Discussion
Looking for some help please.
Long story short, while I was having my engine refreshed, I decided to have the exisiting clutch re-lined. Why not - saves messing around later pulling things apart.
Seemed a straightforward process, unit came back looking good. I fitted it, but couldn't select all gears with the engine running. Initially I thought it would be a bit of air in the hydraulics or in need of adjustment at the pedal end. Sadly neither. The car has a RP slave.
Next I removed the starter to view the clutch operation. What I found was a decent gap between the flywheel and primary plate (about 0.75mm if I recall), but a relatively small gap at the secondary plate 0.3mm.
After a bit of discussion with the supplier, I decided to pull the gearbox out and have a look at the unit on the bench. Frustrating as I'd put the engine and 'box in as a unit, so now messing around dismantling it wasn't too ideal. With the unit on the bench I found a couple of issues.
1) The gap for the secondary plate was something like 0.3mm at one point and 0.6mm and 0.7mm the others.
2) One of the cover pieces on the inside of the clutch house (theres 5) was missing. This is what the moving part slides on rather than the casting.
Off the unit went to the supplier - they paid for the courrier each way.
Now its back, I fitted it and inspecting the clutch operation via the starter motor apperture its the primary plate that now has little gap and the secondary plate has loads.
The supplier noted they had setup the clearance for the secondary plate, fitted the missing cover and altered the angle of the diaphragm spring to improve the action. While on the bench I thought the secondary plate gaps looked to be 0.75mm which is the mid-point of what I understand, but it looks like the gap is more than 1.2mm when I check on the feeler guages fitted in the car.
Fitting the rest of the parts up and running it I suspect is a completely pointless task.
Thats the cross roads Im at with this thing. Quite tempted to cut my losses and put a brand new clutch into it. Slightly dents the budget, but so far this has been a "fools erand" so far...
Any thoughts or experience?
Long story short, while I was having my engine refreshed, I decided to have the exisiting clutch re-lined. Why not - saves messing around later pulling things apart.
Seemed a straightforward process, unit came back looking good. I fitted it, but couldn't select all gears with the engine running. Initially I thought it would be a bit of air in the hydraulics or in need of adjustment at the pedal end. Sadly neither. The car has a RP slave.
Next I removed the starter to view the clutch operation. What I found was a decent gap between the flywheel and primary plate (about 0.75mm if I recall), but a relatively small gap at the secondary plate 0.3mm.
After a bit of discussion with the supplier, I decided to pull the gearbox out and have a look at the unit on the bench. Frustrating as I'd put the engine and 'box in as a unit, so now messing around dismantling it wasn't too ideal. With the unit on the bench I found a couple of issues.
1) The gap for the secondary plate was something like 0.3mm at one point and 0.6mm and 0.7mm the others.
2) One of the cover pieces on the inside of the clutch house (theres 5) was missing. This is what the moving part slides on rather than the casting.
Off the unit went to the supplier - they paid for the courrier each way.
Now its back, I fitted it and inspecting the clutch operation via the starter motor apperture its the primary plate that now has little gap and the secondary plate has loads.
The supplier noted they had setup the clearance for the secondary plate, fitted the missing cover and altered the angle of the diaphragm spring to improve the action. While on the bench I thought the secondary plate gaps looked to be 0.75mm which is the mid-point of what I understand, but it looks like the gap is more than 1.2mm when I check on the feeler guages fitted in the car.
Fitting the rest of the parts up and running it I suspect is a completely pointless task.
Thats the cross roads Im at with this thing. Quite tempted to cut my losses and put a brand new clutch into it. Slightly dents the budget, but so far this has been a "fools erand" so far...
Any thoughts or experience?
It sounds like the 'pins' that go through the star washers may be damaged
I made sure I sanded them so they were nice and smooth, and I fitted new star washers
This should ensure that the intermediate plate moves gradually as the friction plates wear
However, I can't claim total success with my clutch yet, as mine is suffering from some judder, which it has never done before
This is with relined discs and a resurfaced flywheel, so I've taken mine off again to investigate, but found nothing obviously wrong
Before refitting the gearbox I always check that the clutch disengages cleanly by using an old input shaft while an assistant operates the clutch pedal
(almost any 23 spline input shaft will do)
I made sure I sanded them so they were nice and smooth, and I fitted new star washers
This should ensure that the intermediate plate moves gradually as the friction plates wear
However, I can't claim total success with my clutch yet, as mine is suffering from some judder, which it has never done before
This is with relined discs and a resurfaced flywheel, so I've taken mine off again to investigate, but found nothing obviously wrong
Before refitting the gearbox I always check that the clutch disengages cleanly by using an old input shaft while an assistant operates the clutch pedal
(almost any 23 spline input shaft will do)
Hi Paul - I’m thinking those pins that control the gap for the secondary plate are the issue. Odd how it seemed good when I measured the clearance on the bench, but after fitting it’s clearly wrong.
