The cloudy future of the German Car industry gets worse..
Discussion
mikeiow said:
What eAyeAddio said.
ICEs will ultimately be relegated to track day fun. Many years away, yes, & sorry to break it to you, but those who cannot see advantages in EVs are the blinkered luddites of this generation!
There are few advantages that I can see. The pollution caused is not immediately apparent. Currently they are cheap to run, because politicians are making it so. When they no longer have the income from fuel duty, they will add it to EV charging, and you will end up exactly where you are now. Currently they will be allowed into city centres. That is another political decision. One day they will ban all private cars from city centres to force you onto public transport. Since you boys clearly enjoy being forced to do things, you may like that. ICEs will ultimately be relegated to track day fun. Many years away, yes, & sorry to break it to you, but those who cannot see advantages in EVs are the blinkered luddites of this generation!
There are many disadvantages, some of which I mentioned, and I note that no solutions to those are being suggested. It's worth emphasizing the weight. Moving exponentially heavier vehicles around is perverse, and any energy cost savings only arise because the market is distorted. It is, to use the fashionable expression, 'unsustainable'. Lighter is unquestionably the way to go, and the fact that after colossal investment and significant time, battery efficiency has not been significantly improved, is why I suggest that the tech doesn't work. The car manufacturers are not making these to meet customer demand, they are making them because the politicians are forcing them to.
Name any other advantage you are aware of, and let's discuss it. Up to and including combatting so-called MMGW, if you wish, though that is a long and detailed conversation. Most arguments presented here seem to me to amount to this. It's the future because it's the future, innit?
You call me a Luddite. The Luddites led a revolution against crushing deprivation and slavery conditions. This manifested itself in smashing new machinery which could be operated by unskilled labour. Good or bad, the immediate economic benefit of the machinery was obvious. This is not the case for the EV. I have already said, the hydrogen fuel cell is a far more promising technology. I am not against that.
EV is a pure political initiative which we are supposed to support not for good reasons, but because we will be socially ostracised if we don't, like a witch hunt, or McCarthyism. I object to terms like Climate Change Denier, because I see that as a carefully crafted slogan, intended to compare sceptics with Nazis, for the use of the gullible. It is used as an argument block by mindless mobs, and I am sure that none of you good people would wish to be party to that kind of behaviour.
Edited by cardigankid on Friday 1st November 15:23
EVs aren't really changing much.
Most are very large and expensive. so we're replacing ICE with the iPhone of cars: a luxurious, large footprint, heavy Tesla that depletes resources of precious metals and consumes vast quantities of water and power to manufacture. great for the gear heads on here. Emissions, though lower, are relocated to the power station.
If we're serious about change it'll need public transport and use of really small cars; uniform transportation pods that can form road trains to travel at constant speed and minimise drag. BEV SUVs are a fudge.
Most are very large and expensive. so we're replacing ICE with the iPhone of cars: a luxurious, large footprint, heavy Tesla that depletes resources of precious metals and consumes vast quantities of water and power to manufacture. great for the gear heads on here. Emissions, though lower, are relocated to the power station.
If we're serious about change it'll need public transport and use of really small cars; uniform transportation pods that can form road trains to travel at constant speed and minimise drag. BEV SUVs are a fudge.
Readers of this forum and folk who take thier GT3s to track days are the minuscule minority of people in the world requiring transport, and their opinions will count as such. There is a transportation revolution coming and it will be driven by governments and the markets - Big oil stocks are being regarded as as toxic as tobacco and the transition to electricity is unstoppable. The transition is being led by the US where the number of wind and solar farms is astonishing, turning on its head the American addiction to oil. The change is happening whether people here like it or not.
CABC said:
EVs aren't really changing much.
Most are very large and expensive. so we're replacing ICE with the iPhone of cars: a luxurious, large footprint, heavy Tesla that depletes resources of precious metals and consumes vast quantities of water and power to manufacture. great for the gear heads on here. Emissions, though lower, are relocated to the power station.
If we're serious about change it'll need public transport and use of really small cars; uniform transportation pods that can form road trains to travel at constant speed and minimise drag. BEV SUVs are a fudge.
keep on spouting the same old nonsenseMost are very large and expensive. so we're replacing ICE with the iPhone of cars: a luxurious, large footprint, heavy Tesla that depletes resources of precious metals and consumes vast quantities of water and power to manufacture. great for the gear heads on here. Emissions, though lower, are relocated to the power station.
