The cloudy future of the German Car industry gets worse..
Discussion
cardigankid said:
I’d be interested to hear what cars you are enthusiastic about.
I’m a car enthusiast and I do care about the environment. We face a suite of important challenges, including pollution, congestion, public health, education, waste and poverty. Eliminating ICE does not resolve any of those issues. You will note my list does not include Climate Change, which I consider a bogus political construct.
Personally I can’t see much to be enthusiastic about in EV or PHEV. Drove a couple, thought they felt like glorified milk floats, that was it, but I am open to discussion.
I’ve followed this thread with interest and there are many good points, but stating climate change is a political construct is a bridge too far. I don’t want to get into the reasons (because it’s been done to death elsewhere), but the change is real and happening now. I currently own an old 993 and a 17 plate RS6 PE, but I’m beginning to feel like a dinosaur when I’m out and about. More negative comments than I’ve experienced before and a realisation that there is now a clear shift in public opinion. I think the writing is on the wall whatever you think. I’m a car enthusiast and I do care about the environment. We face a suite of important challenges, including pollution, congestion, public health, education, waste and poverty. Eliminating ICE does not resolve any of those issues. You will note my list does not include Climate Change, which I consider a bogus political construct.
Personally I can’t see much to be enthusiastic about in EV or PHEV. Drove a couple, thought they felt like glorified milk floats, that was it, but I am open to discussion.
I live in France and lots of my friends with modern ICE sports cars/drivers cars and more and more getting this same reaction when they are out and about, and this is leading some to sell their modern cars.
However they're not trading them in for EVs but for older classic ICE sports cars/drivers cars that although effectively far more polluting do not seem to have the same stigma.
Cheers
Philip
However they're not trading them in for EVs but for older classic ICE sports cars/drivers cars that although effectively far more polluting do not seem to have the same stigma.
Cheers
Philip
I think there will be a minor surge in EVs to accommodate the cities where electric vehicles will thrive but also hybrids will have a place and the good old ice will stay too. Just a balancing out of needs and requirements.
As for the climate change guff, yes its happening in front of us. Winter, Spring Summer and Autumn. The occasional storm to fuel the hysteria and a rabid clan of worshippers to preach to us all.
As for pollution, try Kabul on a cold night. The air is blue with fumes...
As for the climate change guff, yes its happening in front of us. Winter, Spring Summer and Autumn. The occasional storm to fuel the hysteria and a rabid clan of worshippers to preach to us all.
As for pollution, try Kabul on a cold night. The air is blue with fumes...
My 17 year old niece was desperate to buy a car even though she has not got a licence yet, most of her fiends have cars, they work in burger shops, bars, warehouses to afford one.
I saw my niece and her friend on a day of an environmental school strike last year and enquirer had they taken part, neither seemed aware one had taken place and both said no one they knew took part.
I saw my niece and her friend on a day of an environmental school strike last year and enquirer had they taken part, neither seemed aware one had taken place and both said no one they knew took part.
I have preached this before - the current man made environmental change thing strikes me of the smoking ban campaigns. Trash science and misinformation pushed by campaigners with an agenda.
Now everyday we hear how traffic fumes cause respiratory problems such as asthma, heart disease, cancer and passive deaths. Exactly the same arguments used years ago in the campaign against smoking, and if vehicle use does cause these things then the data on the dangers of smoking can not be correct as this is a new discovery.
There are other such campaigns speeding being another example
Now everyday we hear how traffic fumes cause respiratory problems such as asthma, heart disease, cancer and passive deaths. Exactly the same arguments used years ago in the campaign against smoking, and if vehicle use does cause these things then the data on the dangers of smoking can not be correct as this is a new discovery.
There are other such campaigns speeding being another example
Oilchange said:
I think there will be a minor surge in EVs to accommodate the cities where electric vehicles will thrive but also hybrids will have a place and the good old ice will stay too. Just a balancing out of needs and requirements.
As for the climate change guff, yes its happening in front of us. Winter, Spring Summer and Autumn. The occasional storm to fuel the hysteria and a rabid clan of worshippers to preach to us all.
