Harry talks about detail....
Discussion
toppstuff said:
Well, its an interesting debate and I thank you for your contribution because I am learning something. I've already been googling about pre-preg carbon as used by Koeniggsegg, so I am learning as well..
Mind you, Pagani are using carbon fibre with a titanium element - no idea if this is pretty and shiny or contributes to strength.. how this compares to pre-preg I have no idea. Maybe Pagani use pre-preg too...
You're welcome. Mind you, Pagani are using carbon fibre with a titanium element - no idea if this is pretty and shiny or contributes to strength.. how this compares to pre-preg I have no idea. Maybe Pagani use pre-preg too...
I think you misunderstood the difference between the monocoques. It's not pre-preg vs carbotanium but a aluminium honeycomb construction vs. a stand alone carbotanium sollution. Pagani also use pre-preg or dry weave (that's what the autoclave is for, to cure the pre-preg) which is carbon fiber weave pre-impregnated with resin. The result is a bond that is so strong that when you cure it lacks any joints between the different layers of carbon fiber. It's like two welded pieces of metal or two rebars bonded by concrete; the bond is as strong as the properties of the resin itself. Hot injection or wet weave on the other hand is carbon fiber weave that is brushed with resin and pieced together like glass fibre. For obvious reasons it will have many added variables compared to pre-preg that translates to weak spots where the bond can break.
Concerning the difference between aluminium honeycomb and carbotanium, then a stand alone carbotanium sollution kind of acts like aluminum honeycomb in keeping the carbon fiber together except it's considerably weaker and don't have the ability to compress and absorb energy. If you consider the two layers of carbon fiber and the honeycomb structure sandwiched between them as being the equivalent to a steel I-beam with two flanes and a connecting web in the middle supporting each other; then a single layer of carbotanium would be a slightly higher grade sheet metal with a bit more tensile and shear strength but not nearly as much tensile, shear and compressive strength as the total construction of a I-beam; being that it's still just sheet metal regardless of steel quality... Another good analogy would be comparing a sligthly thicker piece of paper to a thinner variant that's been made into cardboard: naturally the cardboard will be much stronger even if you compare it to a good quality 300 gram paper.
Thanks to the honeycomb cells fractures will also be small and local unlike the web in a I-beam; it doesn't matter if you break ten or a hundred cells since each cell and resin bond is self supportive. You literally have thousands of of bonds keeping the carbon fiber together all over the carbon fiber surface, whereas a construction without honeycomb will be joined and bonded at the edges.
Top: Pagani carbotanium waffer being built.
Bottom: A cross section of one wall in the Koenigsegg aluminium honeycomb monocoque.
toppstuff said:
One thing I would say, however, is that I am not sure the new Pagani IS a competitor to the Agera. The Pagani seems like a mental GT car to me, while the Agera seems to be a much more hardcore scary weapon, with a lot more power and aggression.
What is certain, is that I am very happy that both manufacturers exist and are both delivering amazing vehicles. Both of them overshadow the Veyron as far as I am concerned..
I would agree that Pagani builds exceptional cars, but, it's not without it's flaws and like Koenigsegg they've made some distinct choices on where to spend their limited resources. Koenigsegg obviously has burnt most of their gun powder on fundamentals like engine, set-up and safety while Pagani has taken the route of design and luxury. In a pefect world there would be one car epitomizing all aspects but for now it's still the stereotypical "swedish engineering" vs "italian design" that separates these cars.What is certain, is that I am very happy that both manufacturers exist and are both delivering amazing vehicles. Both of them overshadow the Veyron as far as I am concerned..
The Veyron combines the qualities of both but is a master of none imho. All-in-all it's probably the best build but lacks the mind blowing extremes at either end of the spectrum. It's very german...
I would be interested to learn from you Tom73 of where you see the flaws in the Pagani.
I absolutely concur with the conclusion that each car very much reflects the nationality that produces it.
Pagani - Italianate Fine Art Light, further inspiration from South American inhibition. Beauty, for the love of it.
Bugatti - German thoroughness, performance as described on tin. Must be 1000hp/400 kph ...
K'segg - Swedish heavy handed, brute force born of being in the dark half the time.
