How threatened is JLR?...sounds worrying

[NomduJour]

sapf0 said:

How long before JRL go bust?

Will that be because the Defender isn’t an MB X-Class clone?

[M.F.D]

Like so many, I have been on the receiving end of JLR's customer experience centre or whatever ste they called it. Reliability, or lack thereof is abysmal. When I replaced my Disco Sport, I went elsewhere.

Wonder what the housewives of whatever the fk is 'relevant' these days will buy now??

[NMNeil]

AmitG said:

For me (as a former owner of many XJs), and talking about Jaguar specifically, it's a combination of:

• The saloons are no longer special - they are too close to the German template
• XJ is no more - and that is what I would have been interested in
• Shocking stories around reliability and dealer service - I know that you can read anything you want on the internet, but the number of first-hand accounts, including here on PH, makes it hard to dismiss

I don't really care who they are owned by. In these global times, "ownership" means less and less to me. I do care about the product, and right now the product just isn't there.

It's not just ownership, it's what they do with the name.
Sold to Ford so they simply rebadged the Lincoln LS and Thunderbird to Jaguar, and upped the price.
Sold to Tata and the all electric E-Pace will be made in Austria and China, not in the UK.
And if Tata moves production of all the JLR products overseas then it's another body blow to the British car industry, well what's left of it anyway.

[craigjm]

NMNeil said:

AmitG said:

For me (as a former owner of many XJs), and talking about Jaguar specifically, it's a combination of:

• The saloons are no longer special - they are too close to the German template
• XJ is no more - and that is what I would have been interested in
• Shocking stories around reliability and dealer service - I know that you can read anything you want on the internet, but the number of first-hand accounts, including here on PH, makes it hard to dismiss

I don't really care who they are owned by. In these global times, "ownership" means less and less to me. I do care about the product, and right now the product just isn't there.

It's not just ownership, it's what they do with the name.
Sold to Ford so they simply rebadged the Lincoln LS and Thunderbird to Jaguar, and upped the price.
Sold to Tata and the all electric E-Pace will be made in Austria and China, not in the UK.
And if Tata moves production of all the JLR products overseas then it's another body blow to the British car industry, well what's left of it anyway.

The only reason the E-Pace (and the I-Pace) are built in Austria is that JLR production techniques are frankly ancient and are not able to produce multiple models on one line. As such they didnt have capacity even though there was loads of capacity actually available with the current lines under utilised. This is an issue which goes back way before Tata ownership.

As for building cars in China, this is a requirement if you want to access the Chinese market and all the major car companies do it. There are also assembly plants in Slovakia, Brazil and India. Some for global production like Slovakia and others for local production only (India and Brazil). This is normal practice for a modern car maker. The days of throwing everything together in one factory in Coventry and then exporting them around the world are over. New emerging markets do not have the same accessibility from the UK that Europe and US had "in the good old days".

Its great to wish that everything was UK built but it just isnt realistic which is why BMW. Mercedes, Audi, Porsche etc all build cars outside of Germany and also outsource the building of some.

There is no indication that they will move all the production overseas. There is a recognition of the requirement to be British built and this is the same for VW with Bentley and BMW with Rolls Royce and Mini.

There are a few things that are important for me with the future re-imagine strategy -

They build cars people actually want to buy
The cars they build are good quality so profits are not hit by the warranty budgets
Sort out the dealers so the brand is represented well and customers feel valued
Make products which are attractive to younger people. Rolls Royce has a younger customer age than Mini. Jaguar particularly needs to do the same
They continue to employ as many British workers as possibly in supply, production, sales etc as this supports millions of other workers

The "build cars people actually want to buy" is a tough one for them. The markets where they can really make money these days do not give a rats ass about whether the car looks like a MK X, who William Lyons was etc etc. They are buying a car. There is a subset of buyers in the UK to whom this is important but those people are getting older and are not, in the main, new car buyers and therefore the company doesnt give a rats ass about them either. The same is true of Land Rover and the link to previous products, the Wilks brothers etc.

The automotive market is changing massively. We will see new entrants into the market with electric and autonomy such as Sony being talked about on another thread. If the legacy car companies dont adapt then they will die and will see a couple fail. I imagine we will see for instance a couple of the Stelantis brands closed down.

