is the F type a supercar?
Discussion
nbot said:
so i agree, there is something about the R8 where people just don't regard it as a super car - i think the main issue actually stems from one thing... the Huracan, the R8 is and is designed to be a toned down subtle (every day daily) version of the Hurrican - therefore making it a sports car, Audi in fact say that the R8 is a 911 competitor - i think, because the R8 is so good, that a lot of people think it should be a super car when actually it was never even designed to be one, otherwise it would be competing against the Huracan and would therefore cannibalise the Audi groups own product. They don't want Huracan customers buying an R8 do they, and i think it has worked well, because the R8 is widely regarded as a sports car although it punches way above its weight.....
that's how i look at it anyway.
I dont think Audi will ever produce an all out super car, why? because they want potential customers who desire an all out super car to buy a Lambo.....
Huracan came out 7 years after the R8that's how i look at it anyway.
I dont think Audi will ever produce an all out super car, why? because they want potential customers who desire an all out super car to buy a Lambo.....
jakesmith said:
It's funny isn't it, there are all these criteria that they hit but there's always an elusive one that prevents them being seen as supercars, even though those factors have plenty of exceptions in other cases that people will happily ignore
R8 V10 not a supercar as it is from a mainstream manufacturer, who make normal shopping cars, the badge is too common
BUT.... LFA, Ford GT, XJ220, SL65 Black are despite being from mainstream manufacturers, Ford FFS? Mercedes even make vans!
R8 not a supercar as it shares parts with other Audis
Despite the Zonda doing the same thing borrowing from cars that weren't even as good as an Audi, or Lamboghini using the exact same part in their supercars
R8 not a supercar as too cheap, despite list price being comparable to new V8 Ferarri of its day, and plenty of McLaren's, Ferarris and Lamboghinis now being available comparable price or cheaper than many R8s. 355 and 360's were £30k not long ago, were they not supercars then? And back to being one now presumably?
R8 not a supercar as too common but Ferarri is, despite making over 15,000 458s. 458 was not a limited model AFAIK
R8 not a supercar despite it's Le Mans history and Quatro's heritage that is just as well known & successful as McLaren & Ferrari's F1 association and in fact the road car has more in common with the race car than some of its segment competitors
I think it's haters fueled by jealousy, or they bought something much more expensive that is comparable and don't like it perhaps
Its just marketing, Audi do not want the R8 to be anything more than a sports car - otherwise it cannibalises the Lambo products. What they should of done is never put the V10 engine in the R8 and these discussions would never arise. They made the R8 too good for the market they pitched it in basically. People's views are based on how they perceive the product, and perception of the product is down to the manufacturer and how they market the car and to who.R8 V10 not a supercar as it is from a mainstream manufacturer, who make normal shopping cars, the badge is too common
BUT.... LFA, Ford GT, XJ220, SL65 Black are despite being from mainstream manufacturers, Ford FFS? Mercedes even make vans!
R8 not a supercar as it shares parts with other Audis
Despite the Zonda doing the same thing borrowing from cars that weren't even as good as an Audi, or Lamboghini using the exact same part in their supercars
R8 not a supercar as too cheap, despite list price being comparable to new V8 Ferarri of its day, and plenty of McLaren's, Ferarris and Lamboghinis now being available comparable price or cheaper than many R8s. 355 and 360's were £30k not long ago, were they not supercars then? And back to being one now presumably?
R8 not a supercar as too common but Ferarri is, despite making over 15,000 458s. 458 was not a limited model AFAIK
R8 not a supercar despite it's Le Mans history and Quatro's heritage that is just as well known & successful as McLaren & Ferrari's F1 association and in fact the road car has more in common with the race car than some of its segment competitors
I think it's haters fueled by jealousy, or they bought something much more expensive that is comparable and don't like it perhaps
Shnozz said:
Angelis said:
I had an F Type come along to a Supercar lunch I organised a month or two a go and the owner was adamant it was a supercar when I told him it wasn't eligible to get in.
