MAPPING.WHAT DOES IT COST AND WHO DOES IT
Discussion
The lumpiness at low revs on a 4.5 is caused by the fuel map, this can be overcome in two ways:
First one is to stick in a "Red Rose" chip that chucks a boat load more fuel in the map lower down the rev range. This does not necessarily give more power but certainly helps smooths out the lumpiness at lower revs.
Second option is to have a remap AND SHORT INDUCTION (such as the Whirlwind Induction), this significantly reduces the "camel humps" in the lower part of the rev range that is often seen on Rolling road prints out for standard or just remapped cars. For some reason the Emerald ECU cars have smoother maps, but Nickcc's latest map was the smoothest I've ever seen and that's on an MBE with quite a bit of other work done by Joolz at TCS.
Just a remap on its own will NOT necessarily reduce the lumpiness, it's the short induction that helps achieve it.
When I return to the Cerb fold I will almost certainly run an Emerald on it, for me the Emerald always appears to reap a slightly higher gain in Torque and smoother curves, it also removes the hassle of having to have the ECU removed everytime it requires a new map and a new chip burned, the Emerald also has the facility to hold a number of different maps.
Austec and Track Car Solutions both do mapping on the MBE, with TCS giving the option of an "off the shelf" chip. They both offer bespoke mapping depending upon your requirements and the set-up of your car. If you are looking at going down the gradual upgrade route which will require a series of maps then I would recommend the Emerald route.
Jules.
ps the fastest Cerb at Santa Pod was running an Emerald and 410bhp.
First one is to stick in a "Red Rose" chip that chucks a boat load more fuel in the map lower down the rev range. This does not necessarily give more power but certainly helps smooths out the lumpiness at lower revs.
Second option is to have a remap AND SHORT INDUCTION (such as the Whirlwind Induction), this significantly reduces the "camel humps" in the lower part of the rev range that is often seen on Rolling road prints out for standard or just remapped cars. For some reason the Emerald ECU cars have smoother maps, but Nickcc's latest map was the smoothest I've ever seen and that's on an MBE with quite a bit of other work done by Joolz at TCS.
Just a remap on its own will NOT necessarily reduce the lumpiness, it's the short induction that helps achieve it.
When I return to the Cerb fold I will almost certainly run an Emerald on it, for me the Emerald always appears to reap a slightly higher gain in Torque and smoother curves, it also removes the hassle of having to have the ECU removed everytime it requires a new map and a new chip burned, the Emerald also has the facility to hold a number of different maps.
Austec and Track Car Solutions both do mapping on the MBE, with TCS giving the option of an "off the shelf" chip. They both offer bespoke mapping depending upon your requirements and the set-up of your car. If you are looking at going down the gradual upgrade route which will require a series of maps then I would recommend the Emerald route.
Jules.
ps the fastest Cerb at Santa Pod was running an Emerald and 410bhp.
Another chip based question. I'm already chucking out a healthy 348BHP with a standard setup 4.2, or at least I was before I had the H&S exhaust done. Haven't had it checked since. But I have noticed that I do get somewhat less MPG than some say they get out of their cerbs, even on a run - This is backed up by some bogging down before the engine really gets up to temp, which seems to indicate some overfueling - Something I have been told that the TVR map does tend to do (actually I was told that "the TVR map is piss poor"
I've been informed that the mapping can be sorted to return at least the same power output but with less fuel being chucked at the engine - Any truth in this?
I've been informed that the mapping can be sorted to return at least the same power output but with less fuel being chucked at the engine - Any truth in this?
southendpier said:
baguaman said:
I have discovered that lumpiness at 2k revs forcing me to change up very quickly is a quirk of cerbs that can be fixed by mapping..what is mapping ..how does it work and who does it..
Crumbs that's an early change! Are you in 5th gear then doing a steady, if lumpy, 33mph?
Keep it above 2k ooooh yes. I prefer my engine buzzing between 2500 to 3000rpm.
Or change to a 4.2 as I've mentioned before.
Seriously though are the standards 4.5s that bad or do they just get tired over time, needing a good honest fettle and their pipes all stroked? Can't imagine them leaving the factory with such an obvious driving flaw.
(not with TVR's quality control)
V8Cerbera said:
Another chip based question. I'm already chucking out a healthy 348BHP with a standard setup 4.2, or at least I was before I had the H&S exhaust done. Haven't had it checked since. But I have noticed that I do get somewhat less MPG than some say they get out of their cerbs, even on a run - This is backed up by some bogging down before the engine really gets up to temp, which seems to indicate some overfueling - Something I have been told that the TVR map does tend to do (actually I was told that "the TVR map is piss poor"
I've been informed that the mapping can be sorted to return at least the same power output but with less fuel being chucked at the engine - Any truth in this?
I've been informed that the mapping can be sorted to return at least the same power output but with less fuel being chucked at the engine - Any truth in this?
Yes.
You may not see an overall gain in bhp (whether it be peak or through the range) but it will certainly address any fueling issues that may exist. Best bet would be to get it on the rolling road and from there a good tuner will be able to tell you if the fuel map etc requires adjusting.
Jules.
guys very very good informative feedback...the idea is to get the car performing as smoothly as possible..its not aall about speed ..its about performance..handling and drivabilty...looks like i am very tempted to go the remap and induction route..does the general cerbera team believe the induction side contributes to a smoother pull..
baguaman said:
guys very very good informative feedback...the idea is to get the car performing as smoothly as possible..its not aall about speed ..its about performance..handling and drivabilty...looks like i am very tempted to go the remap and induction route..does the general cerbera team believe the induction side contributes to a smoother pull..
HarryW said:
TooTall Paul said:
Can you get MOT friendly maps ?