If we're serious about change it'll need public transport and use of really small cars; uniform transportation pods that can form road trains to travel at constant speed and minimise drag. BEV SUVs are a fudge.
all manufacturing uses energy and water, aluminium production is about as bad as anything else
Tesla's power use is pretty much 100% zero emission, as are many BEV drivers who move over to the lower rate tarrifs like octopus EV
also just about everything in a BEVs battery is recyclable
there's no point making forms of transport people dont want, they wont buy or use them, there is however a big demand for small cars like the Zoe and Pug 208, peugeot where expecting 5-10% of all 208s being BEV, 30% of preorders are BEV
What can I say? 'Recyclable' does not mean that it will be recycled, just greenwash. And we are going to stop manufacturing, are we? The bubble cars people refer to may happen, but they will need carbon fibre or plastics, which will mean oil. And on that topic, oil is not about to run out, and indeed oil shares (Aramco?) are probably worth a punt. I was being told in the 1970's that we were at peak oil and by the year 2000 oil would have run out. All bulls
t.
As to the materials involved, toxic heavy metals involved include acid, lead, nickel, lithium, cadmium, alkaline, mercury and nickel metal hydride. I quote from the Guardian:-
"As countries the world over legislate to phase out petrol and diesel cars, attention is turning to the environmental impact of mining the materials needed for electric vehicle batteries.
This additional scrutiny has largely focused on ethical concerns with cobalt and lithium supply chains, despite Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s observation last year that the lithium ion batteries his vehicles use are mostly made of nickel and graphite, with lithium itself merely “the salt on the salad”.
But the extraction of nickel – predominately mined in Australia, Canada, Indonesia, Russia and the Philippines – comes at an environmental and health cost.
Plumes of sulphur dioxide choking the skies, churned earth blanketed in cancerous dust, rivers running blood-red – environmental campaigners have painted a grim picture of the nickel mines and smelters feeding the electric vehicle industry."
That's before any consideration is given to 'recycling' or disposal.
There are undoubtedly major environmental problems in the world, however the entirely bogus focus on carbon emissions is providing an excuse to politicians to do nothing, because taking real action would be far more difficult and most importantly impact on the business interests who fund them.
As to the anticipation of orders for EV's, we'll see. Where are they going to be charged, for a start?
t. As to the materials involved, toxic heavy metals involved include acid, lead, nickel, lithium, cadmium, alkaline, mercury and nickel metal hydride. I quote from the Guardian:-
"As countries the world over legislate to phase out petrol and diesel cars, attention is turning to the environmental impact of mining the materials needed for electric vehicle batteries.
This additional scrutiny has largely focused on ethical concerns with cobalt and lithium supply chains, despite Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s observation last year that the lithium ion batteries his vehicles use are mostly made of nickel and graphite, with lithium itself merely “the salt on the salad”.
But the extraction of nickel – predominately mined in Australia, Canada, Indonesia, Russia and the Philippines – comes at an environmental and health cost.
Plumes of sulphur dioxide choking the skies, churned earth blanketed in cancerous dust, rivers running blood-red – environmental campaigners have painted a grim picture of the nickel mines and smelters feeding the electric vehicle industry."
That's before any consideration is given to 'recycling' or disposal.
There are undoubtedly major environmental problems in the world, however the entirely bogus focus on carbon emissions is providing an excuse to politicians to do nothing, because taking real action would be far more difficult and most importantly impact on the business interests who fund them.
As to the anticipation of orders for EV's, we'll see. Where are they going to be charged, for a start?
Edited by cardigankid on Friday 1st November 16:40
Dave Hedgehog said:
keep on spouting the same old nonsense
i will thank you.we're on the early part of a journey and i like to question how we go about things. we need change, but i don't want happy clappy greenwash solutions, which is what i fear we're getting. if we don't ask questions we'll end up drinking another form of kool aid.
good for you signing up to Octopus Engenie. but if everyone did that it couldn't be renewable would it? not that i'm criticising them one bit, just putting it in context.
Zoe and Pugs are more like it, significantly less impact than a Tesla. I suspect we need a new RFL and that should be more mileage based and factored by the total environmental cost per mile. Don't get me wrong, i truly applaud what the Tesla guys have achieved, especially on the technology and infrastructure side. But Elon built a large luxury item for Californians to feel good about themselves, and of course he needed a premium product to make more money. Someone, and i'd be happy for it to be Tesla, needs to build decent small EVs.
of course many things are recyclable. Like TetraPaks. that until recently all ended up in landfill, and even now many do i suspect. and at what cost to separate out the plastic and aluminium? individual vehicles are the problem. i have several of them and i'm conflicted!
abzmike said:
Readers of this forum and folk who take thier GT3s to track days are the minuscule minority of people in the world requiring transport, and their opinions will count as such. There is a transportation revolution coming and it will be driven by governments and the markets - Big oil stocks are being regarded as as toxic as tobacco and the transition to electricity is unstoppable. The transition is being led by the US where the number of wind and solar farms is astonishing, turning on its head the American addiction to oil. The change is happening whether people here like it or not.
