Dyno Disappointment
Discussion
Maybe some of you guys don’t fully understand…
Cerbera 4.5 - Engine 4.5
4475cc alloy V8 engine
Capacity:
4475 cc
Max Power:
420 bhp @ 6750 rpm
Max torque:
380 ft.lbs @ 5500 rpm
0 to 60 mph:
3.9 secs
0 to 100 mph:
8.3 secs
0 to 150 mph:
17.9 secs
Maximum:
195 mph
What part of this don’t some of you understand?
For clarification, I bought the car from new.
As for performance my previous M3 out performed it. However, I have spoken to the dealer and they are going to get the problem rectified, I will keep you posted.
Kevinday: You are the one who is talking rubbish. Even though I was told by the dealer that the 4.5 had 420 BHP and I said I wanted that because it had 420 BHP as opposed to the 4.2 @ 360 BHP this is not the point, I never stated I wanted 18” wheels, now I don’t see 17” on the car etc… etc… (The Trade Descriptions Act ensures that descriptions of goods, prices and services are accurate and not misleading.) The underlined word is misleading.
I refer to my first post:
“I have recently bought a NEW Cerbera 4.5 only find out today it only has 320 BHP and 328 LBS/FT Torque; what's up with that?
In my opinion that is grossly under powered as so far as the quotes from the manufacturers say. Is there something wrong with my car or is this standard?...”
Well it turns out there obviously is something wrong with it, so all this bs about how, where, under what conditions was the engine tested is as I say bs. When they advertise these figures this doesn’t come into it. What… is one to assume? I see don’t assume for the 4.2 but lets all speculate for the 4.5. And you know what assuming is??? The mother of all…..
When you are advised by the reseller that you will be getting 420 BHP with the 4.5 as opposed to 360 with the 4.2 or 350 with the 4.0 and this is backed up both in the literature and on the official web site of the manufacturer. That is what one would expect. (Period)
I have had other cars that have been dyno’ed, they are in accordance with the factory figures. We are not talking about a 20 BHP difference which I agree could be argued as to the conditions the car was tested. This is drastically less.
(The Trade Descriptions Act ensures that descriptions of goods, prices and services are accurate and not misleading.)
Nevertheless this is not the point as they are going to rectify the problem; I just wanted to set some things straight.
Again thanks guys for your support.
Cerbera 4.5 - Engine 4.5
4475cc alloy V8 engine
Capacity:
4475 cc
Max Power:
420 bhp @ 6750 rpm
Max torque:
380 ft.lbs @ 5500 rpm
0 to 60 mph:
3.9 secs
0 to 100 mph:
8.3 secs
0 to 150 mph:
17.9 secs
Maximum:
195 mph
What part of this don’t some of you understand?
For clarification, I bought the car from new.
As for performance my previous M3 out performed it. However, I have spoken to the dealer and they are going to get the problem rectified, I will keep you posted.
Kevinday: You are the one who is talking rubbish. Even though I was told by the dealer that the 4.5 had 420 BHP and I said I wanted that because it had 420 BHP as opposed to the 4.2 @ 360 BHP this is not the point, I never stated I wanted 18” wheels, now I don’t see 17” on the car etc… etc… (The Trade Descriptions Act ensures that descriptions of goods, prices and services are accurate and not misleading.) The underlined word is misleading.
I refer to my first post:
“I have recently bought a NEW Cerbera 4.5 only find out today it only has 320 BHP and 328 LBS/FT Torque; what's up with that?
In my opinion that is grossly under powered as so far as the quotes from the manufacturers say. Is there something wrong with my car or is this standard?...”
Well it turns out there obviously is something wrong with it, so all this bs about how, where, under what conditions was the engine tested is as I say bs. When they advertise these figures this doesn’t come into it. What… is one to assume? I see don’t assume for the 4.2 but lets all speculate for the 4.5. And you know what assuming is??? The mother of all…..
When you are advised by the reseller that you will be getting 420 BHP with the 4.5 as opposed to 360 with the 4.2 or 350 with the 4.0 and this is backed up both in the literature and on the official web site of the manufacturer. That is what one would expect. (Period)
I have had other cars that have been dyno’ed, they are in accordance with the factory figures. We are not talking about a 20 BHP difference which I agree could be argued as to the conditions the car was tested. This is drastically less.
(The Trade Descriptions Act ensures that descriptions of goods, prices and services are accurate and not misleading.)
Nevertheless this is not the point as they are going to rectify the problem; I just wanted to set some things straight.
Again thanks guys for your support.
. I don’t really care how they do it, just that they do it. As for “lucky” I would not consider myself lucky to have less power than what was intended for the standard model.
Before I knew I had power loss issues; I was thinking of upgrading to the Red Rose for even more power (440 BHP) on the basis I already had 420. So… if they do rectify it by adding the Red Rose where does that leave me regarding the 440 BHP or there abuts, without getting silly?
However Danny, 400 BHP and 380 LBS/FT Torque or above would be more palatable.
Koo
Before I knew I had power loss issues; I was thinking of upgrading to the Red Rose for even more power (440 BHP) on the basis I already had 420. So… if they do rectify it by adding the Red Rose where does that leave me regarding the 440 BHP or there abuts, without getting silly?
However Danny, 400 BHP and 380 LBS/FT Torque or above would be more palatable.
Koo
I know its a bit late but something else to add to this debate (as if it needs it)
In my experience testing this amount of power on a rolling road is difficult, you need at least 2 people in the boot for a start, when i took my 350 bhp Tuscan racer to a rolling road a couple of years ago to sort out an over fuelling problem, it wasn't possible to record the maximum power because of wheel spin, we just couldn't get enough grip the dyno recorded 320 bhp but you can detect from the power curve that it was something wrong, and i can verify that it was a 350+ bhp engine.
Bench dyno is the only fair way to compare properly , example the Engine builders dynos record 270bhp for a typical late Griffith 500, and yet some rolling roads calculate as low as 240.
This is not a criticism of rolling roads, i use them all the time, but in some cases the figures IMO are a bit suspect, however it does appear that the 4.5 Cerbera is inherently down on power, has anybody bench dyno'd one ?
Tim
In my experience testing this amount of power on a rolling road is difficult, you need at least 2 people in the boot for a start, when i took my 350 bhp Tuscan racer to a rolling road a couple of years ago to sort out an over fuelling problem, it wasn't possible to record the maximum power because of wheel spin, we just couldn't get enough grip the dyno recorded 320 bhp but you can detect from the power curve that it was something wrong, and i can verify that it was a 350+ bhp engine.
Bench dyno is the only fair way to compare properly , example the Engine builders dynos record 270bhp for a typical late Griffith 500, and yet some rolling roads calculate as low as 240.
This is not a criticism of rolling roads, i use them all the time, but in some cases the figures IMO are a bit suspect, however it does appear that the 4.5 Cerbera is inherently down on power, has anybody bench dyno'd one ?
Tim
dannylt said:
2 sheds - I'm not sure why the road you used had such problems with wheelspin? All the run I've done (from 350 to 400) were completed without wheelspin, either obvious or from spiking dips in the torque graph.
To be fare the Tuscan was 300 kg lighter than a Cerbera, with Rover engined TVRs anything over 275 bhp and 275 lb ft really needs extra weight in the boot, with wheel spin the power graph can sometimes drop off without spiking making it look like the car just ran out of "puff". I guess the more linear power delivery of the AJP will help and probably explain why Griffs etc are prone to snapping sideways.
I'm still curious as to what a 4.5 AJP would make on a bench dyno, maybe the 320-330 figures are correct? but me being the optimist would like to think that we are missing a few extra bhp .
looks like i'll be opting for the 4.2 when i can afford one
Tim
I just use Joolz sitting on the boot - though he's really not that heavy, it's pretty scary with a straight through exhaust spitting flames around your feet!
I don't see why the 4.5 should fare any differently to a 4.2 on a rolling road, and the same road has happily read over 420bhp from another Red Rose 4.5, so I would expect a bench dyno to show the same results.
When you think the race Tuscan AJP 4.5 engines have around 450bhp, it's not surprising the road engine has lost 100bhp in it's compromised exhaust, inlets, cams, driveability, emissions, safety margin etc.
danny
I don't see why the 4.5 should fare any differently to a 4.2 on a rolling road, and the same road has happily read over 420bhp from another Red Rose 4.5, so I would expect a bench dyno to show the same results.
When you think the race Tuscan AJP 4.5 engines have around 450bhp, it's not surprising the road engine has lost 100bhp in it's compromised exhaust, inlets, cams, driveability, emissions, safety margin etc.
danny
when i put mine on the dyno with joolz we did the first run with him in the boot but did experience some slip,so i jumped aboard for another run(being heavier than joolz)and we got a better run.
i was happy with 343 bhp from a early 4.2.
mike.
ps. it is pretty noisy/scary when at full bore.
i was happy with 343 bhp from a early 4.2.
mike.
ps. it is pretty noisy/scary when at full bore.
Major mass manufacturer versus small scale hand built manufacturer no contest. Mazda can do it as they have billions put aside for design, development and marketing. But no one notices a Mazda, yet you'll always get seen in a TVR and not just by the engine rumble.
It's the personalisation that also makes TVR stand out from the bland. Choice of colours/leather and specification. I bet you chose a great colour for yours, what did you go for?
It's the personalisation that also makes TVR stand out from the bland. Choice of colours/leather and specification. I bet you chose a great colour for yours, what did you go for?
“One thing that spring to mind
that’s in America, they have far better consumer protection than we do, for a start a lemon list. Also competition is far greater over there than here”
What kind of bs is that?
No they don’t, they have the similar laws as we do which protect the consumer against false advertising.
I lived in California for nine years, and I must admit when I first arrived there was a difference, but not so much now. The real difference is within the mindset of the people in this country, they are too easily intimidated, always settling for second best, always making do, always being shate on and saying, “never mind I’ll clean it off”
As for the “lemon list” in all the nine years I was there I never heard of a “lemon list” is that a technical phrase?
However the point is; the law is the law no matter how big or small.
that’s in America, they have far better consumer protection than we do, for a start a lemon list. Also competition is far greater over there than here”
What kind of bs is that?
No they don’t, they have the similar laws as we do which protect the consumer against false advertising.
I lived in California for nine years, and I must admit when I first arrived there was a difference, but not so much now. The real difference is within the mindset of the people in this country, they are too easily intimidated, always settling for second best, always making do, always being shate on and saying, “never mind I’ll clean it off”
As for the “lemon list” in all the nine years I was there I never heard of a “lemon list” is that a technical phrase?
However the point is; the law is the law no matter how big or small.
One lemon list
www.lemonlaw.com/lemonlist.html
bye bye
>> Edited by pies on Sunday 7th September 16:42
www.lemonlaw.com/lemonlist.html
bye bye >> Edited by pies on Sunday 7th September 16:42
Koo said:
Maybe some of you guys don’t fully understand…
Cerbera 4.5 - Engine 4.5
4475cc alloy V8 engine
Capacity:
4475 cc
Max Power:
420 bhp @ 6750 rpm
Max torque:
380 ft.lbs @ 5500 rpm
0 to 60 mph:
3.9 secs
0 to 100 mph:
8.3 secs
0 to 150 mph:
17.9 secs
Maximum:
195 mph
What part of this don’t some of you understand?
For clarification, I bought the car from new.
As for performance my previous M3 out performed it. However, I have spoken to the dealer and they are going to get the problem rectified, I will keep you posted.
Kevinday: You are the one who is talking rubbish. Even though I was told by the dealer that the 4.5 had 420 BHP and I said I wanted that because it had 420 BHP as opposed to the 4.2 @ 360 BHP this is not the point, I never stated I wanted 18” wheels, now I don’t see 17” on the car etc… etc… (The Trade Descriptions Act ensures that descriptions of goods, prices and services are accurate and not misleading.) The underlined word is misleading.
I refer to my first post:
“I have recently bought a NEW Cerbera 4.5 only find out today it only has 320 BHP and 328 LBS/FT Torque; what's up with that?
In my opinion that is grossly under powered as so far as the quotes from the manufacturers say. Is there something wrong with my car or is this standard?...”
Well it turns out there obviously is something wrong with it, so all this bs about how, where, under what conditions was the engine tested is as I say bs. When they advertise these figures this doesn’t come into it. What… is one to assume? I see don’t assume for the 4.2 but lets all speculate for the 4.5. And you know what assuming is??? The mother of all…..
When you are advised by the reseller that you will be getting 420 BHP with the 4.5 as opposed to 360 with the 4.2 or 350 with the 4.0 and this is backed up both in the literature and on the official web site of the manufacturer. That is what one would expect. (Period)
I have had other cars that have been dyno’ed, they are in accordance with the factory figures. We are not talking about a 20 BHP difference which I agree could be argued as to the conditions the car was tested. This is drastically less.
(The Trade Descriptions Act ensures that descriptions of goods, prices and services are accurate and not misleading.)