As for pollution, try Kabul on a cold night. The air is blue with fumes...
yeah fAs for the climate change guff, yes its happening in front of us. Winter, Spring Summer and Autumn. The occasional storm to fuel the hysteria and a rabid clan of worshippers to preach to us all.
As for pollution, try Kabul on a cold night. The air is blue with fumes...
k those idiot scientists what do they know, you put them in their place high IQ internet forum user !the constant lies they keep coming up with, can you head of to Antarctica with a thermometer to prove this constant b
ks wrong pleasehttps://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/02/07/...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/07/anta...
Dave Hedgehog said:
Macski said:
I have preached this before - the current man made environmental change thing strikes me of the smoking ban campaigns. Trash science and misinformation pushed by campaigners with an agenda.
what agenda has NASA and just about every scientist on the planet?If you believe that every scientist on the planet believes in man made climate change then you have been watching to much BBC.
Macski said:
I have preached this before - the current man made environmental change thing strikes me of the smoking ban campaigns. Trash science and misinformation pushed by campaigners with an agenda.
Now everyday we hear how traffic fumes cause respiratory problems such as asthma, heart disease, cancer and passive deaths. Exactly the same arguments used years ago in the campaign against smoking, and if vehicle use does cause these things then the data on the dangers of smoking can not be correct as this is a new discovery.
There are other such campaigns speeding being another example
You don’t believe the epidemiology that shows a link between smoking and lung cancer? How about chewing tobacco and mouth cancer? Now everyday we hear how traffic fumes cause respiratory problems such as asthma, heart disease, cancer and passive deaths. Exactly the same arguments used years ago in the campaign against smoking, and if vehicle use does cause these things then the data on the dangers of smoking can not be correct as this is a new discovery.
There are other such campaigns speeding being another example
Macski said:
If you believe that every scientist on the planet believes in man made climate change then you have been watching to much BBC.
Uh so Exxon, you know that lefty tree hugging company, figured out man made climate change was a thing in 1981 and buried it to make more billionshttps://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/0...
honestly if you dont get it now you are willfully misunderstanding to the cost of your kids futures.
As for the future of the German car industry they've already laid off about 55,000 people.
VW group get it but are huge and it takes a lot of time effort and money to do it.
Daimler are behind and struggling.
Porsche I think will be ok they are planning a quick transition and at least have a usable platform with the PPE etc
IMO BMW are doomed. They are making very little effort to change, literally the bare minimum allowed under legislation, and plan to be still mostly piston powered by 2030. They had a decent advantage when releasing the i3 but the company fired the then CEO, lost the talent and gave up bothering.
VW group get it but are huge and it takes a lot of time effort and money to do it.
Daimler are behind and struggling.
Porsche I think will be ok they are planning a quick transition and at least have a usable platform with the PPE etc
IMO BMW are doomed. They are making very little effort to change, literally the bare minimum allowed under legislation, and plan to be still mostly piston powered by 2030. They had a decent advantage when releasing the i3 but the company fired the then CEO, lost the talent and gave up bothering.
Daimler with even more job cutting and dropping vehicles..
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/daimler-ax-...
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/daimler-ax-...
RobDickinson said:
Daimler with even more job cutting and dropping vehicles..
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/daimler-ax-...
Given the current state of the Chinese market, is this a huge surprise?https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/daimler-ax-...
eAyeAddio said:
I just don't get why some people are so opposed to electric cars......... Have you seen the performance figures for the Porsche Taycan?.......... They are astonishing.
An all-electric Taycan is the only car capable of out-performing (0 - 60 mph) my motorbike at sub 3 secs ......
And surely there are no complaints about it's top-speed?........ Even it's range and a battery recharge time of 80% in 20 mins. is perfectly acceptable......
There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers on this forum and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life - the days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
Saw a a lovely electric Mercedes coupe in Tesco today. Looked it up and the fast charging time was at least 11 hours. No wonder he didn't bother to plug it in. Also, how manay people can afford an electric taycan? An all-electric Taycan is the only car capable of out-performing (0 - 60 mph) my motorbike at sub 3 secs ......