God Almighty. If the transportation revolution comes it will be driven by the markets, yes. But tobacco stocks are not toxic, curiously, they made Neil Woodford a superhero, and I suspect that the demise of big oil is much exaggerated. You go onto a building site and take away the diesel and see what happens. Or go to an airport and tell Ryanair that they can use electricity or rubber bands. These guys are flying 737’s not drones. As to America, it is the land of the free in a way most of us in the Soviet Socialist Republic of England struggle to understand. If they want to generate power on their ranch they just f
king do it, they don’t need a licence from the network supplier. It does not mean that they are abandoning oil, far from it.cardigankid said:
God Almighty.
If the transportation revolution comes it will be driven by the markets, yes. But tobacco stocks are not toxic, curiously, they made Neil Woodford a superhero, and I suspect that the demise of big oil is much exaggerated. You go onto a building site and take away the diesel and see what happens. Or go to an airport and tell Ryanair that they can use electricity or rubber bands. These guys are flying 737’s not drones. As to America, it is the land of the free in a way most of us in the Soviet Socialist Republic of England struggle to understand. If they want to generate power on their ranch they just fking do it, they don’t need a licence from the network supplier. It does not mean that they are abandoning oil, far from it.
My point being that personal transportation - cars for most of us - is low hanging fruit for electrification. Politicians will use it as an environment lever to show that they are ‘doing something’ in many parts of the world. Sound and commercial products are already available that provide for the majority of use cases. Governments and the markets will ensure uptake of these is rapid. Of course we all know that oil will not disappear, but it will increasingly be used for purposes that electricity does not suit so well, like industry, construction and air transport. There is nothing preventing virtual removal of car ICEs within 10 years - except the inertia of the second hand and vintage market. To be clear, I think that is a shame, but it is inevitable.If the transportation revolution comes it will be driven by the markets, yes. But tobacco stocks are not toxic, curiously, they made Neil Woodford a superhero, and I suspect that the demise of big oil is much exaggerated. You go onto a building site and take away the diesel and see what happens. Or go to an airport and tell Ryanair that they can use electricity or rubber bands. These guys are flying 737’s not drones. As to America, it is the land of the free in a way most of us in the Soviet Socialist Republic of England struggle to understand. If they want to generate power on their ranch they just f
king do it, they don’t need a licence from the network supplier. It does not mean that they are abandoning oil, far from it.Well, I think it is a shame also, as well as tokenism and pointless. These things are of no use to a lot of people, are chronically inefficient, and only appear environmentally friendly because the environmental consequences don’t occur directly in front of them.
Do you think that the big mining interests don’t have a hand in this as well?
Do you think that the big mining interests don’t have a hand in this as well?
cardigankid said:
eAyeAddio said:
I just don't get why some people are so opposed to electric cars......... Have you seen the performance figures for the Porsche Taycan?.......... They are astonishing.
An all-electric Taycan is the only car capable of out-performing (0 - 60 mph) my motorbike at sub 3 secs ......
And surely there are no complaints about it's top-speed?........ Even it's range and a battery recharge time of 80% in 20 mins. is perfectly acceptable......
There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers on this forum and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life - the days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
....... wrong answer............ You are the one who needs to wake up........... You're wrong.......... You have no idea, not the remotest clue,......... An all-electric Taycan is the only car capable of out-performing (0 - 60 mph) my motorbike at sub 3 secs ......
And surely there are no complaints about it's top-speed?........ Even it's range and a battery recharge time of 80% in 20 mins. is perfectly acceptable......
There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers on this forum and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life - the days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life.
The days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
You could make a start by doing some research; the facts are out there but it would be a great deal easier to remove your head from the sand first.
Most people in here are naturally petrolheads.
Can anybody sit and tell me that ice vehicles are good for the environment?
Is the environment something to be looked after?
Does something need to change? Even if it is our pride and joy? Or just keep burning fossil fuels and ignore the science?
Sticking your head in the sand and pretending everything is ok is just harming our childrens future. Electric may not be the ideal solution, and there are still issues with it. But it is a step.
