Replacing petrol with carbon-neutral synthetic fuel
Discussion
Just when you thought motoring was going all-electric, Porsche & Siemens Energy have just announced plans for the world’s first industrial-scale facilities for manufacturing carbon-neutral synthetic fuel. It can be safely used without modification for all of its cars including classic Porsches.
The factory will be in Southern Chile to capitalize on the country's strong wind energy. This will sustainably power the electrolyzers to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. CO2 will then be filtered out of the air and processed with the hydrogen to create synthetic methanol. Then a proprietary methanol-to-gasoline process provided by Exxon Mobil turns it into e-fuel.
Porsche plans to electrify 50% of its cars by 2025 (either fully electric or hybrid) but believes synthetic fuels could power all of the world's petrol cars where it is not possible to create an adequate electric car charging infrastructure. This new e-fuel is considered preferable to biofuel, because biofuel production impacts on forests and their ecosystems, as well as competing resources required for the food chain.
Initial pilot production will see 34,000 gallons produced in 2022, but will grow to 14.5 million gallons in 2024 and then grow ten-fold to 145 million gallons by 2026.
The factory will be in Southern Chile to capitalize on the country's strong wind energy. This will sustainably power the electrolyzers to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. CO2 will then be filtered out of the air and processed with the hydrogen to create synthetic methanol. Then a proprietary methanol-to-gasoline process provided by Exxon Mobil turns it into e-fuel.
Porsche plans to electrify 50% of its cars by 2025 (either fully electric or hybrid) but believes synthetic fuels could power all of the world's petrol cars where it is not possible to create an adequate electric car charging infrastructure. This new e-fuel is considered preferable to biofuel, because biofuel production impacts on forests and their ecosystems, as well as competing resources required for the food chain.
Initial pilot production will see 34,000 gallons produced in 2022, but will grow to 14.5 million gallons in 2024 and then grow ten-fold to 145 million gallons by 2026.
Dave Sumner Smith said:
The factory will be in Southern Chile to capitalize on the country's strong wind energy. This will sustainably power the electrolyzers to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. CO2 will then be filtered out of the air and processed with the hydrogen to create synthetic methanol.
Sounds great. But a lot simpler and more efficient just to take all that wind energy and stick it straight into a battery to power an electric motor.Dave Sumner Smith said:
Then a proprietary methanol-to-gasoline process provided by Exxon Mobil turns it into e-fuel.
https://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/catalysts-an...Sounds like a chemical company trying to keep itself in business.
As Porsche and Siemens have observed, electrical recharging infrastructures are unlikely to be sufficient throughout the world for some time yet.
So an e-fuel like this has an important role to play.
Apart from anything else, it should allow (currently) petrol-powered cars to stay on the road for longer - which is something I welcome.
So an e-fuel like this has an important role to play.
Apart from anything else, it should allow (currently) petrol-powered cars to stay on the road for longer - which is something I welcome.
CheesecakeRunner said:
Dave Sumner Smith said:
The factory will be in Southern Chile to capitalize on the country's strong wind energy. This will sustainably power the electrolyzers to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. CO2 will then be filtered out of the air and processed with the hydrogen to create synthetic methanol.
Sounds great. But a lot simpler and more efficient just to take all that wind energy and stick it straight into a battery to power an electric motor.Dave Sumner Smith said:
Then a proprietary methanol-to-gasoline process provided by Exxon Mobil turns it into e-fuel.
https://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/en/catalysts-an...Sounds like a chemical company trying to keep itself in business.
- the scarce resources, energy and pollution involved in manufacturing all those batteries
- the range limitations without a lot of very heavy batteries to carry around
- the entirely new charging infrastructure needed to replace the existing gasoline one
That's without mentioning other applications like long distance road freight transport which is virtually impossible with batteries.
CheesecakeRunner said:
Sounds great. But a lot simpler and more efficient just to take all that wind energy and stick it straight into a battery to power an electric motor.
Not sure about that.Wind power isn't directly connected to a battery to charge it remember. It basically feeds in to the national grid system which is mainly coal fired power-stations. All that renewable is doing is allowing the demand from coal fired and nuclear power stations to be eased off when renewables are filling gaps so to speak.