I do like the idea of testing with the dummy shaft in. Think I’ll pull it apart once more and have a look. So near, but so far.
The only positive thus far is the amount of super unleaded that I’ve saved.
Cheers
Brian
I do like the idea of testing with the dummy shaft in. Think I’ll pull it apart once more and have a look. So near, but so far.
The only positive thus far is the amount of super unleaded that I’ve saved.
Cheers
Brian
Paul - I think it’s the star washers as you point to in your post above.
I’ve got video of the clutch operating after it’s initial rebuild (when the secondary plate clearance was bad, but primary was good)
When I video the clutch operation now I can see problem is with these star washers.
This is one unhappy and unsuccessful clutch refurb. I will figure how to link to the tow videos for reference.
I’ve got video of the clutch operating after it’s initial rebuild (when the secondary plate clearance was bad, but primary was good)
When I video the clutch operation now I can see problem is with these star washers.
This is one unhappy and unsuccessful clutch refurb. I will figure how to link to the tow videos for reference.
As we are allowed to post YT links, here are a couple of videos.
This is, as stands right now. I've now watched this a few times on a proper screen and I wonder if there's two issues. One is possibly the pins, but I can't help but feel the retaining screws that control the gap for the secondary plate are wrong.Their movement seems way more than the 0.75mm they ought to be. I wonder if I can wind these in a turn or two in situ? Might just take up enough slack to then see if the star washers are cream crackered.
I'd also say the second press of the pedal allowed more movement, so perhaps a little air in there still.
https://youtu.be/u9UgwwAAvO0
The next clip is the operation when the secondary plate wasn't getting enough clearance (before the units second visit to the supplier).The movement between the flat nut and the primary plate's driven plate seems negligable in comparison to the previous video.
https://youtu.be/o-unWAziNFQ
Finally here's a photo of the star washer in situ - Is this the wrong way round? I looked at the other thread and wasn't quite convinced.
Cheers,
Brian
This is, as stands right now. I've now watched this a few times on a proper screen and I wonder if there's two issues. One is possibly the pins, but I can't help but feel the retaining screws that control the gap for the secondary plate are wrong.Their movement seems way more than the 0.75mm they ought to be. I wonder if I can wind these in a turn or two in situ? Might just take up enough slack to then see if the star washers are cream crackered.
I'd also say the second press of the pedal allowed more movement, so perhaps a little air in there still.
https://youtu.be/u9UgwwAAvO0
The next clip is the operation when the secondary plate wasn't getting enough clearance (before the units second visit to the supplier).The movement between the flat nut and the primary plate's driven plate seems negligable in comparison to the previous video.
https://youtu.be/o-unWAziNFQ
Finally here's a photo of the star washer in situ - Is this the wrong way round? I looked at the other thread and wasn't quite convinced.
Cheers,
Brian
The starlock should be fitted so the pin pushes through easily, but cannot be retracted
The starlock is damaged by retracting the pin, that's why they are single use only
The pin shouldn't move at all, it looks as if the nut has come loose
There's a nyloc nut in a recess on the opposite side of the plate that the pin is attached to, I'm pretty certain it's missing or damaged
You can't see it from that angle, but you might be able to with a small telescopic mirror
The starlock is damaged by retracting the pin, that's why they are single use only
The pin shouldn't move at all, it looks as if the nut has come loose
There's a nyloc nut in a recess on the opposite side of the plate that the pin is attached to, I'm pretty certain it's missing or damaged
You can't see it from that angle, but you might be able to with a small telescopic mirror
Edited by ukkid35 on Monday 15th June 20:38
The more I look at this, the more it looks like a new clutch is probably the best way forward.
It's a pity, as it looked a good way to extend the life of something that otherwise is functionally fine.
I'll perhaps take a shot at adjusting the three screws and see if that has any positive benefit - nothing to loose at this stage.
It's a pity, as it looked a good way to extend the life of something that otherwise is functionally fine.
I'll perhaps take a shot at adjusting the three screws and see if that has any positive benefit - nothing to loose at this stage.
Paul, you mentioned clutch judder on relining the clutch.
This may not be relevant, but just in case.....
I had a different, prototype, clutch fitted in my Chimaera.
It juddered pretty badly at first, but I persevered and gradually it reduced, and now it's fine, no judder at all.