We just need more steps, forwards not backwards though.
Can anybody sit and tell me that ice vehicles are good for the environment?
Is the environment something to be looked after?
Does something need to change? Even if it is our pride and joy? Or just keep burning fossil fuels and ignore the science?
Sticking your head in the sand and pretending everything is ok is just harming our childrens future. Electric may not be the ideal solution, and there are still issues with it. But it is a step.
We just need more steps, forwards not backwards though.
eAyeAddio said:
cardigankid said:
eAyeAddio said:
I just don't get why some people are so opposed to electric cars......... Have you seen the performance figures for the Porsche Taycan?.......... They are astonishing.
An all-electric Taycan is the only car capable of out-performing (0 - 60 mph) my motorbike at sub 3 secs ......
And surely there are no complaints about it's top-speed?........ Even it's range and a battery recharge time of 80% in 20 mins. is perfectly acceptable......
There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers on this forum and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life - the days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
....... wrong answer............ You are the one who needs to wake up........... You're wrong.......... You have no idea, not the remotest clue,......... An all-electric Taycan is the only car capable of out-performing (0 - 60 mph) my motorbike at sub 3 secs ......
And surely there are no complaints about it's top-speed?........ Even it's range and a battery recharge time of 80% in 20 mins. is perfectly acceptable......
There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers on this forum and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life - the days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life.
The days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
You could make a start by doing some research; the facts are out there but it would be a great deal easier to remove your head from the sand first.
The facts are indeed out there. I have done research, and my view is that the government are lying to us. Pollution is harmful. CO2 is not. The planet is not warming up, actually it is cooling down. The problem is that people like you accept everything they are told by officialdom as fact. Greta Thunberg is just a sad little girl.
Unless fuel from air technology becomes viable. This has been worked on for some time and they have even began to work on devices that work in the same way as leaf. Directly converting the suns energy into usable fuel.
Modern ICE cars are very good on emissions, we already ready have the infrastructure for them in place and if fuel can be produced in carbon neutral way, they will be a viable alternative to electric cars.
Modern ICE cars are very good on emissions, we already ready have the infrastructure for them in place and if fuel can be produced in carbon neutral way, they will be a viable alternative to electric cars.
As one of those GT3 people who actually track cars I am sadly convinced that the era is ending. Not just because of the emissions issue either.
(1) The world is becoming increasingly urbanized in many places. Very prevalent in North America with small towns dying everywhere.
(2) 5G is just a blip now but will launch a huge range of high speed services only available in dense areas
(3) fewer young people are getting drivers’ licenses.
(4) more and more cities are restricting cars
(5) Taycan. - when a company like Porsche goes electric we are screwed.
(6) society pressures. I now feel a bit uneasy having multiple cars. I drove a Panamera Turbo into Berlin in the summer and ran smack into a huge anti-ICE demo.
I think the era of the private car in the next
20 years will change drastically. It was a helluva run-from the jalopies of my youth to the raw cars to the performance stuff now. For the first time in decades I do not have a planned car. Maybe one more RS but even then it would be my last.
At some stage I suppose some kind of intelligent EV for geriatrics might show up and I could sit in the back and read the paper - but there will be no papers any more. Stop off for a ham sandwich and find that the Ham has been replaced with tofu.
Brave new world.
(1) The world is becoming increasingly urbanized in many places. Very prevalent in North America with small towns dying everywhere.
(2) 5G is just a blip now but will launch a huge range of high speed services only available in dense areas
(3) fewer young people are getting drivers’ licenses.
(4) more and more cities are restricting cars
(5) Taycan. - when a company like Porsche goes electric we are screwed.
(6) society pressures. I now feel a bit uneasy having multiple cars. I drove a Panamera Turbo into Berlin in the summer and ran smack into a huge anti-ICE demo.
I think the era of the private car in the next
20 years will change drastically. It was a helluva run-from the jalopies of my youth to the raw cars to the performance stuff now. For the first time in decades I do not have a planned car. Maybe one more RS but even then it would be my last.
At some stage I suppose some kind of intelligent EV for geriatrics might show up and I could sit in the back and read the paper - but there will be no papers any more. Stop off for a ham sandwich and find that the Ham has been replaced with tofu.
Brave new world.
cardigankid said:
Mark my words, we are turning into a nation of robots, governed by plebiscite and orchestrated mass demonstration, with children subject to relentless one sided unreasoning propaganda. It's like the early stages of Nazi Germany.