For Jaguar and Land Rover to survive, potentially as two separate companies under two different owners as I said above, they need to look to the future and build what future customers are demanding. Not only that but build them where it makes sense to make the margin they need to survive. its a tough message but thats the way it is.

Edited by craigjm on Thursday 6th January 16:22

[ettore]

NMNeil said:

I have no interest in the cars but their financials do not paint a pretty picture.

Retail unit sales:
FY 2020/21: 439,588
FY 2019/20: 508,659
FY 2018/19: 578,915

Debt:
FY 2020/21: £1.9bn
FY 2019/20: £2.2bn
FY 2018/19: £0.7bn

Revenue:
FY 2020/21: £19.7bn
FY 2019/20: £23.0bn
FY 2018/19: £24.2bn

Fewer cars sold, lower revenue and more debt, but the Annual report shows that they are concentrating more on how they have used less water and electricity in production and cut the greenhouse gas emissions, rather than how they will turn the company around.

https://www.jaguarlandrover.com/investor-relations

These include the COVID years with production shutdown as well as the current reduced volume due to the chip shortage (both of these affect everyone in different ways). JLR volume is also a slightly crude way of judging their ultimate profitability because it depends on the model mix i.e high volume of FFRR vs Disco Sport etc. Debt aside they are profitable at lower volumes these days. They also currently have two major hits on their hands with another in the wings vs an ageing, soon to be discontinued, line of saloons. Try ordering a new RR and see when it will be delivered!

JLR face significant challenges around what their future product portfolio will look like (as does every OEM) but - to misquote - reports of their death are exaggerated.

J

[ettore]

M.F.D said:

Like so many, I have been on the receiving end of JLR's customer experience centre or whatever ste they called it. Reliability, or lack thereof is abysmal. When I replaced my Disco Sport, I went elsewhere.

Wonder what the housewives of whatever the fk is 'relevant' these days will buy now??

Blimey, two stereotypes in one short post!

Conversely, since 2013 I've had an RRS, a FFRR and a Disco5 and have driven over 200K miles with no problems at all!

[DonkeyApple]

NMNeil said:

DodgyGeezer said:

TBF though the last 2 years can't have done many car manufacturers many favours

Very true.
But to me the greatest reason for the decline is that it's no longer a British company, and Jaguar has always been classed as one of the original luxury British car brands. Unfortunately being sold first to Ford and then to Tata has destroyed the mystique of the Jaguar.

I'm not sure about that. I suspect you could find some of this reasoning among old men but much of that will be excuses for not being able to afford them and instead having to go German or Korean!!

The more likely reasons are that they've simply failed to have the right products for the right customers. They excluded themselves from most shopping lists back when everyone wanted a diesel and they didn't have a proper diesel offering. They excluded themselves from the fleet side with the XE because they could never compete on the financing. They decided not to sell SUVs for years when that was very clearly where all premium money was going.

So, they wouldn't sell diesels when everyone wanted diesels, couldn't sell competitive financing when everyone moved to financing and weren't allowed to sell SUVs despite being a premium brand. They've also not managed to get kids spaffing over IG content of their products.

They've basically spent the last 20 years rocking up to either the wrong party, rocking up in the wrong clothes or rocking up after the party's over.

At the same time, in 2022 why would you buy a Jag when in just a few years they'll all be kaput as they switch to EV only?

We just have to hope that they build well on the iPace which is a cracking car.

[craigjm]

DonkeyApple said:

We just have to hope that they build well on the iPace which is a cracking car.

This for me has been the biggest failure. The iPace was fantastic when launched and they havent capitalised on it since. Waiting until 2025 to make the next move, will, as you say, put people off buying the current cars. The cancelling of the XJ was a strange decision because even if they had only run it to 2025 it would have filled that gap.

[DonkeyApple]

craigjm said:

This for me has been the biggest failure. The iPace was fantastic when launched and they havent capitalised on it since. Waiting until 2025 to make the next move, will, as you say, put people off buying the current cars. The cancelling of the XJ was a strange decision because even if they had only run it to 2025 it would have filled that gap.

I think the XJ was just losing money due to such low production numbers and when LR pulled out of the electric estate that was going to piggyback on the XJ replacement there was simply no point in continuing with it from that point. No one wants big saloons anymore and it's become a niche only viable for a big manufacturer.

