Dyno Disappointment

Dyno Disappointment

TOPIC CLOSED
TOPIC CLOSED
Author
Discussion

dannylt

1,906 posts

283 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2003
quotequote all
Someone seems to get upset about the lack of power every few months or so, and goes on about trade descriptions etc. Nobody has actually done anything more than talk about doing something as far as I know.

The factory are well aware of the real power outputs, but I doubt many people have sued them over it.

Let us know if you do... or whether you decide to just get on with it and drive it

danny

alex200mph

510 posts

264 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2003
quotequote all
As per my previous post tvr can quote whatever optimistic power outputs they want unless its to a standard. For example to DIN
I doubt that any TVR claim its to a particular standard so I doubt that you would get anywhere legally.

FourWheelDrift

88,382 posts

283 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2003
quotequote all
dannylt said:
Someone seems to get upset about the lack of power every few months or so, and goes on about trade descriptions etc. Nobody has actually done anything more than talk about doing something as far as I know.

danny


Cerbie 4.5 - 349 bhp - 301 lb/ft - this was your old one btw

Apache

39,731 posts

283 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2003
quotequote all
sportie said:
I like the example bought a six pack and got four, but don't complain because the beers excelent.


cute analogy but I think 'bought a six pack of 9.3% lager, well cheap but there doesn't appear to be any ringpulls' fits better

dannylt

1,906 posts

283 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2003
quotequote all
FourWheelDrift said:
Cerbie 4.5 - 349 bhp - 301 lb/ft - this was your old one btw
When I sold it, was a bit nippier at 400 bhp - 350 lb/ft

Koo

Original Poster:

23 posts

246 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2003
quotequote all
Unless I get some satisfaction i.e. a realistic power figure to the claimed 420 BHP, compensation or my money back; I can assure you I will not “just get on with it and drive it”. And legally speaking it is in contravention of the Trades Description Act, therefore a criminal offence.

Trust me when I say I thrive when it comes to things like this, I’ve done it before and with much larger companies. It’s really not a problem.

The question is… why not, nothing to loose. Why should we be deceived like this? TVR must be laughing there a***s off at us.

dannylt

1,906 posts

283 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2003
quotequote all
Keep us posted! I guess all you're risking is goodwill should the engine go pop.

Sparks

1,217 posts

278 months

Thursday 4th September 2003
quotequote all
Koo,

Unless you take your engine out, and test it in exactly the same way TVR did to get their power figure, I think you are on a hiding to nothing.
It is also well known that all engines vary a little (and the amount will increase with the power). I also think TVR will argue the 'performance is accurate' line too.

Good luck, but I think you may end up out of pocket.

Sparks

2 sheds

2,529 posts

283 months

Thursday 4th September 2003
quotequote all
Firstly this is not only a TVR issue, but has been common to British manufacturers.
When TVR have released new models the early cars have been more powerful, examples: SEACs first cars made genuine 290 bhp (300 quoted) later 450s 275 bhp, early Griff 500s made a genuine 300 ish figure, the latest models about 40 bhp less, Cerbera 4.5 first cars probably near to TVR claimed figure, a friend owned one of the first few , it was dangerously fast but very difficult to drive gently or in traffic. In all cases TVR improved the cars over the years, sometimes less power is more effective, the torque curve is the important bit, the published TVR power figures represent the press cars etc and are probably not far off. IMO most couldn't "live" with a 420bhp AJP for normal road use.
Tim

Jamster

487 posts

247 months

Thursday 4th September 2003
quotequote all
Has anyone had any speed six's measured????

Koo, here's a bit of further advice. I deal with this at work a lot with different types of customers. THe absolute No1 thing you have to day is write to TVR head office asking them to explain the exact environment they test their engines bhp outputs in. ie equipment used, overall uncertainty, temperature, engine in/out of car, load etc etc
Once you get this information you will be able to compare apples with apples. TVR then, absolutely must meet the 420bhp spec in the manual and sales literature. This is where the trades description part comes in. TVR wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

If TVR dont comply to any of the previosuly mentioned bhp standards they MUST state this in their literature otherwise they are misleading the customer. Just like all the finance/pension companys have done over the last few years and look what happened to them! From what I understand they dont do this which is a big no no! This also comes under the trades descriptions act.

Does anyone know what ISO standard TVR manufacture to? Mind you they prob dont bother about quality standards! This would help grately as this defines operational and quality objectives, goals, practices, guildlines which MUST be adhered to otherwise you loose your accredetation and thus ability to produce any product ie cars!!

Hope this helps!

Tam Lin

694 posts

252 months

Thursday 4th September 2003
quotequote all
2 sheds said:
.. the published TVR power figures represent the press cars etc and are probably not far off.
Tim

Hi Tim,
Not sure about the press cars, all the reviews I've been able to grab imply otherwise: i.e. Autocar claim to have rolling roaded the 4.2 and it was on spec, but they never managed the same performance out of the 4.5 they road tested. 70 odd bhp would be detectable, methinks.

Also not sure that 420 BHP would be undriveable, especially if it occured at high RPM: our Cerb has more BHP than SGirl's Griff 500 used to have, but it was the low-down torque in the Griff that I found more difficult to harness: there was no such thing as moving off gently on a low-grip surface in that thing wheras even a slow-reacting numpty like me can manage to avoid going over 6000 rpm in traffic, where things get "interesting" in the 4.2 Cerb.
Sean

Tivster

359 posts

249 months

Thursday 4th September 2003
quotequote all
Stumbled across this....