'First they came for the car owners.....' as Bonhoeffer might have said.
Which politically exposed victim group is next?
And we, the Great British have become a nation of nodding Churchill dogs, Yes-Men, compliant sheep, ironically wearing t-shirts with slogans like 'Dare to be Different!'. Is this what Britain fought the Second World War for? It's hard to believe it is the same country.
As far as I am concerned they can stick their electric Porsches so far up their back passages that they can clean the headlights with their toothbrushes. I can't believe I am alone in that.
Technological revolution, like the Wheel, like the Bronze Age, like the Iron Age, like Steam, like the Horseless Carriage, happened because the new technology was so much better than the old that the old was redundant. These were big revolutions that affected many people. This is not the same. The 'new' (actually rather older) technology of electric drive was tried many times and found inadequate. That is why it has never been adopted. It is not better, it is demonstrably worse, nor is it in any way environmentally friendly, but we are to be forced into it because particular interest groups and their three and sixpenny politicians tell us its for our own good. And we are all supposed to adopt the Emperor's New Clothes so we can feel good about ourselves and get praise from our puppetmasters. Because that is all most of us are, puppets who do as we are told even when that means saying black is white.
All the car manufacturers are to be forced to spend many tens of billions to produce rubbish most of us don't want to buy. Who will cover their losses this time?
This is the result of political ‘correctness’. Companies do not what is commercially viable but what the politicians tell them to do. Whole industries spring up not because they serve a real need, but because the government is prepared to throw huge sums of money (our money, incidentally) at them. That is the real legacy of Tony Blair and that halfwit bully Gordon Brown. Then they crow about their successes, which are totally contrived. They fund their pet projects, and become the country's biggest customer, acting surprised when everyone agrees with them. Of course they agree with them, the customer is always right. The whole economy is rigged. And when the money runs out, as it inevitably does, because politicians are not business people, they quietly walk away, the companies are left to sink, while the politicians move on to the House of Lords. And this country, on that basis, is going to compete in the world as a trading nation? Trading what, hot air - its the only commodity we have loads of? Pull the other one.
This is a sad thing.'First they came for the car owners.....' as Bonhoeffer might have said.
Which politically exposed victim group is next?
And we, the Great British have become a nation of nodding Churchill dogs, Yes-Men, compliant sheep, ironically wearing t-shirts with slogans like 'Dare to be Different!'. Is this what Britain fought the Second World War for? It's hard to believe it is the same country.
As far as I am concerned they can stick their electric Porsches so far up their back passages that they can clean the headlights with their toothbrushes. I can't believe I am alone in that.
Technological revolution, like the Wheel, like the Bronze Age, like the Iron Age, like Steam, like the Horseless Carriage, happened because the new technology was so much better than the old that the old was redundant. These were big revolutions that affected many people. This is not the same. The 'new' (actually rather older) technology of electric drive was tried many times and found inadequate. That is why it has never been adopted. It is not better, it is demonstrably worse, nor is it in any way environmentally friendly, but we are to be forced into it because particular interest groups and their three and sixpenny politicians tell us its for our own good. And we are all supposed to adopt the Emperor's New Clothes so we can feel good about ourselves and get praise from our puppetmasters. Because that is all most of us are, puppets who do as we are told even when that means saying black is white.
All the car manufacturers are to be forced to spend many tens of billions to produce rubbish most of us don't want to buy. Who will cover their losses this time?
This is the result of political ‘correctness’. Companies do not what is commercially viable but what the politicians tell them to do. Whole industries spring up not because they serve a real need, but because the government is prepared to throw huge sums of money (our money, incidentally) at them. That is the real legacy of Tony Blair and that halfwit bully Gordon Brown. Then they crow about their successes, which are totally contrived. They fund their pet projects, and become the country's biggest customer, acting surprised when everyone agrees with them. Of course they agree with them, the customer is always right. The whole economy is rigged. And when the money runs out, as it inevitably does, because politicians are not business people, they quietly walk away, the companies are left to sink, while the politicians move on to the House of Lords. And this country, on that basis, is going to compete in the world as a trading nation? Trading what, hot air - its the only commodity we have loads of? Pull the other one.
Edited by cardigankid on Sunday 20th October 15:02
hureciamirl1935 said:
cardigankid said:
Mark my words, we are turning into a nation of robots, governed by plebiscite and orchestrated mass demonstration, with children subject to relentless one sided unreasoning propaganda. It's like the early stages of Nazi Germany.
'First they came for the car owners.....' as Bonhoeffer might have said.