In my case the clutch plate surface that meets the flywheel was slightly wider in overall area than the one it replaced, so the clutch juddered until it had worn enough material away to make a good contact over the entire clutch area. This took about 1,000 miles.
This may not be relevant, but just in case.....
I had a different, prototype, clutch fitted in my Chimaera.
It juddered pretty badly at first, but I persevered and gradually it reduced, and now it's fine, no judder at all.
In my case the clutch plate surface that meets the flywheel was slightly wider in overall area than the one it replaced, so the clutch juddered until it had worn enough material away to make a good contact over the entire clutch area. This took about 1,000 miles.
QBee said:
In my case the clutch plate surface that meets the flywheel was slightly wider in overall area than the one it replaced, so the clutch juddered until it had worn enough material away to make a good contact over the entire clutch area. This took about 1,000 miles.
Good to know - many thanksHad a shot at making a little spanner for the nyloc on the end of the pins and ground down a spanner to make it thin enough to get onto the hex on the pin.
Result: I've ruinded a good spanner, and I'm going to buy a new clutch. Tight for space so it was really difficult to get a good purchase on the nyloc. I could of course pull the gearbox, faff with the pins but I think that's a bridge too far with this clutch. The annoying part is that by having the clutch rebuilt,
I have essentailly ruined a servicable clutch. It was neearing the end of it's life, and the engine was out for a rebuild. The efficiency of all that is long since lost, and spent money at it.
Brian
Result: I've ruinded a good spanner, and I'm going to buy a new clutch. Tight for space so it was really difficult to get a good purchase on the nyloc. I could of course pull the gearbox, faff with the pins but I think that's a bridge too far with this clutch. The annoying part is that by having the clutch rebuilt,
I have essentailly ruined a servicable clutch. It was neearing the end of it's life, and the engine was out for a rebuild. The efficiency of all that is long since lost, and spent money at it.
Brian
Sorry chaps, only just seen this post. My refurbished clutch also has the pins not fully seated. I queried this with Ben at Clutchfix and he assured me it’s OK and from memory I’m sure he said it’s a consequence of the plates being refinished and so they are slightly thinner.
Despite mine being done months I still haven’t refitted it so I can’t say whether it’s right, wrong or indifferent.
Ian
Despite mine being done months I still haven’t refitted it so I can’t say whether it’s right, wrong or indifferent.
Ian
Thanks Ian.
I've fitted mine and it simply doesn't work. I checked the clearances prior to fitting (second time) for the secondary plate and they were spot on, However, with the unit fitted the clearance has increased. Makes me think the star washers have moved, and are not gripping the pins or the nutted end of the pin was not seated properly to start with. Suspect it's the star washers and pins.
Had hoped i'd have dismantled it this during the weekend. Hopefully this week, weather permitting..
Cheers,
Brian
I've fitted mine and it simply doesn't work. I checked the clearances prior to fitting (second time) for the secondary plate and they were spot on, However, with the unit fitted the clearance has increased. Makes me think the star washers have moved, and are not gripping the pins or the nutted end of the pin was not seated properly to start with. Suspect it's the star washers and pins.
Had hoped i'd have dismantled it this during the weekend. Hopefully this week, weather permitting..
Cheers,
Brian
Was your refurbished clutch done here https://clutch-specialists.co.uk/
I have one of there units in my garage awaiting mine to fail I know of others who have used them without issue before.
I have one of there units in my garage awaiting mine to fail I know of others who have used them without issue before.
billybradshaw said:
Sorry chaps, only just seen this post. My refurbished clutch also has the pins not fully seated. I queried this with Ben at Clutchfix and he assured me it’s OK and from memory I’m sure he said it’s a consequence of the plates being refinished and so they are slightly thinner.
Despite mine being done months I still haven’t refitted it so I can’t say whether it’s right, wrong or indifferent.
Ian
They really do need to be fully located/tightenedDespite mine being done months I still haven’t refitted it so I can’t say whether it’s right, wrong or indifferent.
Ian
Buy a pack of Starlock washers for £2, pull it all apart, clean up and tighten the pins, then reassemble with the new Starlocks
Next, change the Pilot Bearing - or Spigot Bearing as TVR call it, it will cost you at least a fiver, and I can lend you the tool to remove the old one
Finally, and equally importantly, adjust the preload on the input shaft - sure that is a bit tricky as you need a set of shims that are not easily available
However, if it all goes wrong you will destroy the input shaft - and there are none available anywhere
It will also damage the countershaft, but that doesn't matter, they are cheap and cheerful at just $100 for a new one
Learn from my mistakes
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