On top of that the materials, mining, chemicals and the life time efficiency of batteries in vehicles is on balance a worse option than the proposals mentioned in the OP.
How much concern, on a scale of 0-10, have those worrying about the environmental impact of battery manufacture previously expressed about the environmental impact of the manufacture of conventional car drivetrains and bodies and interiors?
All that mining and refining and smelting and casting and machining, all that iron and aluminium and copper and lead and nickel and magnesium and chromium and cobalt and titanium and platinum and palladium and rhodium and zirconium and silicon and all that plastic, all that leather, all that glass?
If you are honest, it's pretty close to zero, isn't it?
All that mining and refining and smelting and casting and machining, all that iron and aluminium and copper and lead and nickel and magnesium and chromium and cobalt and titanium and platinum and palladium and rhodium and zirconium and silicon and all that plastic, all that leather, all that glass?
If you are honest, it's pretty close to zero, isn't it?
misar said:
You seem to have overlooked a few "minor" issues with battery EVs apart from generating the electricity:
- the scarce resources, energy and pollution involved in manufacturing all those batteries
- the range limitations without a lot of very heavy batteries to carry around
- the entirely new charging infrastructure needed to replace the existing gasoline one
That's without mentioning other applications like long distance road freight transport which is virtually impossible with batteries.
no issues with gen elec, petrol/diesel refining in the uk uses enough elec to charge 14 million leafs a week- the scarce resources, energy and pollution involved in manufacturing all those batteries
- the range limitations without a lot of very heavy batteries to carry around
- the entirely new charging infrastructure needed to replace the existing gasoline one
That's without mentioning other applications like long distance road freight transport which is virtually impossible with batteries.
most of the resources are common and lithium exists in vast quantities in pretty lifeless places like deserts, cobalt is a problem but its a tiny % of modern EV batteries and is being replaced, it can also be recovered at EoL of the battery. Far more cobalt is used in cleaning pretrol and diesel and its a one time use
this sounds like a straw clutching exercise for fat billionaire porsche drivers happy to pay £200 a litre so they can make some noise lol
range is not an issue for most EV drivers, range will increase over the next 10 years with development. Elec trains and sections of m ways with over head lines could help with freight.
new infrastructure? there are plugs litterally everywhere, just needs some rationalisation and some tweaking
and then theres the emissions from burning the s-fuel and where are you going to store billions of tonnes of captured carbon?
then there is also the problem that EVs are far better daily drivers than ICE cars
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Friday 4th December 16:10
otolith said:
How much concern, on a scale of 0-10, have those worrying about the environmental impact of battery manufacture previously expressed about the environmental impact of the manufacture of conventional car drivetrains and bodies and interiors?
All that mining and refining and smelting and casting and machining, all that iron and aluminium and copper and lead and nickel and magnesium and chromium and cobalt and titanium and platinum and palladium and rhodium and zirconium and silicon and all that plastic, all that leather, all that glass?
If you are honest, it's pretty close to zero, isn't it?
The embodied CO2 content of electric cars is substantially higher than that of a conventional car, and this getting worse as demand is rising for larger and larger batteries. All that mining and refining and smelting and casting and machining, all that iron and aluminium and copper and lead and nickel and magnesium and chromium and cobalt and titanium and platinum and palladium and rhodium and zirconium and silicon and all that plastic, all that leather, all that glass?
If you are honest, it's pretty close to zero, isn't it?
Yes, batteries can theoretically be manufactured using renewables, but so can conventional cars - and with much less demand upon natural resources.
A battery car only really makes sense when it's displaced a conventional ICE for 20,30,40+ thousand miles. Before that point its worse for the environment and, unlike the ICE, it projects a huge amount of CO2 into the environment in a short period of time when manufactured - think wood burners; it's a renewable fuel, but short term it produces a huge amount of CO2, which is recouped relatively slowly. Not great when we need to reduce CO2 production in the very short term as quickly as possible.
Overall, it's quite possible that a carbon-neutral synthetic fuel would be better for the global climate than battery cars. Plus, the less you drive it, the less impact it has on resources and the environment - unlike a battery car which HAS to be used to offset its manufacturing impact. The issue is whether or not e-fuel can be scaled as easily as a battery infrastructure.