Interesting all.
So where's the truest epitome of a 'supercar hypercar' in all this?
I absolutely concur with the conclusion that each car very much reflects the nationality that produces it.
Pagani - Italianate Fine Art Light, further inspiration from South American inhibition. Beauty, for the love of it.
Bugatti - German thoroughness, performance as described on tin. Must be 1000hp/400 kph ...
K'segg - Swedish heavy handed, brute force born of being in the dark half the time.
Interesting all.
So where's the truest epitome of a 'supercar hypercar' in all this?
ph123 said:
I would be interested to learn from you Tom73 of where you see the flaws in the Pagani.
I absolutely concur with the conclusion that each car very much reflects the nationality that produces it.
Pagani - Italianate Fine Art Light, further inspiration from South American inhibition. Beauty, for the love of it.
Bugatti - German thoroughness, performance as described on tin. Must be 1000hp/400 kph ...
K'segg - Swedish heavy handed, brute force born of being in the dark half the time.
Interesting all.
So where's the truest epitome of a 'supercar hypercar' in all this?
Not so sure about "heavy handed, brute force" is a accurate way of describing the region that produces Veyron's Haldex AWD and Pagani's Öhlins dampers and SKF rear axle bearings. If Koenigsegg really was that heavy handed then surely Pagani wouldn't turn for technical support from suppliers that in turn asks Koenigsegg to help them testbed Pagani's parts? Getting 1140 hp out of a 5 litre engine quite obviously comes with a little more trickery than doing it with a 6, 6,3 or 8 litre engine as well. And the amount of innovation in the dynamic flow catalyctic converter system, response boost control, dihedral synchro-helix actuation doors, camless engines, chrono cluster, progressive z-style anti-roll bar, triplex suspension, aircore carbon wheels, bio fuel tech and so on also makes Pagani look a little bit kit car in comparison. Like a blinged out version of Hennessey and SSC. A heavy handed overuse of stickers, christmas lights and "exquisite" things like anodizing that are shared with other "exquisite" products like ricers and bicycles... I absolutely concur with the conclusion that each car very much reflects the nationality that produces it.
Pagani - Italianate Fine Art Light, further inspiration from South American inhibition. Beauty, for the love of it.
Bugatti - German thoroughness, performance as described on tin. Must be 1000hp/400 kph ...
K'segg - Swedish heavy handed, brute force born of being in the dark half the time.
Interesting all.
So where's the truest epitome of a 'supercar hypercar' in all this?
Pagani's flaws are plentyful and more so in the Huayra than the Zonda. The suspension is really not optimal for the track because they have fairly short wishbones which eqautes to more track deviation. The monocoque and the active wings as been mentioned are borderline eye candy. The aerodynamics is a little bit s
t. The exhausts are exposed titanium which raises underbonnet temperatures. The engine is shared with SL65's and albeit slightly modified and given an own number it's still a fairly basic, old engine that's been given Pagani's typical blinged out facelift to appear as something it's not. Other pet peeves would be things like the rims that Pagani promises will act like turbines but that have vanes that are angled to blow air into the brakes rather than sucking it out. You get the feeling that some engineer created them and then some slick italian designer bloke had a look at them and went "No, not like this! It looks better this way! Bellissimo!".
I mean, I could nitpick like this all day on things that just rubs me the wrong way and that I see as ill fitting to this type of car. They're like wooden Moggies, except they're claiming not to be. It's silly. They're basically invading a segment of cars that should be reserved for cutting edge performance and making a mockery of it with cheap "bling".
It's not so much that they're poor cars, because they're not, but if you're building a Spyker or a Moggie or a Aston Martin then sell it as such. If you're aiming at being the next Macca F1 then make sure it comes with a element of hyper. I'm well aware that some of the things mentioned as weaknesses may be seen as aesthetical strengths by those that do not agree with this performance sentiment of mine and that you do have to take into account that in order for them to make a profit there's a level of compromise to be had between the two extremes, but that doesn't necessarily mean I have to approve of Pagani's choices as a whole. I can appreciate that some will love Lady Gaga too, but it doesn't mean that I will have to agree that she's any good.