And surely there are no complaints about it's top-speed?........ Even it's range and a battery recharge time of 80% in 20 mins. is perfectly acceptable......
There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers on this forum and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life - the days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
cardigankid said:
Mark my words, we are turning into a nation of robots, governed by plebiscite and orchestrated mass demonstration, with children subject to relentless one sided unreasoning propaganda. It's like the early stages of Nazi Germany.
'First they came for the car owners.....' as Bonhoeffer might have said.
Which politically exposed victim group is next?
And we, the Great British have become a nation of nodding Churchill dogs, Yes-Men, compliant sheep, ironically wearing t-shirts with slogans like 'Dare to be Different!'. Is this what Britain fought the Second World War for? It's hard to believe it is the same country.
As far as I am concerned they can stick their electric Porsches so far up their back passages that they can clean the headlights with their toothbrushes. I can't believe I am alone in that.
Technological revolution, like the Wheel, like the Bronze Age, like the Iron Age, like Steam, like the Horseless Carriage, happened because the new technology was so much better than the old that the old was redundant. These were big revolutions that affected many people. This is not the same. The 'new' (actually rather older) technology of electric drive was tried many times and found inadequate. That is why it has never been adopted. It is not better, it is demonstrably worse, nor is it in any way environmentally friendly, but we are to be forced into it because particular interest groups and their three and sixpenny politicians tell us its for our own good. And we are all supposed to adopt the Emperor's New Clothes so we can feel good about ourselves and get praise from our puppetmasters. Because that is all most of us are, puppets who do as we are told even when that means saying black is white.
All the car manufacturers are to be forced to spend many tens of billions to produce rubbish most of us don't want to buy. Who will cover their losses this time?
This is the result of political ‘correctness’. Companies do not what is commercially viable but what the politicians tell them to do. Whole industries spring up not because they serve a real need, but because the government is prepared to throw huge sums of money (our money, incidentally) at them. That is the real legacy of Tony Blair and that halfwit bully Gordon Brown. Then they crow about their successes, which are totally contrived. They fund their pet projects, and become the country's biggest customer, acting surprised when everyone agrees with them. Of course they agree with them, the customer is always right. The whole economy is rigged. And when the money runs out, as it inevitably does, because politicians are not business people, they quietly walk away, the companies are left to sink, while the politicians move on to the House of Lords. And this country, on that basis, is going to compete in the world as a trading nation? Trading what, hot air - its the only commodity we have loads of? Pull the other one.
This is very well put. My biggest problem is that we are being pressurised both by a fascist government, but also by individual fascist environmentalist, who can't see beyond their agenda and who try to impose their views on us. My levels of resentment against all this are rising rapidly. I can easily see it ending in violence as these rabid, environmental nitwits attack the wrong SUV.'First they came for the car owners.....' as Bonhoeffer might have said.
Which politically exposed victim group is next?
And we, the Great British have become a nation of nodding Churchill dogs, Yes-Men, compliant sheep, ironically wearing t-shirts with slogans like 'Dare to be Different!'. Is this what Britain fought the Second World War for? It's hard to believe it is the same country.
As far as I am concerned they can stick their electric Porsches so far up their back passages that they can clean the headlights with their toothbrushes. I can't believe I am alone in that.
Technological revolution, like the Wheel, like the Bronze Age, like the Iron Age, like Steam, like the Horseless Carriage, happened because the new technology was so much better than the old that the old was redundant. These were big revolutions that affected many people. This is not the same. The 'new' (actually rather older) technology of electric drive was tried many times and found inadequate. That is why it has never been adopted. It is not better, it is demonstrably worse, nor is it in any way environmentally friendly, but we are to be forced into it because particular interest groups and their three and sixpenny politicians tell us its for our own good. And we are all supposed to adopt the Emperor's New Clothes so we can feel good about ourselves and get praise from our puppetmasters. Because that is all most of us are, puppets who do as we are told even when that means saying black is white.
All the car manufacturers are to be forced to spend many tens of billions to produce rubbish most of us don't want to buy. Who will cover their losses this time?