Had the same issue on other occasions with a woman in an SLK and a guy in an AMG coupe. The one like the saloon but with 2 doors.
The thing they all had in common was a bad attitude when told their cars were not "Super".
At the Cliveden lunch recently we had 40+ supercars parked on the drive and right in the middle of the display was an old Mercedes SL (brought by the wife of one of our members) which attracted more interest than many of the other cars. Why? Because most of us see Ferrari/Lambo/McLaren's all the time and we get a little bored with them. So it's nice to see something old school.
And if a 2.8i Capri had turned up.....
PS. R8's are not supercars either. Great sports cars, but not supercars.
Genuinely LOLHad the same issue on other occasions with a woman in an SLK and a guy in an AMG coupe. The one like the saloon but with 2 doors.
The thing they all had in common was a bad attitude when told their cars were not "Super".
At the Cliveden lunch recently we had 40+ supercars parked on the drive and right in the middle of the display was an old Mercedes SL (brought by the wife of one of our members) which attracted more interest than many of the other cars. Why? Because most of us see Ferrari/Lambo/McLaren's all the time and we get a little bored with them. So it's nice to see something old school.
And if a 2.8i Capri had turned up.....
PS. R8's are not supercars either. Great sports cars, but not supercars.
jakesmith said:
It's funny isn't it, there are all these criteria that they hit but there's always an elusive one that prevents them being seen as supercars, even though those factors have plenty of exceptions in other cases that people will happily ignore
R8 V10 not a supercar as it is from a mainstream manufacturer, who make normal shopping cars, the badge is too common
BUT.... LFA, Ford GT, XJ220, SL65 Black are despite being from mainstream manufacturers, Ford FFS? Mercedes even make vans!
R8 not a supercar as it shares parts with other Audis
Despite the Zonda doing the same thing borrowing from cars that weren't even as good as an Audi, or Lamboghini using the exact same part in their supercars
R8 not a supercar as too cheap, despite list price being comparable to new V8 Ferarri of its day, and plenty of McLaren's, Ferarris and Lamboghinis now being available comparable price or cheaper than many R8s. 355 and 360's were £30k not long ago, were they not supercars then? And back to being one now presumably?
R8 not a supercar as too common but Ferarri is, despite making over 15,000 458s. 458 was not a limited model AFAIK
R8 not a supercar despite it's Le Mans history and Quatro's heritage that is just as well known & successful as McLaren & Ferrari's F1 association and in fact the road car has more in common with the race car than some of its segment competitors
I think it's haters fueled by jealousy, or they bought something much more expensive that is comparable and don't like it perhaps
You and me are very much on the same page I think! R8 V10 not a supercar as it is from a mainstream manufacturer, who make normal shopping cars, the badge is too common
BUT.... LFA, Ford GT, XJ220, SL65 Black are despite being from mainstream manufacturers, Ford FFS? Mercedes even make vans!
R8 not a supercar as it shares parts with other Audis
Despite the Zonda doing the same thing borrowing from cars that weren't even as good as an Audi, or Lamboghini using the exact same part in their supercars
R8 not a supercar as too cheap, despite list price being comparable to new V8 Ferarri of its day, and plenty of McLaren's, Ferarris and Lamboghinis now being available comparable price or cheaper than many R8s. 355 and 360's were £30k not long ago, were they not supercars then? And back to being one now presumably?
R8 not a supercar as too common but Ferarri is, despite making over 15,000 458s. 458 was not a limited model AFAIK
R8 not a supercar despite it's Le Mans history and Quatro's heritage that is just as well known & successful as McLaren & Ferrari's F1 association and in fact the road car has more in common with the race car than some of its segment competitors
I think it's haters fueled by jealousy, or they bought something much more expensive that is comparable and don't like it perhaps
nbot said:
Its just marketing, Audi do not want the R8 to be anything more than a sports car
do you honestly think there have been discussions in some Audi/VAG/Lambo boardrooms about the R8 conforming to PH's arbitrary definition of a "supercar"? that's just nonsense... FFS even Ferrari refer to its own cars on its web site as "sports cars" To be honest, people, especially owners of R8s can think their car is a Supercar if they want. I really couldn’t give two hoots. This kind of cock waving argument really doesn’t bother me.
What I will say, is that the definition of what a Supercar is, becomes a very subjective argument these days. In years gone by, it was so much easier to categorise and differentiate cars and be able to define a Supercar with pretty unanimous agreement. Then the Hypercar came along, whatever that is and now you have many manufacturers of mass market drudgery producing halo cars that then stimulate the argument about whether these halo cars are Supercars.
People do seem to get very cross though, when the R8 gets mentioned. Owners get cross because they ache for it to be a Supercar and non owners get cross because they don’t want it to be. Why it should bother anyone is beyond me. If you like your car, if it makes you feel good, if it thrills and excites you, then it IS your Supercar, whatever it is.
What I will say, is that the definition of what a Supercar is, becomes a very subjective argument these days. In years gone by, it was so much easier to categorise and differentiate cars and be able to define a Supercar with pretty unanimous agreement. Then the Hypercar came along, whatever that is and now you have many manufacturers of mass market drudgery producing halo cars that then stimulate the argument about whether these halo cars are Supercars.
People do seem to get very cross though, when the R8 gets mentioned. Owners get cross because they ache for it to be a Supercar and non owners get cross because they don’t want it to be. Why it should bother anyone is beyond me. If you like your car, if it makes you feel good, if it thrills and excites you, then it IS your Supercar, whatever it is.
Superleg48 said:
Why it should bother anyone is beyond me.
Because you risk getting sent home with no tea whilst you watch the owners of ropey old fezzas munching away on their lunch. Although to be fair, there’s enough chips on shoulders going around here that no one will go hungry.
Pioneer said:
ghost83 said:
I don’t think it is tbh, I can’t remember when I last saw an R8, I saw a yellow lfa a couple of weeks ago, to me if the lfa is a supercar then so
Is the R8 they have the same credentials rly
You need to do the lottery this week, considering only 500 LFAs were made. One of the problems with the R8 is availability. A supercar should be unobtainable to the average joe. There's always 10 or so R8 V10's available on AT for £40-45k. What's an LFA going to cost? No idea, but prob. £400k+ if you can even find one for sale. Is the R8 they have the same credentials rly
All these cheap R8s tend to appeal to a certain demographic, which I've always thought does nothing for the model as a whole. I've met a few chaps on meets who have opted to spend £120k+ on R8s but in every case, they seemed to be enthusiasts who preferred a newer, reliable, comfortable performance car and didn't really care what it was labeled as. And usually had something tasty tucked away also. Unlike the lower end of the market who spend most of the time explaining why their car is a SC.
Some LFAs for sale here - meanwhile on AT 294 R8s are available in the UK alone, heck thats 293 more than a 2008 facelift Subaru Legacy, so yeah
https://www.jamesedition.com/cars/lexus/lfa
ericmcn said:
What a car this is in fairness, as someone pointed out cars in cars like the R8, depreciation is a telling factor. The LFA on the other hand will probably increase in value due to such a small pool of cars to chose from, globally.
Just when it couldn’t get any more ridiculous a new variable is introduced that is utterly at odds with the point you are making355s and 360s were all £30k+ not that long ago
The LFA has only gone up recently
12C’s are trading at 70k
599 Ferraris for 90k with a 6.0 v12
Murchelago being discussed for £110k
Some of these cars dropped 75% of their value and some of them aren’t going up yet! Which ones aren’t supercars? What makes you think an R8 won’t start appreciating? Like them or not they were a highly innovative design and available with proper NASP engines and manual gearboxes. The market tends to favour that sort of thing.
jakesmith said:
Just when it couldn’t get any more ridiculous a new variable is introduced that is utterly at odds with the point you are making
What makes you think an R8 won’t start appreciating? .
Far too many for sale, almost 300 in the UK, ffs. Around the world there are - thousands. So whats so special about it?What makes you think an R8 won’t start appreciating? .
One of my requirements i listed and I am sure anyone with some grain of sense would agree is sold in small volumes so an element of rarity is a requirement for any true supercar - The R8 does NOT tick the box here, the LFA sure does
ericmcn said:
Far too many for sale, almost 300 in the UK, ffs. Around the world there are - thousands. So whats so special about it?
One of my requirements i listed and I am sure anyone with some grain of sense would agree is sold in small volumes so an element of rarity is a requirement for any true supercar - The R8 does NOT tick the box here, the LFA sure does
And how does over 15,000 458s produced sit with that? Over 150 of those for sale in the U.K. now they’re hardly poles apart. Over 150 Hurracans for sale and they’ve only been in production 5 years. One of my requirements i listed and I am sure anyone with some grain of sense would agree is sold in small volumes so an element of rarity is a requirement for any true supercar - The R8 does NOT tick the box here, the LFA sure does
Do you really think 300 R8’s for sale on a car that has been in production for 12 years is a high number? In a country with 38 million vehicles registered?
The answer is that it is a package total that scores points from its constituents.
These have been discussed and are made up of:
the brand,
rarity,
performance,
engine spec,
engine sound,
the price,
level of exoticness.
etc etc....
So some cars may score low in the brand category, but make up for it in the rest, e.g. a Ford GT40. Some like the R8 score low in the brand, but are marginal in the rest of the categories - thus for some they make the supercar threshold and for others not. It's in the eye and the scoring of the beholder...
These have been discussed and are made up of:
the brand,
rarity,
performance,
engine spec,
engine sound,
the price,
level of exoticness.
etc etc....
So some cars may score low in the brand category, but make up for it in the rest, e.g. a Ford GT40. Some like the R8 score low in the brand, but are marginal in the rest of the categories - thus for some they make the supercar threshold and for others not. It's in the eye and the scoring of the beholder...
Larry5.2 said:
The answer is that it is a package total that scores points from its constituents.
These have been discussed and are made up of:
the brand,
rarity,
performance,
engine spec,
engine sound,
the price,
level of exoticness.
etc etc....
So some cars may score low in the brand category, but make up for it in the rest, e.g. a Ford GT40. Some like the R8 score low in the brand, but are marginal in the rest of the categories - thus for some they make the supercar threshold and for others not. It's in the eye and the scoring of the beholder...
I think you've forgotten an important factor there too - How they make you feel !These have been discussed and are made up of:
the brand,
rarity,
performance,
engine spec,
engine sound,
the price,
level of exoticness.
etc etc....
So some cars may score low in the brand category, but make up for it in the rest, e.g. a Ford GT40. Some like the R8 score low in the brand, but are marginal in the rest of the categories - thus for some they make the supercar threshold and for others not. It's in the eye and the scoring of the beholder...
jakesmith said:
Sorry missed this. Who the f
k would want to drive a Legacy though? Hardly up there with the R8 is it. I used to have a 1.0 1982 Micra, bet that’s pretty rare now, doesn’t mean anything!
You are missing the point, clearly you are not aware that in most cases it's the rare cars are the ones that hold most value - supply and demand and all that. And no, the Legacy Spec B is no Audi R8 but is more rare on the roads , so I can sit at the light's knowing I'll not see another one , unlike mass produced German goods. k would want to drive a Legacy though? Hardly up there with the R8 is it. I used to have a 1.0 1982 Micra, bet that’s pretty rare now, doesn’t mean anything! Lexus LFA all the way.
Larry5.2 said:
The answer is that it is a package total that scores points from its constituents.
These have been discussed and are made up of:
the brand,
rarity,
performance,
engine spec,
engine sound,
the price,
level of exoticness.
etc etc....
So some cars may score low in the brand category, but make up for it in the rest, e.g. a Ford GT40. Some like the R8 score low in the brand, but are marginal in the rest of the categories - thus for some they make the supercar threshold and for others not. It's in the eye and the scoring of the beholder...
this is exactly what i was alluding to in my posts - there is a total score that a car needs to meet in respect to certain criteria to enable it to be a super car and the R8 simply does not score high enough..... i think 95% of the petrol community is on the same page with this discussion. These have been discussed and are made up of:
the brand,
rarity,
performance,
engine spec,
engine sound,
the price,
level of exoticness.
etc etc....
So some cars may score low in the brand category, but make up for it in the rest, e.g. a Ford GT40. Some like the R8 score low in the brand, but are marginal in the rest of the categories - thus for some they make the supercar threshold and for others not. It's in the eye and the scoring of the beholder...
I feel sorry for the R8 - its a great car, had it have been designed more aggressively, manufactured in smaller quantities, had a more exotic badge, marketed differently and been priced higher, it would have been a super car...... oh wait... it has, its called the Huracan.....
Edited by nbot on Thursday 12th September 11:25
Edited by nbot on Thursday 12th September 12:52
jakesmith said:
A few questions please
National lottery win and LFA sightings are mutually exclusive events and seeing an LFA does not then have any impact on a highly randomised independent game of luck unless you know different?
What’s the certain demographic then, please expand. I live in leafy Surrey and bought one locally from a lovely chap in his 30’s who owned a massive country estate. What demographic would you say we are?
According to your logic a 355 and a 360, available a few years ago for £30k, wouldn’t be supercars? Or did they stop being supercar a when they were too affordable and then start being them again when the prices rose?
And where’s your evidence that the entire ‘lower end of the market’ spend ‘most of the time’ explaining why their R8 is a supercar? I own a v8 one and don’t think it is a supercar. I love to see how bitter people that spent significantly more often on a very similar and sometimes almost identical car get about it though it is hilarious to watch. That and the same gormless plumbs who presumably said that a Boxster was a ‘poor mans porsche’ back in the day whilst driving around in a Hyundai.
Your fascinating tale of the extremely niche owners you have (very conveniently) met who do have an R8, don’t think it’s a supercar, did want a performance car, and helpfully also have another undisputable supercar, well being kind that’s at best ‘highly anecdotal’. Presumably these ones are a different ‘demographic’.
1 question. Why do you care so passionately that your Audi needs to be defined as a supercar? I can only assume your life has such shallowness that these small things define who you are?National lottery win and LFA sightings are mutually exclusive events and seeing an LFA does not then have any impact on a highly randomised independent game of luck unless you know different?
What’s the certain demographic then, please expand. I live in leafy Surrey and bought one locally from a lovely chap in his 30’s who owned a massive country estate. What demographic would you say we are?
According to your logic a 355 and a 360, available a few years ago for £30k, wouldn’t be supercars? Or did they stop being supercar a when they were too affordable and then start being them again when the prices rose?
And where’s your evidence that the entire ‘lower end of the market’ spend ‘most of the time’ explaining why their R8 is a supercar? I own a v8 one and don’t think it is a supercar. I love to see how bitter people that spent significantly more often on a very similar and sometimes almost identical car get about it though it is hilarious to watch. That and the same gormless plumbs who presumably said that a Boxster was a ‘poor mans porsche’ back in the day whilst driving around in a Hyundai.
Your fascinating tale of the extremely niche owners you have (very conveniently) met who do have an R8, don’t think it’s a supercar, did want a performance car, and helpfully also have another undisputable supercar, well being kind that’s at best ‘highly anecdotal’. Presumably these ones are a different ‘demographic’.
Edited by jakesmith on Wednesday 11th September 09:38
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