I can't see why not, assuming it can be made to pass the emissions test by map only
As far as I know, our car made it through the MOT on its own merit with fresh cats, something atleast one person on here doesnt believe possible (mr64!) - Joolz sounded suprised by it.
Cyclone1 said:
baguaman said:
guys very very good informative feedback...the idea is to get the car performing as smoothly as possible..its not aall about speed ..its about performance..handling and drivabilty...looks like i am very tempted to go the remap and induction route..does the general cerbera team believe the induction side contributes to a smoother pull..
BCA said:
HarryW said:
TooTall Paul said:
Can you get MOT friendly maps ?
I can't see why not, assuming it can be made to pass the emissions test by map only
As far as I know, our car made it through the MOT on its own merit with fresh cats, something atleast one person on here doesnt believe possible (mr64!) - Joolz sounded suprised by it.
Not true read some of my threads on this. To paraphrase 'a Cerb can't pass a standard emissions test.' Never could, never will.
Luckily it doesn't have to. Its allowed to cheat using a little known rule that says the emissions never have to be better than when built by the manufacturer. It has a special lambda value raise by the little white book. But only if MOT man knows about it.
Steve_T said:
trackcar said:
the emerald route is initially more expensive, but becomes better value if you're on a programme of improvements needing mapping each time, remapping the mbe is expensive!
Fair do's to the rest, but I can't see how the MBE remap is going to be much more expensive than the Emerald. As I see it you're paying for roller time + the time of the technician when altering either map to adjust for a mod. So the costs should be quite similar unless I've missed something.
Steve.
well mbe remap 600.00 , emerald remap 200.00
a recent partial remap for a guy going from long induction to short induction cost him 75.00 so yeh the emerald is significantly cheaper!
An Emerald ECU is a lot of money being thrown, why? how often will most owners pull out their laptop and remap???
an MBE is technically a superior ECU, just needs a good map
ps If you mention SXS at Austec, you get a 10% discount for an MBE remap
an MBE is technically a superior ECU, just needs a good map
ps If you mention SXS at Austec, you get a 10% discount for an MBE remap
Edited by SXS on Saturday 24th March 12:38
SXS said:
An Emerald ECU is a lot of money being thrown, why? how often will most owners pull out their laptop and remap???
Edited by SXS on Saturday 24th March 12:38
Well believe it or not, those of us with a tendancy to tune and test often require a remap whether we do it ourself or whether one of the Tuning experts does it.
My Cerb had the following mods / upgrades during my ownership and a remap was done with all of them:
Standard Remap after Emerald fitted
Whirlwind Induction prototype
Whirlwind Short Induction mk 1
Whirlwind Short induction mk 2
Linked Decats / Airbox Mod x2
New Manifold
Bigger Bore Exhaust
Straight through bigger bore exhaust x3
Hi-Flow Filters x2
Cone Filters x3
Repositioned Filters x3
Repositioned airbox x3
Plus various combinations of the above, this was all done to test out unproven theories as well as trying to extract the most power / torque throughout the rev range and not just at peak.
Try doing the above with an MBE and you'll need more than a mention of SXS to make it worthwhile
If you are into upgrading your Cerb gradually then the Emerald is a better proposition than the MBE, as it allows you to learn the basics of tuning and allows you the facility to just drop the car in with an Emerald friendly tuner who can then just simply plug and play with the ECU, it's much less time consuming and therefore from a Tuner or an owner much more cost effective......simple business sense if you have a business head and can look at it that way.
For those interested Joolz at Track Car Solutions remaps both and will do this to the customers requirements.
And if you mention "Cyclone" whilst you're at TCS, Vicky will make you a nice cup of tea and also give you a nice smile.......much better value than the 10% offer!
Jules
GreenV8S said:
.....
From the sound of it you need a bit more than 10% to cover the difference.
trackcar said:
mbe remap 600.00 , emerald remap 200.00
From the sound of it you need a bit more than 10% to cover the difference.
Yes that may be correct if you already have an emerald fitted not forgetting the Cerbera came with an MBE ECU from new
. Apples and apples needed here, so I think you need to factor in the cost of adding an Emerald ECU onto those figures to make a direct comparison.
Subsequent mapping can be done by yourself on the Emerald
, or by a.n.other mechanic for £200 or so, effectively the man and RR time. The MBE remap once you've paid the initial fee would be, from my experience, on a similar basis. HarryW said:
GreenV8S said:
.....
From the sound of it you need a bit more than 10% to cover the difference.
trackcar said:
mbe remap 600.00 , emerald remap 200.00
From the sound of it you need a bit more than 10% to cover the difference.
Yes that may be correct if you already have an emerald fitted not forgetting the Cerbera came with an MBE ECU from new
. Apples and apples needed here, so I think you need to factor in the cost of adding an Emerald ECU onto those figures to make a direct comparison.
Subsequent mapping can be done by yourself on the Emerald
, or by a.n.other mechanic for £200 or so, effectively the man and RR time. The MBE remap once you've paid the initial fee would be, from my experience, on a similar basis.Yes the cost of the Emerald needs to be added and at around £750-£1k it's a fair outlay.
The only cost thereafter is the RR time and the time of the Tuner (normally merged as one cost), there is no need to remove and refit the ECU and there is no need to "burn" a chip for every time that an MBE is remapped. All of the Emerald maps can be stored so you can revert back to an earlier map depending on your state of tune.
If you have some experience of the Emerald and understand the basic functions of the ECU with regard to map/engine set-up then yes you can monitor and adjust the map to suit. However, if you do not feel confident then just take it to your local or preferred Tuner who can do it for you.
I;ve also done tests on two cars where we fitted an Emerald and mapped the car and then refitted the MBE and mapped it again, both cars showed better results with the Emerald, albeit this was done on cars in a state of tune inxs of 400bhp.
Jules.
you pays your money............
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