I suspect it will remain an expensive niche, primarily to allow for heavy-transport, and potentially it'll end up in a few historic vehicles as a sideline.
Overall this is a good thing. It would be nice if the volt-heads didn't piss on it.
NDNDNDND said:
Overall this is a good thing. It would be nice if the volt-heads didn't piss on it.
it will probably have a place, i suspect for aviation, same as hydrogen will for heavy transportits the "look at this new messiah technology that makes EVs redundant" followed by the usual b
k's facts that make it fun to respond to NDNDNDND said:
The embodied CO2 content of electric cars is substantially higher than that of a conventional car, and this getting worse as demand is rising for larger and larger batteries.
Yes, batteries can theoretically be manufactured using renewables, but so can conventional cars - and with much less demand upon natural resources.
A battery car only really makes sense when it's displaced a conventional ICE for 20,30,40+ thousand miles. Before that point its worse for the environment and, unlike the ICE, it projects a huge amount of CO2 into the environment in a short period of time when manufactured - think wood burners; it's a renewable fuel, but short term it produces a huge amount of CO2, which is recouped relatively slowly. Not great when we need to reduce CO2 production in the very short term as quickly as possible.
Overall, it's quite possible that a carbon-neutral synthetic fuel would be better for the global climate than battery cars. Plus, the less you drive it, the less impact it has on resources and the environment - unlike a battery car which HAS to be used to offset its manufacturing impact. The issue is whether or not e-fuel can be scaled as easily as a battery infrastructure.
I suspect it will remain an expensive niche, primarily to allow for heavy-transport, and potentially it'll end up in a few historic vehicles as a sideline.
Overall this is a good thing. It would be nice if the volt-heads didn't piss on it.
So, how long have you been concerned about the embodied CO2 in cars in general? Yes, batteries can theoretically be manufactured using renewables, but so can conventional cars - and with much less demand upon natural resources.
A battery car only really makes sense when it's displaced a conventional ICE for 20,30,40+ thousand miles. Before that point its worse for the environment and, unlike the ICE, it projects a huge amount of CO2 into the environment in a short period of time when manufactured - think wood burners; it's a renewable fuel, but short term it produces a huge amount of CO2, which is recouped relatively slowly. Not great when we need to reduce CO2 production in the very short term as quickly as possible.
Overall, it's quite possible that a carbon-neutral synthetic fuel would be better for the global climate than battery cars. Plus, the less you drive it, the less impact it has on resources and the environment - unlike a battery car which HAS to be used to offset its manufacturing impact. The issue is whether or not e-fuel can be scaled as easily as a battery infrastructure.
I suspect it will remain an expensive niche, primarily to allow for heavy-transport, and potentially it'll end up in a few historic vehicles as a sideline.
Overall this is a good thing. It would be nice if the volt-heads didn't piss on it.
Dave Hedgehog said:
NDNDNDND said:
Overall this is a good thing. It would be nice if the volt-heads didn't piss on it.
it will probably have a place, i suspect for aviation, same as hydrogen will for heavy transportits the "look at this new messiah technology that makes EVs redundant" followed by the usual b
k's facts that make it fun to respond to That's a good thing, right?
Or are you just going to keep jeering like some troglodytic football fan?
One thing that's always conveniently glossed-over is how do you charge an electric car if you live in one of the millions of houses that don't have a driveway? Are we expecting every street to have hundreds of charging points along the pavement? One charging point per space? Really? Does anyone actually think that's going to happen?
People are precious enough about the space outside their house even now when it doesn't really matter where you park, imagine what would happen if it also requires you to plug the car in each night in order to get to work, but someone is in "your" spot. Cars will be unplugged left right and centre, or re-plugged into your own car.
Remember, only 10 years until ICE cannot be sold.....10 years....do you recall anything that major that's been implemented in the country since 2010? Or in fact ever? BTW how's HS2 coming along? Doen by when? Ah, 2031(ish).....
People are precious enough about the space outside their house even now when it doesn't really matter where you park, imagine what would happen if it also requires you to plug the car in each night in order to get to work, but someone is in "your" spot. Cars will be unplugged left right and centre, or re-plugged into your own car.