This is the result of political ‘correctness’. Companies do not what is commercially viable but what the politicians tell them to do. Whole industries spring up not because they serve a real need, but because the government is prepared to throw huge sums of money (our money, incidentally) at them. That is the real legacy of Tony Blair and that halfwit bully Gordon Brown. Then they crow about their successes, which are totally contrived. They fund their pet projects, and become the country's biggest customer, acting surprised when everyone agrees with them. Of course they agree with them, the customer is always right. The whole economy is rigged. And when the money runs out, as it inevitably does, because politicians are not business people, they quietly walk away, the companies are left to sink, while the politicians move on to the House of Lords. And this country, on that basis, is going to compete in the world as a trading nation? Trading what, hot air - its the only commodity we have loads of? Pull the other one.
Edited by cardigankid on Sunday 20th October 15:02
cardigankid said:
So much for saving the planet.
Petroleum is beginning to look like the clean option.
This. I've watched a documentary on the mining issues etc. and it's horrendous, criminal. On top of that, a good percentage of the electricity to run these "clean" vehicles is generated by burning wood pellets obtained from trees grown in Canada, South America etc. and transported across the Atlantic in large ships powered by diesel electric engines. Very environmentally friendly. All we are doing is exporting much of our carbon and pollution to other countries. The global effect is obvious. We are victim of the biggest con ever perpetrated because EVs are most definitely not the answer.Petroleum is beginning to look like the clean option.
lornemalvo said:
This. I've watched a documentary on the mining issues etc. and it's horrendous, criminal. On top of that, a good percentage of the electricity to run these "clean" vehicles is generated by burning wood pellets obtained from trees grown in Canada, South America etc. and transported across the Atlantic in large ships powered by diesel electric engines. Very environmentally friendly. All we are doing is exporting much of our carbon and pollution to other countries. The global effect is obvious. We are victim of the biggest con ever perpetrated because EVs are most definitely not the answer.
Worthwhile bump of a 2 year old thread…In fact there are loads in your posting history, school holidays?
same old same old being trotted out....
thing is... we have already seen the death of the IC engine. its just now were on the wind down. little main stream development on IC now, its all being focused on EV.
we have seen the shift, and its now going to accelerate. its needed... and badly.
Oh and this rubbish about pelets being shipped... where do you think the oil comes from ? and how thats shipped... yup big tankers...
a pellet is a renewable as we can grow it. and trees capture carbon.... oil is dug out the ground from a reserve that isnt being replaced. its dwindling. and hey its going to run out eventually. so maybe just maybe the smart move is going for battery...
Imagine being able to recharge off of the sun or from green sources... and yes those wooden pellets... being burned in a pwer station is more efficient than all those cars burring hydrocarbons. and then all those IC car exhausts against a couple of power stations... no competition in terms of dynamic pollution management
thing is... we have already seen the death of the IC engine. its just now were on the wind down. little main stream development on IC now, its all being focused on EV.
we have seen the shift, and its now going to accelerate. its needed... and badly.
Oh and this rubbish about pelets being shipped... where do you think the oil comes from ? and how thats shipped... yup big tankers...
a pellet is a renewable as we can grow it. and trees capture carbon.... oil is dug out the ground from a reserve that isnt being replaced. its dwindling. and hey its going to run out eventually. so maybe just maybe the smart move is going for battery...
Imagine being able to recharge off of the sun or from green sources... and yes those wooden pellets... being burned in a pwer station is more efficient than all those cars burring hydrocarbons. and then all those IC car exhausts against a couple of power stations... no competition in terms of dynamic pollution management
Dingu said:
lornemalvo said:
This. I've watched a documentary on the mining issues etc. and it's horrendous, criminal. On top of that, a good percentage of the electricity to run these "clean" vehicles is generated by burning wood pellets obtained from trees grown in Canada, South America etc. and transported across the Atlantic in large ships powered by diesel electric engines. Very environmentally friendly. All we are doing is exporting much of our carbon and pollution to other countries. The global effect is obvious. We are victim of the biggest con ever perpetrated because EVs are most definitely not the answer.
Worthwhile bump of a 2 year old thread…In fact there are loads in your posting history, school holidays?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
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