So don't get me wrong, I love christmas and I enjoyed a good game of pinball as much as the next bloke when growing up. And gold colours does indeed look the part. Those elements combined doesn't make a good hypercar though, imho.
Well, thank you Tom for elucidating your pet peeves.
I don't think the Huayra however is Pagani's 'hypercar'.
I think I heard somewhere that comes next.
And certainly not at 850K Euros whatever.
The day TG spun the big Swede, only for it to reappeared a week later with a rear wing tacked on was the day personally, I took that company less seriously ...
As I said elsewhere, think I'll stick with Messers Harris, Sutcliffe, Metcalfe & Bovingdon's impressions on the Huayra thank you again.
I don't think the Huayra however is Pagani's 'hypercar'.
I think I heard somewhere that comes next.
And certainly not at 850K Euros whatever.
The day TG spun the big Swede, only for it to reappeared a week later with a rear wing tacked on was the day personally, I took that company less seriously ...
As I said elsewhere, think I'll stick with Messers Harris, Sutcliffe, Metcalfe & Bovingdon's impressions on the Huayra thank you again.
ph123 said:
Well, thank you Tom for elucidating your pet peeves.
I don't think the Huayra however is Pagani's 'hypercar'.
I think I heard somewhere that comes next.
And certainly not at 850K Euros whatever.
The day TG spun the big Swede, only for it to reappeared a week later with a rear wing tacked on was the day personally, I took that company less seriously ...
As I said elsewhere, think I'll stick with Messers Harris, Sutcliffe, Metcalfe & Bovingdon's impressions on the Huayra thank you again.
Nothing wrong with a bit of harmless fun with the rear wing! Surely most would know it was just a different chassis setup (with a lot less over-steer) ...I don't think the Huayra however is Pagani's 'hypercar'.
I think I heard somewhere that comes next.
And certainly not at 850K Euros whatever.
The day TG spun the big Swede, only for it to reappeared a week later with a rear wing tacked on was the day personally, I took that company less seriously ...
As I said elsewhere, think I'll stick with Messers Harris, Sutcliffe, Metcalfe & Bovingdon's impressions on the Huayra thank you again.
Tom73 said:
ph123 said:
I would be interested to learn from you Tom73 of where you see the flaws in the Pagani.
I absolutely concur with the conclusion that each car very much reflects the nationality that produces it.
Pagani - Italianate Fine Art Light, further inspiration from South American inhibition. Beauty, for the love of it.
Bugatti - German thoroughness, performance as described on tin. Must be 1000hp/400 kph ...
K'segg - Swedish heavy handed, brute force born of being in the dark half the time.
Interesting all.
So where's the truest epitome of a 'supercar hypercar' in all this?
Not so sure about "heavy handed, brute force" is a accurate way of describing the region that produces Veyron's Haldex AWD and Pagani's Öhlins dampers and SKF rear axle bearings. If Koenigsegg really was that heavy handed then surely Pagani wouldn't turn for technical support from suppliers that in turn asks Koenigsegg to help them testbed Pagani's parts? Getting 1140 hp out of a 5 litre engine quite obviously comes with a little more trickery than doing it with a 6, 6,3 or 8 litre engine as well. And the amount of innovation in the dynamic flow catalyctic converter system, response boost control, dihedral synchro-helix actuation doors, camless engines, chrono cluster, progressive z-style anti-roll bar, triplex suspension, aircore carbon wheels, bio fuel tech and so on also makes Pagani look a little bit kit car in comparison. Like a blinged out version of Hennessey and SSC. A heavy handed overuse of stickers, christmas lights and "exquisite" things like anodizing that are shared with other "exquisite" products like ricers and bicycles... I absolutely concur with the conclusion that each car very much reflects the nationality that produces it.
Pagani - Italianate Fine Art Light, further inspiration from South American inhibition. Beauty, for the love of it.
Bugatti - German thoroughness, performance as described on tin. Must be 1000hp/400 kph ...
K'segg - Swedish heavy handed, brute force born of being in the dark half the time.
Interesting all.
So where's the truest epitome of a 'supercar hypercar' in all this?