Which politically exposed victim group is next?
And we, the Great British have become a nation of nodding Churchill dogs, Yes-Men, compliant sheep, ironically wearing t-shirts with slogans like 'Dare to be Different!'. Is this what Britain fought the Second World War for? It's hard to believe it is the same country.
As far as I am concerned they can stick their electric Porsches so far up their back passages that they can clean the headlights with their toothbrushes. I can't believe I am alone in that.
Technological revolution, like the Wheel, like the Bronze Age, like the Iron Age, like Steam, like the Horseless Carriage, happened because the new technology was so much better than the old that the old was redundant. These were big revolutions that affected many people. This is not the same. The 'new' (actually rather older) technology of electric drive was tried many times and found inadequate. That is why it has never been adopted. It is not better, it is demonstrably worse, nor is it in any way environmentally friendly, but we are to be forced into it because particular interest groups and their three and sixpenny politicians tell us its for our own good. And we are all supposed to adopt the Emperor's New Clothes so we can feel good about ourselves and get praise from our puppetmasters. Because that is all most of us are, puppets who do as we are told even when that means saying black is white.
All the car manufacturers are to be forced to spend many tens of billions to produce rubbish most of us don't want to buy. Who will cover their losses this time?
This is the result of political ‘correctness’. Companies do not what is commercially viable but what the politicians tell them to do. Whole industries spring up not because they serve a real need, but because the government is prepared to throw huge sums of money (our money, incidentally) at them. That is the real legacy of Tony Blair and that halfwit bully Gordon Brown. Then they crow about their successes, which are totally contrived. They fund their pet projects, and become the country's biggest customer, acting surprised when everyone agrees with them. Of course they agree with them, the customer is always right. The whole economy is rigged. And when the money runs out, as it inevitably does, because politicians are not business people, they quietly walk away, the companies are left to sink, while the politicians move on to the House of Lords. And this country, on that basis, is going to compete in the world as a trading nation? Trading what, hot air - its the only commodity we have loads of? Pull the other one.
This is a sad thing.'First they came for the car owners.....' as Bonhoeffer might have said.
Which politically exposed victim group is next?
And we, the Great British have become a nation of nodding Churchill dogs, Yes-Men, compliant sheep, ironically wearing t-shirts with slogans like 'Dare to be Different!'. Is this what Britain fought the Second World War for? It's hard to believe it is the same country.
As far as I am concerned they can stick their electric Porsches so far up their back passages that they can clean the headlights with their toothbrushes. I can't believe I am alone in that.
Technological revolution, like the Wheel, like the Bronze Age, like the Iron Age, like Steam, like the Horseless Carriage, happened because the new technology was so much better than the old that the old was redundant. These were big revolutions that affected many people. This is not the same. The 'new' (actually rather older) technology of electric drive was tried many times and found inadequate. That is why it has never been adopted. It is not better, it is demonstrably worse, nor is it in any way environmentally friendly, but we are to be forced into it because particular interest groups and their three and sixpenny politicians tell us its for our own good. And we are all supposed to adopt the Emperor's New Clothes so we can feel good about ourselves and get praise from our puppetmasters. Because that is all most of us are, puppets who do as we are told even when that means saying black is white.
All the car manufacturers are to be forced to spend many tens of billions to produce rubbish most of us don't want to buy. Who will cover their losses this time?
This is the result of political ‘correctness’. Companies do not what is commercially viable but what the politicians tell them to do. Whole industries spring up not because they serve a real need, but because the government is prepared to throw huge sums of money (our money, incidentally) at them. That is the real legacy of Tony Blair and that halfwit bully Gordon Brown. Then they crow about their successes, which are totally contrived. They fund their pet projects, and become the country's biggest customer, acting surprised when everyone agrees with them. Of course they agree with them, the customer is always right. The whole economy is rigged. And when the money runs out, as it inevitably does, because politicians are not business people, they quietly walk away, the companies are left to sink, while the politicians move on to the House of Lords. And this country, on that basis, is going to compete in the world as a trading nation? Trading what, hot air - its the only commodity we have loads of? Pull the other one.
Edited by cardigankid on Sunday 20th October 15:02
cardigankid said:
The facts are indeed out there. I have done research, and my view is that the government are lying to us. Pollution is harmful. CO2 is not. The planet is not warming up, actually it is cooling down. The problem is that people like you accept everything they are told by officialdom as fact. Greta Thunberg is just a sad little girl.
On the other end of the spectrum you sound like a sad old fossil.Gassing Station | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff