Lotus in DEEP Trouble?

Lotus in DEEP Trouble?

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Discussion

leef44

4,359 posts

152 months

Monday 9th April 2012
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900T-R said:
Really disappointed about Evo's 911 comparo verdict, too. I thought their tag line was 'the thrill of driving' - then they cut the Evora S part of the review really short by saying that yes, it does offer exactly that but the quality isn't up to Porsche standards. The very early Evora I had for a week back then was acceptable by any reasonable standard - the interior finish attracted no negative comments at all from people who were used to mass-production barges; nothing fell off or made the impression it would, switchgear felt about as 'right'as a BMW's; in fact the only thing I'd have held against it was an indifferent shift quality - and I've seen/driven enough new cars to compare. If a £60K car has a £40K interior but drives well enough to keep level with £80K cars I expect Autocar to give a balanced verdict, but given where they say they come from I'd have expected Evo to champion it on the strength of its driving - as they did 3 years ago when they declared the Evora ECOTY.

About commercial success - well, to me as with the above, plus the proliferance of Playstation controls and heavy metal folding roofs in Ferraris, and crass six-figure SUVs it's a sign the balance in the marketplace has been shifting from people who care about their driving to 'aspirational buyers' mostly from outside the old world for quite a while now. I'd have thought us petrolheads to support whatever bastions of enthusuast motoring we have left rather than to slate them for not being bl00dy Volkswagen.

It seems that in the meantime, Evo's priorities have changed somewhat.
+1
I was also a bit disappointed with EVO on the feedback given to a letter which pointed this out this month. You are right, it does seem like they have changed their priorities. I think they do different reviews with different criteria. Like in the supercar one some time back with the Noble which was rated so highly despite its inferior interior.
But in this one, it does seem they were using different criteria.

skeeterm5

3,328 posts

187 months

Monday 9th April 2012
quotequote all
900T-R said:
Like what, exactly? I've driven the Evora for hundreds of miles on end and really didn't find anything to argue with, with the exception of that gearshift, and the driveline not being the most evocative.

The levels of isolation from the surroundings and (conversely) the lumpen ride of most competitors, or when you can't find a decent driving position - those are things that start to irk after a while. A leather-covered interior panel that may have a 1 mm bigger gap on the left than it has on the right, doesn't.

Thing is, when I drive a 911 on normal roads in traffic it doesn't feel anything special to me. The Lotus did -the driving position, the steering, the ride and balance all shone right through from the moment I set off.

Conversely, I find most cars 'fun' on track. Getting towards the edge of the performance envelope of a machine is nearly always exciting/kinvolving. It's how a car feels and communicates with you at low to middling acceleration levels (both longitudinal and lateral) that defines a great car iMO.
And I acknowledge your opinion, but like I said, there are not enough people like you to buy a "one trick pony" car, which simply isnt as good a package as its price point competitors for it to be a commercial success.

Sad but econonmic reality. Unless a generous benefactor is found it is goodnight.

S

Agem

Original Poster:

132 posts

164 months

Monday 9th April 2012
quotequote all
Scale back & stay live , or charge head long for the edge of the cliff....Lotus must decied VERY shorty.........but it might be too late.
Agem

Stedman

7,213 posts

191 months

Monday 9th April 2012
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Agem said:
Sorry to upset you all, but having spoken & warned an Elise owner about the suspension problem only for him to be dead 3 hours later does tend to stick with you.

I for one will be delighted when Lotus see the light & scale back to track day cars, nothing more.

Agem
I don't mean to pry...but i'm guessing said Elise owner died BECAUSE of the suspension failure and subsequent accident?

Or are you just making things fit confused

900T-R

20,404 posts

256 months

Monday 9th April 2012
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skeeterm5 said:
And I acknowledge your opinion, but like I said, there are not enough people like you to buy a "one trick pony" car, which simply isnt as good a package as its price point competitors for it to be a commercial success.
A 'one trick pony' would be something like an Atom/Caterham R500, a completely stupid muscle car that does single digit mpg and doesn't do corners or any kind, or anything that relies on semi-slick tyres. The Evora is none of these things - it handles and rides well, is completely untemperamentful in traffic, has air bags, A/C, traction control, properly good seats and good accommodation for two adults at least, et cetera (in all honesty, I'd like one as a main car rather than a second or third one as the driveline simply isn't exciting or charismatic enough for a weekend/toy car IMO). To dismiss it as 'less rounded' because the shutlines of the interior trim may not be to Germanic standards while at the same time the suspensions most of its competitors make rather a meal out of the state of today's roads - well, er, I thought the main purpose of a car was driving it...

But then again, I've never understood the fascination with expensive watches, either. To me, engineering quality only counts for something if it enhances what a machine does instead of being a goal in itself.

Agem

Original Poster:

132 posts

164 months

Monday 9th April 2012
quotequote all
Yes, he was an America, nice guy, nice Mom, Nice sister, nice girlfriend........i talked to him often & i waned him (& other) of the problem.....he chatted to me, asked if i like to phone him & went for a drive...

Later i saw the news up on the US BB that an Elise had crashed & driver killed...it was him. From what we know he was coming back down a road with a few slight curves brisk but not fast.....suddenly his Elise "snapped" sideways into the path of a Pick up truck used by the local eletric company.

The pick up driver tried to brake etc but he was towing a heavy equipment thus limted....he ran over the top of the Elise....He died like Rinit.
Mike

skeeterm5

3,328 posts

187 months

Monday 9th April 2012
quotequote all
900T-R said:
A 'one trick pony' would be something like an Atom/Caterham R500, a completely stupid muscle car that does single digit mpg and doesn't do corners or any kind, or anything that relies on semi-slick tyres. The Evora is none of these things - it handles and rides well, is completely untemperamentful in traffic, has air bags, A/C, traction control, properly good seats and good accommodation for two adults at least, et cetera (in all honesty, I'd like one as a main car rather than a second or third one as the driveline simply isn't exciting or charismatic enough for a weekend/toy car IMO). To dismiss it as 'less rounded' because the shutlines of the interior trim may not be to Germanic standards while at the same time the suspensions most of its competitors make rather a meal out of the state of today's roads - well, er, I thought the main purpose of a car was driving it...

But then again, I've never understood the fascination with expensive watches, either. To me, engineering quality only counts for something if it enhances what a machine does instead of being a goal in itself.
We dont need to agree, but the market talks. Nobody is buying them, where as the germans et al are selling shed loads. QED.

S

900T-R

20,404 posts

256 months

Monday 9th April 2012
quotequote all
Don't forget the Germans need to sell shedloads because they operate on totally different scales to Lotus or any specialist manufacturer. No comparison.

I reckon Sony also sell a thousand times as many loudspeakers as Avantgarde Acoustic... no prizes for guessing what's gracing my living room though. smile

Redlake27

2,255 posts

243 months

Tuesday 10th April 2012
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I'm not sure this is what Bahar had in mind to extend the brand....


Proton get Youngman (the company that was trying to buy Saab) to build Protons in China. It licences the Lotus brand to them, and they use London iconic images to flog it as a British car in China!

http://l5.youngmanlotus.com/home.html


Then Youngman and Proton negotiate a deal where a top F1 team wants to carry their car logos to beat Mercedes Benz, Ferrari and co.....and don't now have to pay one penny for the brand association for 5 years!

I think Bahar and Lopez have been outsmarted by Youngman!

EL77

622 posts

211 months

Wednesday 11th April 2012
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Anything DB is involved in will go down the pan.

Man's a Helmet with only his pocket in mind!!

sisu

2,576 posts

172 months

Thursday 12th April 2012
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Lotus PR adding fuel to the fire on facebook after sniffpetrol made fun of them.

sisu

2,576 posts

172 months

Thursday 12th April 2012
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Dany Bahar in a recent press interview

Toaster

2,938 posts

192 months

Thursday 12th April 2012
quotequote all
Agem said:
Sorry to upset you all, but having spoken & warned an Elise owner about the suspension problem only for him to be dead 3 hours later does tend to stick with you.

I for one will be delighted when Lotus see the light & scale back to track day cars, nothing more.

Agem
Agem or Mike/Liverpool as you are known on another Lotus web site

The guys on Lotus Talk were not impressed with your posting announcing Lotus had gone bust, erm no they haven't, they may do but they haven't done so yet. You did the same on this site there is no problem with anyone wanting to learn about different Manufactures and having an Intelligent comment or a bit of fun and holding opinions about motoring nothing is perfect even VW, Porsche BMW (and I have had rear spring failure on a Z4 which took the Garage a year to find and fix).

But you appear fixated on trashing Lotus, where is your evidence of failure to rear drive shafts falling out of the transmission and the suspension problems? You so wisely tell people of, point us all to the evidence. I can tell you the De-Dion Tube on a Caterham can collapse but as long as it is checked when you have the car serviced there should not be a problem and its well documented on Blatchat.

In the main on this site you are talking to enthusiastic intelligent people who share their experiences and knowledge, are Motoring enthusiasts who own or would like to own a sports/performance car and care about the industry. I suspect you do not have one ounce of engineering qualification but are prepared to trash the people who work at lotus who's Job's are in jeopardy,

Its Shamefull that you would be delighted to see Lotus shrink and do not want a British company to succeed and that makes your comments as bad as any poor management decision.

Edited by Toaster on Thursday 12th April 18:40

Agem

Original Poster:

132 posts

164 months

Thursday 12th April 2012
quotequote all
Just thought they like to know..........

Lotus have lost money on ever car they sold, £200 million +........What you want, or what i want now doesn't matter......Do you know anyone whom stump up another £500 million?

I think they kill the company at the end of the month, Engineering will be spun off & road cars killed. I think the problem was they had no where to go....I mean go to Autocar & read the Group test on the Toyota/Scooby 86 thing...

High power:- 911/R8/GTR
Mid Power:- Boxster/Cayman/BMW
Lower Power:- VW & every Hothatch going....

With the expection of Track day cars & Tarmac rally...i can't see a place for them........like TVR, time caught up to them.
Mike

sisu

2,576 posts

172 months

Friday 13th April 2012
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  • facepalm* companies spend money - even ones in the ste like Lotus. This was part of a 5 yr plan and they are budgeting for £500mil over 5 years, so technically they are doing quite well - £200mil over 3yrs. But hey don't let this get in the way of your one man hate campaign.
As for TVR well considering this whole site developed out of a TVR message board that would seem to have passed you by too.
The stuff up is well documented, I think the russian kid still technically owns it. But others have condensed the core aspects of what works and sourced a stonking engine instead of their own.
The 'new' TVR Sagaris with a Vette V8 is doing quite well, £100,000 to you sir wink

But I know you like VWs so this wouldn't be your cuppa tea

NickVyse

28 posts

143 months

Friday 13th April 2012
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Agem said:
With the expection of Track day cars & Tarmac rally...i can't see a place for them........like TVR, time caught up to them.
Mike
If they went back to the original Chapman ethos I see a growing market for them. The Bahar plan was and is fatally flawed IMO. And as others have said, nothing caught up with TVR except the cost and consequences of building their own engines, instead of buying in raw reliable power, which they didn't seem to understand was one of their core appeals.

grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Friday 13th April 2012
quotequote all
NickVyse said:
Stuff.
How can you agree so much and disagree just the same?

Lotus had history. Had. Rover went under when making their best cars. So did TVR, better placed to take on Porsche and the Italians (product, speed, leather, boot for golf clubs, etc). What did Lotus (cars) really have? A track toy. The Atom was their real competition. On the roads the MX5 mullered them. And they didn't/don't have the capacity to out-produce Mazda.

NickVyse

28 posts

143 months

Friday 13th April 2012
quotequote all
grumbledoak said:
How can you agree so much and disagree just the same?

Lotus had history. Had. Rover went under when making their best cars. So did TVR, better placed to take on Porsche and the Italians (product, speed, leather, boot for golf clubs, etc). What did Lotus (cars) really have? A track toy. The Atom was their real competition. On the roads the MX5 mullered them. And they didn't/don't have the capacity to out-produce Mazda.
Just the same way I can agree to disagree with you on the above points: Rover had far better products 40 years ago in the context of their competitors, and TVR could never hope to take on Porsche, but a big Yank V8 in a light weight exciting chassis with cool styling, well that's a whole different marketplace.

I still think Lotus has a strong brand, and it's now a growing brand in the World's future marketplace in China. I don't think competing with the big boys on their terms was the right product path. I don't have all the answers, just an opinion, but I'm not being paid a fortune to head the company.

Agem

Original Poster:

132 posts

164 months

Friday 13th April 2012
quotequote all
My Plan would be:-

Wait till £ crashes (early next year) & Petrol is + £2.00 a litre

Go back to basic Elise, built in Viethan.........ship 90% finish to Hethel. Fit 3 pot Turbo motor with 7 speed box.

Many smiles & miles per gallon, yes there are a lot of old Ex fleet GTI's ST,etc but they only do 25-30 mpg. With fuel rocketting they be driven off the road & their owners forced into high (Slow) MPG cars.

Mike

nickfrog

20,871 posts

216 months

Friday 13th April 2012
quotequote all
Agem said:
Wait till £ crashes (early next year)
Crash against which currency ? What makes you think £ can go even lower than €1.20 for instance.

I have a few euros that I am contemplating converting back to Sterling so I could really do with solid advice as most
people I speak to about it have given up predicting £ trends 2/3 years ago and won't even entertain advising me...


Edited by nickfrog on Saturday 14th April 01:11