Pagani's flaws are plentyful and more so in the Huayra than the Zonda. The suspension is really not optimal for the track because they have fairly short wishbones which eqautes to more track deviation. The monocoque and the active wings as been mentioned are borderline eye candy. The aerodynamics is a little bit s
t. The exhausts are exposed titanium which raises underbonnet temperatures. The engine is shared with SL65's and albeit slightly modified and given an own number it's still a fairly basic, old engine that's been given Pagani's typical blinged out facelift to appear as something it's not. Other pet peeves would be things like the rims that Pagani promises will act like turbines but that have vanes that are angled to blow air into the brakes rather than sucking it out. You get the feeling that some engineer created them and then some slick italian designer bloke had a look at them and went "No, not like this! It looks better this way! Bellissimo!".
I mean, I could nitpick like this all day on things that just rubs me the wrong way and that I see as ill fitting to this type of car. They're like wooden Moggies, except they're claiming not to be. It's silly. They're basically invading a segment of cars that should be reserved for cutting edge performance and making a mockery of it with cheap "bling".
It's not so much that they're poor cars, because they're not, but if you're building a Spyker or a Moggie or a Aston Martin then sell it as such. If you're aiming at being the next Macca F1 then make sure it comes with a element of hyper. I'm well aware that some of the things mentioned as weaknesses may be seen as aesthetical strengths by those that do not agree with this performance sentiment of mine and that you do have to take into account that in order for them to make a profit there's a level of compromise to be had between the two extremes, but that doesn't necessarily mean I have to approve of Pagani's choices as a whole. I can appreciate that some will love Lady Gaga too, but it doesn't mean that I will have to agree that she's any good.
So don't get me wrong, I love christmas and I enjoyed a good game of pinball as much as the next bloke when growing up. And gold colours does indeed look the part. Those elements combined doesn't make a good hypercar though, imho.
And so the debate rages on. So Koenigsegg test beds Pagani parts then, so which exact parts are those then?
As for getting over 1100 HP out of a 5.0 engine, that's nothing new, Nelson racing engines having been building 1500hp twin turbo street engines for years, and having driven one I can attest to how great they are.
Now too that door mechanism, yes it makes for great street theatre, and was seen as the best solution to the fact the Eggs are so flipping wide. The problem is that if the kerb you park next too is just a little too high, i.e. like most in London, then the door hits the ground with a very embarrassing and expensive crunch, so how much will that touch up cost then....
Camless engines, again nothing new to see here, various manufactures have played with the idea. Yes the theory is good (infinitely variable valve timing etc etc) but don’t make it out to be a Koenigsegg innovation
The Chrono Cluster, yeah so what???
The Aircore Carbon wheels, last time I looked carbon did not dent well, so what happens when you kerb one?? Personally I would never drive a car with carbon wheels; an encounter with a decent pothole could be catastrophic
Now too the Huayra, we have already established that it is not a track car so why would it need a suspension systems optimised for the track? But on the flip side you do realise I hope that the Huayra suspension has been taken directly from the Zonda R with only the bushings being changed for street versions. And the last time I looked the Zonda R looked pretty handy on the track as various records would seem to bear out.
Lets for augment sake say the Exhaust is bare titanium, has it caused thermal problems? Well the answer is no so what is the problem?
The Pagani bling thing, that is just a finish and is down to the customer to decide if they want it or not. Personally I prefer the black anodised interior of the Cinque, Lewis Hamilton prefers his in purple. Also if you compare the Christmas tree look I think the Huayra and the Agera are about equal
You seem to have set yourself up as some kind of arbiter of what should or should not be classified as a hypercar and seem to take it personally that Pagani have proven to be more commercially successful than Koenigsegg.
The fact that both companies have chosen to go different ways in developing their cars should be celebrated, it is then down to us as consumers to decide which we prefer
Edited by Streetrod on Wednesday 18th July 13:43
I must agree that this has turned into an interesting technical thread.
I have some sympathy for the notion that the Pagani is all about beautiful engineering and aesthetics, while the Koeniggsegg is very business-like and focused.
In so many ways, this is a situation where all the stereotypes apply. We have Pagani, bathed in Italian sunshine, with an enigmatic Latin type running the company and a muscled, tattooed Italian alpha male being the test driver. On the other hand, we have Koeniggsegg, which is so stereotypically Scandinavian. What's more, the "Egg is not just typically Scandinavian, it is also made on a military base and somehow it shows.