Nevertheless this is not the point as they are going to rectify the problem; I just wanted to set some things straight.
Again thanks guys for your support.
Koo, you are quite correct. Here's some info on ISO and automotive manufacture. Think Kevinday has got the wrong end of the stick. If TVR do comply with the automotive ISO standards it makes your job very straight forward. Doubt if they will though.
c link below.
http://emea.bsi-global.com/Automotive/Overview/VMRequirements.xalter
For what its worth I think you have got a valid point.
If I new what I now understand about the horsepower.(ie Its a completley fictcious figure) I might not have bought a Cerbera. Its not like you can thrash the nuts out of a potetial purchase on a test drive.
I think you should take the car back and ask for it to be fixed under warranty as it must be broken if it only makes the power you say.
If I new what I now understand about the horsepower.(ie Its a completley fictcious figure) I might not have bought a Cerbera. Its not like you can thrash the nuts out of a potetial purchase on a test drive.
I think you should take the car back and ask for it to be fixed under warranty as it must be broken if it only makes the power you say.
Koo,
Great to hear that it will be rectified, as I said I have a battery of lawyers that work for my company and they all concurred on the fact that you had a case that could not be negated.
Would you be kind enough to post what the dealer is planning on doing to your car and the actual outcome. I am getting my LW this week, from a nice guy on the site 10,000 miles), but I suspect that it will be off the TVR claimed 420 bhp, anything else now after reading all these posts would be surprising, and thus I would be interested to make some changes once I have driven the car as is, until the next service. I am intrigued RR conversion?
Thanks
Great to hear that it will be rectified, as I said I have a battery of lawyers that work for my company and they all concurred on the fact that you had a case that could not be negated.
Would you be kind enough to post what the dealer is planning on doing to your car and the actual outcome. I am getting my LW this week, from a nice guy on the site 10,000 miles), but I suspect that it will be off the TVR claimed 420 bhp, anything else now after reading all these posts would be surprising, and thus I would be interested to make some changes once I have driven the car as is, until the next service. I am intrigued RR conversion?
Thanks
Koo,
I had mine rolling roaded when I first bought it but I already did my research before buying & knew they were down on the stated BHP figures. Mine came out quite low but there were a few things wrong & was down on around 20BHP, I've got that back now but still no way near the 420 mark.
But I don't give a s**t, this was the best purchase I've ever made in a car & there's no way you can compare it to an M3 EVO, even with that power the Cerb will tear it apart & most other cars on the road.
I'd only swap mine for a RR or if I had another £100K to spend maybe a Lambo but that's a whopping £100K on top, not many of us have that kind of cash to spend on a motor & even then I'd probably still only want a Cerbera.
You have a fair point & good luck but I'd enjoy the car & don't let those figures ruin the thrill and fun of driving it unless you're intending on racing it. On the road there just isn't enough of it for the Cerbera whether you've got 300 or 400 BHP. Believe me, I'm still smiling after 7K in it & it never bores me. Tell me another car for the money that looks & goes like this? In one day I made 2 elderly women nearly have a heart attack, 3 people take pictures of it, a car full of pretty girls......, hit 130 in silly seconds then set off all my neighbours car alarms.. Now tell me, isn't that worth being down on BHP??? T.
I had mine rolling roaded when I first bought it but I already did my research before buying & knew they were down on the stated BHP figures. Mine came out quite low but there were a few things wrong & was down on around 20BHP, I've got that back now but still no way near the 420 mark.
But I don't give a s**t, this was the best purchase I've ever made in a car & there's no way you can compare it to an M3 EVO, even with that power the Cerb will tear it apart & most other cars on the road.
I'd only swap mine for a RR or if I had another £100K to spend maybe a Lambo but that's a whopping £100K on top, not many of us have that kind of cash to spend on a motor & even then I'd probably still only want a Cerbera.
You have a fair point & good luck but I'd enjoy the car & don't let those figures ruin the thrill and fun of driving it unless you're intending on racing it. On the road there just isn't enough of it for the Cerbera whether you've got 300 or 400 BHP. Believe me, I'm still smiling after 7K in it & it never bores me. Tell me another car for the money that looks & goes like this? In one day I made 2 elderly women nearly have a heart attack, 3 people take pictures of it, a car full of pretty girls......, hit 130 in silly seconds then set off all my neighbours car alarms.. Now tell me, isn't that worth being down on BHP??? T.
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