non modified finger and was a standard engine. 2003 motors onwards are often suggested to be better but I know of many 2002 motors getting past 60/70k. I find it very hard to believe that any earlyish cars with a decent mileage on them will not have ‘had work’ by now.
It may not be documented but I just can’t see how engines with metallurgically incorrect components can last.
But with 10k miles like the Op’s car it’s tricky. It is just possible that it really hasn’t had a rebuild.
If the car is good otherwise, I’d check with Powers Performance or Str8Six what a rebuild costs these days and just be aware that you might have to find stump up that kind of money at some stage.
I think the early motors and even factory rebuilds (2000-2002 ) where the most dodgy. Also if you drive it like a boxer of the same era and push it hard cold they died early. I'm also suspicious that as TVR died many a speed 6 probably had "rebuilds" that may not have been really needed as people chased revenue in a collapsing market filled with quite rightly realised engine neuroticism. It was a hot sticky mess but I meet more and more owners without rebuilds. 2 mechanics I'm chummy with say the speed 6 was vilified as a hole but " Not all of then where bad". How can a prospective buyer work out what to do, Its a bit of luck I guess but if they didn't have this rep they would all be 35-40k+
Pay through the nose for a later model or rebuilt one.
or
Take a chance on a near 200mph car for 25k and have 5-7k for and engine rebuild just in case.
I did the later. £20k 4 years ago 10k miles covered and she has only let me down once on the drive when she wet herself.
This is the game of life.
OPs car is unproven in my eyes. Its a difficult edge case.
The main issue ,that has been mentioned,is Cam follower/ rocker wear. The original rockers were often Not hardened,or possibly not correctly hardened( less likely).
I have had rather a lot of experience with overhead cam Pre War Aston engines.
When the rockers are correctly hardened,even rockers that are 50 years old work fine and only wear very slowly.
However,buy a new cam and new rockers,which all look wonderful ( and are very expensive) ,and within 500 miles it's completely f**ke*. Check Rockwell hardness of rockers, they haven't been hardened!
I buy a new Cam and another set of rockers ( different cam supplier,but only one organisation makes the forged rockers).
Cam maker says exactly what the Rockwell hardness the rockers should be for the Cam, and rocker supplier assures the vendor they are perfect.
I then test the rockers,they are soft again! .I ask the vendor,did he actually check the rockers? He says no,he trusted the rocker manufacturers!
I then get the rockers hardened ( heat treated) fit them up and have No wear issues .
So,I think this is exactly what happened to TVR .
If,you can get a Specialist to remove the Cam cover and check for wear,at 10k, in my experience it will already have obvious rocker/ cam wear if the rockers are soft .
I have had rather a lot of experience with overhead cam Pre War Aston engines.
When the rockers are correctly hardened,even rockers that are 50 years old work fine and only wear very slowly.
However,buy a new cam and new rockers,which all look wonderful ( and are very expensive) ,and within 500 miles it's completely f**ke*. Check Rockwell hardness of rockers, they haven't been hardened!
I buy a new Cam and another set of rockers ( different cam supplier,but only one organisation makes the forged rockers).
Cam maker says exactly what the Rockwell hardness the rockers should be for the Cam, and rocker supplier assures the vendor they are perfect.
I then test the rockers,they are soft again! .I ask the vendor,did he actually check the rockers? He says no,he trusted the rocker manufacturers!
I then get the rockers hardened ( heat treated) fit them up and have No wear issues .
So,I think this is exactly what happened to TVR .
If,you can get a Specialist to remove the Cam cover and check for wear,at 10k, in my experience it will already have obvious rocker/ cam wear if the rockers are soft .
Snaaakeey said:
My 2002 is sitting at 49k. Str8six did a 12k service and confirmed it was running non modified finger and was a standard engine. 2003 motors onwards are often suggested to be better but I know of many 2002 motors getting past 60/70k.
There was a change mid 2002 with a big decrease in rebuilds from then. Mine's second time in July '02 included a complete new head and no problems since.I was similarly nervous when I bought my first 2001 Tuscan. Hence I had it inspected by the expert as part of the purchase, who said the engine had never been out or rebuilt but found nothing wrong. He made a similar comment 'the early engines were not all bad'. I had the car for four years and never had an engine issue.
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