The Pagani is clearly tilted toward the aesthetic, while the Koeniggsegg is like something that is built by an aerospace company - not particularly aesthetically pleasing, but built for a purpose.
On a practical level, the use of aluminium honeycomb with carbon in the "Egg seems to me to be a major elevation over the Pagani.
The Egg looks perfectly entitled to share garage space with a Saab Gripen jet fighter. The Pagani Huayra would share its space with a fine painting.
It is perhaps pointless to try and compare them. It seems to me that they appeal to different parts of the brain..
I have some sympathy for the notion that the Pagani is all about beautiful engineering and aesthetics, while the Koeniggsegg is very business-like and focused.
In so many ways, this is a situation where all the stereotypes apply. We have Pagani, bathed in Italian sunshine, with an enigmatic Latin type running the company and a muscled, tattooed Italian alpha male being the test driver. On the other hand, we have Koeniggsegg, which is so stereotypically Scandinavian. What's more, the "Egg is not just typically Scandinavian, it is also made on a military base and somehow it shows.
The Pagani is clearly tilted toward the aesthetic, while the Koeniggsegg is like something that is built by an aerospace company - not particularly aesthetically pleasing, but built for a purpose.
On a practical level, the use of aluminium honeycomb with carbon in the "Egg seems to me to be a major elevation over the Pagani.
The Egg looks perfectly entitled to share garage space with a Saab Gripen jet fighter. The Pagani Huayra would share its space with a fine painting.
It is perhaps pointless to try and compare them. It seems to me that they appeal to different parts of the brain..
What I'm looking forward too is an Agera/Huayra comparison test. Over the last few weeks the Pagani has been reviewed by all the English mags along with various associated videos and a number of continental ones too, and to a man the reviews have all been very positive. The Agera has actually been available for a lot longer but has if I remember rightly only been reviewed by Chris Harris and he was not that impressed. Koenigsegg's recent straight line record runs have been very impressive, but are no more impressive than a number of street legal dragsters I can think of, so why no road tests??
Evening Gents,
Christian has been reading this thread with great interest and asked me to post the video below as a short answer to the lack of test drives, apologies for the language barrier but you can tell the mans enthusiasm... We are working on getting other noteworthy journalists in the car but this is a good start a Swedish chap who is the Chris Harris equivalent out there.
http://youtu.be/L0KJD4RzKpA
There is an English translation below in the description box...
It is clear that there is some bias by EVO towards Pagani and to be honest that is to be expected, Harry who I know reasonably well has a Pagani and therefore clearly loves it. Everyone will write passionately with regards something they hold quite dear to them. However the Chris Harris article for Koenigsegg with EVO was a complete abomination. I did and possibly do still hold Chris in high esteem but I do feel if he himself looked back at that I would not think he would consider it one of his finest articles, I might be wrong here? Maybe one day EVO would like to have a second crack at the whip, Koenigsegg will in coming years get more publicity and with the product just getting better and better I do not fear the future success for Koenigsegg as for that matter do I for Pagani.
Tom
Christian has been reading this thread with great interest and asked me to post the video below as a short answer to the lack of test drives, apologies for the language barrier but you can tell the mans enthusiasm... We are working on getting other noteworthy journalists in the car but this is a good start a Swedish chap who is the Chris Harris equivalent out there.
http://youtu.be/L0KJD4RzKpA
There is an English translation below in the description box...
It is clear that there is some bias by EVO towards Pagani and to be honest that is to be expected, Harry who I know reasonably well has a Pagani and therefore clearly loves it. Everyone will write passionately with regards something they hold quite dear to them. However the Chris Harris article for Koenigsegg with EVO was a complete abomination. I did and possibly do still hold Chris in high esteem but I do feel if he himself looked back at that I would not think he would consider it one of his finest articles, I might be wrong here? Maybe one day EVO would like to have a second crack at the whip, Koenigsegg will in coming years get more publicity and with the product just getting better and better I do not fear the future success for Koenigsegg as for that matter do I for Pagani.
Tom
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