Isn't the issue with the dealer in your case? You didn't buy the car from TVR, you bought a second hand car from a dealer. Anything Trade Descriptions Act -wise will not touch TVR. Regardless of whether you thrive on this sort of thing or not, you should understand who to tackle about your grievence - and it's not TVR unless you plan to to take them on on behalf of all owners of all models. This is because you are then dealing with significantly different issues to your personal acquisition.
All the previous posts about needing to know how TVR derive their figures are good advice and it can and will be argued very confidently that whatever test conditions you apply will not be the same as those applied by TVR at the time you car was made. How can you disprove that? The answer is that you can't.
Best bet get the dealer to sort out the tuning/compensation and don't waste your money or time pursuing TVR.

Nuff said

Tivster

2 sheds

2,529 posts

283 months

Thursday 4th September 2003
quotequote all
Tam Lin said:

2 sheds said:
.. the published TVR power figures represent the press cars etc and are probably not far off.
Tim


Hi Tim,
Not sure about the press cars, all the reviews I've been able to grab imply otherwise: i.e. Autocar claim to have rolling roaded the 4.2 and it was on spec, but they never managed the same performance out of the 4.5 they road tested. 70 odd bhp would be detectable, methinks.

Also not sure that 420 BHP would be undriveable, especially if it occured at high RPM: our Cerb has more BHP than SGirl's Griff 500 used to have, but it was the low-down torque in the Griff that I found more difficult to harness: there was no such thing as moving off gently on a low-grip surface in that thing wheras even a slow-reacting numpty like me can manage to avoid going over 6000 rpm in traffic, where things get "interesting" in the 4.2 Cerb.
Sean


I think the Red press 450 had an engine fault when returned to the factory hence low performance figures recorded.
I wouldn't suggest that 420bhp would be undrivable, the tuscan racers make around this, you would just need to adapt your driving habits. assuming you use TVRs induction 80 bhp extra would be at a cost to low end drivability.
Tim
Tim

williamball

4,251 posts

281 months

Thursday 4th September 2003
quotequote all
...now if only you'd bought a 4.2 - they usually seem to make power in the region of what's quoted

WB

Tivster

359 posts

249 months

Thursday 4th September 2003
quotequote all
williamball said:
...now if only you'd bought a 4.2 - they usually seem to make power in the region of what's quoted

WB

Yupp, mine did - a little over in fact

kevinday

11,555 posts

279 months

Friday 5th September 2003
quotequote all
Jamster said:
Does anyone know what ISO standard TVR manufacture to? Mind you they prob dont bother about quality standards! This would help grately as this defines operational and quality objectives, goals, practices, guildlines which MUST be adhered to otherwise you loose your accredetation and thus ability to produce any product ie cars!!

Hope this helps!


Sorry Jamster but you are talking rubbish. There is absolutely no requirement for a company to comply with ISO standards at all. Companies that do can state they are ISO certified or whatever, and this may help their sales, in some areas (e.g. producing goods for the government) in which it is required to win contracts, but building cars is not one of them.

If Koo bought the car second-hand he has no chance of any compensation, money back or exchange - 'Caveat Emptor' unless the garage signed a document stating the car produced 420 bhp. IMHO he should get on and enjoy driving the car, instead of whinging about an overstated bhp figure in sales literature. If bought new he would probably have to prove that he stated the 420 bhp was a definite requirement for any action to succeed, providing the car is capable of the performance figures quoted, and I have not seen any complaints on that score......

dannylt

1,906 posts

283 months

Friday 5th September 2003
quotequote all
I await Koo's response eagerly...

gazzab

21,061 posts

281 months

Friday 5th September 2003
quotequote all
I thought he said the car was new? ie not second hand?

gl911

76 posts

259 months

Friday 5th September 2003
quotequote all
Koo's mail mentions a new car. As someone who deals with lawyers all the time, I have run this past some of them, and they all concur: TVR does not stand any chance if they cannot reliably reproduce the power quotes found in their documentation, which is used as a basis for making a purchasing decision.

This is certainly one of the most interesting posts, and I am certainly awaiting what is going to come out of it and how far Koo plans on taking this. I love cars and I love TVRs, I have owned a 1965 Griffith 200 and currently own a very radical Tuscan Racer and about to get a 4.5 LW Cerbera, I have a VERY hard time swallowing that it is ok to mislead buyers, no matter how fast the car goes now, it doesn't go as fast as it could. I believe that TVR must have a logical answer for this, it would be great if they shared it.

Joe Cozy

64 posts

259 months

Friday 5th September 2003
quotequote all
Re does the literature contravene Trade Descriptions Act if bhp does not meet in individual cases...

I'm not a practising lawyer but as I understand it, most of the time car companies describe 'best of' performance. 0-60 for example. They do a series of test and select the best results. Most production cars in a day to day environment dont perform like that.

Question is what's an acceptable variation from the best(or from the average if it's the average that's quoted). If there is wide variation, perhaps there is more onus on the manufacturer to bring that to the attention of the buyer? for example if best was 440 and average 390 is 320 ok or not? Probably comes down to standard deviations and stats.

I would expect with hand built etc tvrs that some variation would be expected question is what's reasonable...
TOPIC CLOSED
TOPIC CLOSED