I don't think the iPace is scaleable which is why they e not pushed it hard. It was sort of a 'first foray' and looks to have been very successful for what it was intended to do. They say it'll still be on sale post 2025 but one has to assume that this just means the new EVs will fit around it and that the iPace will just get replaced with the new platform a couple of years down the line.

[craigjm]

DonkeyApple said:

craigjm said:

This for me has been the biggest failure. The iPace was fantastic when launched and they havent capitalised on it since. Waiting until 2025 to make the next move, will, as you say, put people off buying the current cars. The cancelling of the XJ was a strange decision because even if they had only run it to 2025 it would have filled that gap.

I think the XJ was just losing money due to such low production numbers and when LR pulled out of the electric estate that was going to piggyback on the XJ replacement there was simply no point in continuing with it from that point. No one wants big saloons anymore and it's become a niche only viable for a big manufacturer.

I don't think the iPace is scaleable which is why they e not pushed it hard. It was sort of a 'first foray' and looks to have been very successful for what it was intended to do. They say it'll still be on sale post 2025 but one has to assume that this just means the new EVs will fit around it and that the iPace will just get replaced with the new platform a couple of years down the line.

Agree, I was just saying it could have plugged the gap and kept the momentum going. The iPace will continue past 2025 purely because its electric but will be phased out around 2027 so the new range will be complete 2028 without any legacy.

[DonkeyApple]

Yup. My understanding is that they are making as many as people s viable at the moment and I suspect that any midlife revamp would be loss making due to the low volumes?

[ettore]

craigjm said:

DonkeyApple said:

We just have to hope that they build well on the iPace which is a cracking car.

This for me has been the biggest failure. The iPace was fantastic when launched and they havent capitalised on it since. Waiting until 2025 to make the next move, will, as you say, put people off buying the current cars. The cancelling of the XJ was a strange decision because even if they had only run it to 2025 it would have filled that gap.

There will be new EV product before 2025.

[sapf0]

What if Jag started again with an A Class/1 Series rival?

Got that early 20s/singles market to taste their brand before graduation to a bigger Jag?

What if a Jag had that MG Long Range EV battery?


What if MG purchased Jag & done that themselves?

[craigjm]

sapf0 said:

What if Jag started again with an A Class/1 Series rival?

I think they should have done this years ago and have now missed the boat on it.

Jaguar just seems to end up late to every party of missed the party entirely. The I Pace was an exception as they beat most of the big players to the party but they haven’t really kept up that momentum

[sapf0]

Someone told me the new Range Rover is not yet road legal? Ain’t it released in a few weeks. Is this normal?

[NMNeil]

It looks like all JLR cars are to be electric 3 years from now.
“Starting in 2025, all new JLR vehicles will be built on the NVIDIA DRIVE™ software-defined platform — delivering a wide spectrum of active safety, automated driving and parking systems as well as driver assistance systems,” a statement by Nvidia said"
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/markets...

[craigjm]

NMNeil said:

It looks like all JLR cars are to be electric 3 years from now.
“Starting in 2025, all new JLR vehicles will be built on the NVIDIA DRIVE™ software-defined platform — delivering a wide spectrum of active safety, automated driving and parking systems as well as driver assistance systems,” a statement by Nvidia said"
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/markets...

Not all electric in 2025 but starting in 2025 which is what the reimagine strategy had said all along. The first of the new electric cars will arrive in 2025 and the range will be complete by 2028 at which point they will all be electric

[Evanivitch]

NMNeil said:

It looks like all JLR cars are to be electric 3 years from now.
“Starting in 2025, all new JLR vehicles will be built on the NVIDIA DRIVE™ software-defined platform — delivering a wide spectrum of active safety, automated driving and parking systems as well as driver assistance systems,” a statement by Nvidia said"
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/markets...

Ot sure how you took a software and driver assistance announcement as "all cars will be electric"?

[ettore]

sapf0 said:

Someone told me the new Range Rover is not yet road legal? Ain’t it released in a few weeks. Is this normal?

What do you think?

(I saw one driving - ON THE ROAD - today)!

Honestly..

[NMNeil]

Evanivitch said:

Ot sure how you took a software and driver assistance announcement as "all cars will be electric"?

Because the parent company, TATA, said so.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/companies/tat...