Remember, only 10 years until ICE cannot be sold.....10 years....do you recall anything that major that's been implemented in the country since 2010? Or in fact ever? BTW how's HS2 coming along? Doen by when? Ah, 2031(ish).....
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 4th December 19:30
Strange how this can provoke such polarised responses.
The Hgv and aviation industries can't go battery, and liquid fuel in aircraft is very efficient per kg, so if carbon neutral fuel can be made available this must be a good thing surely?
Especially, if like me you have an old classic car as a toy, then carbon neutral fuel would be welcome, especially if it cuts out the nox and sulphur etc and replaced it with pure octane.
A true planet saver would go for carbon neutral diesel, but cn high octane petrol can only be a good thing too...bring it on!
The Hgv and aviation industries can't go battery, and liquid fuel in aircraft is very efficient per kg, so if carbon neutral fuel can be made available this must be a good thing surely?
Especially, if like me you have an old classic car as a toy, then carbon neutral fuel would be welcome, especially if it cuts out the nox and sulphur etc and replaced it with pure octane.
A true planet saver would go for carbon neutral diesel, but cn high octane petrol can only be a good thing too...bring it on!
Electric cars make little sense in the UK, charging will be a problem for years to come, most people could not "Home charge" and who wants to spend time sitting waiting for a charge to fill your car, the price of these so called chargers ain't cheap either.
Give me petrol all day long.
Give me petrol all day long.
Dave Sumner Smith said:
Just when you thought motoring was going all-electric, Porsche & Siemens Energy have just announced plans for the world’s first industrial-scale facilities for manufacturing carbon-neutral synthetic fuel. It can be safely used without modification for all of its cars including classic Porsches.
The factory will be in Southern Chile to capitalize on the country's strong wind energy. This will sustainably power the electrolyzers to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. CO2 will then be filtered out of the air and processed with the hydrogen to create synthetic methanol. Then a proprietary methanol-to-gasoline process provided by Exxon Mobil turns it into e-fuel.
Porsche plans to electrify 50% of its cars by 2025 (either fully electric or hybrid) but believes synthetic fuels could power all of the world's petrol cars where it is not possible to create an adequate electric car charging infrastructure. This new e-fuel is considered preferable to biofuel, because biofuel production impacts on forests and their ecosystems, as well as competing resources required for the food chain.
Initial pilot production will see 34,000 gallons produced in 2022, but will grow to 14.5 million gallons in 2024 and then grow ten-fold to 145 million gallons by 2026.
It isn't such a radical or new idea though.The factory will be in Southern Chile to capitalize on the country's strong wind energy. This will sustainably power the electrolyzers to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. CO2 will then be filtered out of the air and processed with the hydrogen to create synthetic methanol. Then a proprietary methanol-to-gasoline process provided by Exxon Mobil turns it into e-fuel.
Porsche plans to electrify 50% of its cars by 2025 (either fully electric or hybrid) but believes synthetic fuels could power all of the world's petrol cars where it is not possible to create an adequate electric car charging infrastructure. This new e-fuel is considered preferable to biofuel, because biofuel production impacts on forests and their ecosystems, as well as competing resources required for the food chain.
Initial pilot production will see 34,000 gallons produced in 2022, but will grow to 14.5 million gallons in 2024 and then grow ten-fold to 145 million gallons by 2026.
In South America they have been growing a petrol substitute fuel for decades. And there are many forms of bio diesels. These are for all intensive purposes a form of synthetic fuel....... and can be very carbon neutral and quite clean.
I have for many years speculated that electric drive coupled with IC engines running synthetic fuels would likely be far more adaptable than pure EV's.....but I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.
JimSuperSix said:
Remember, only 10 years until ICE cannot be sold.....10 years....do you recall anything that major that's been implemented in the country since 2010? Or in fact ever? BTW how's HS2 coming along? Doen by when? Ah, 2031(ish).....
No it is 10 years until ICE ONLY cars cannot be sold, Hybrids are fine!Edited by JimSuperSix on Friday 4th December 19:30
Also as the government don't supply the cars, it will probably be fine!
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