Would I be mad to buy a 360CS at current prices?
Discussion
911Thrasher said:
ThreesixtyM said:
911Thrasher said:
and still relatively low production numbers
Just have a check on the European LHD market via autoscout24.eu and mobile.de, check the chassis numbers via challenge-stradale.com and you will soon realise that the non-accident cars irrespective of their mileage are not that quite common.
Drive one in the wet, in RACE, running on PZero Corsas and you'll understand why!! Just have a check on the European LHD market via autoscout24.eu and mobile.de, check the chassis numbers via challenge-stradale.com and you will soon realise that the non-accident cars irrespective of their mileage are not that quite common.
I'm not sure a brown interior suits the CS !!
and what I'm also saying is that because there were few built, quite a few properly used on tracks in their young age, as time goes the amount of original panel ones and with a good service history is scarce, that's all!!!!
suigeneris said:
Yes I want to drive it, but that just means buying a "high mileage" car (e.g. £200-220k at current prices rather than £70-80k a few years ago) rather than a low mileage car (e.g. £250k+ at current prices rather than £100-110k a few years ago). I'm really interested to hear where others think the market for these is going *overall*. Can these really sustain at current range of prices when they're not selling? Based on experience/history could these ever return to prior prices or take that much of a knock? Buying at current prices and losing £10k by driving something over a few years is one thing, but its a very different thing to potentially losing 30-40% if the market takes a turn down.
Can you afford to lose 100k on it ?If yes then buy and enjoy, they are fun cars and make a great noise and life is all about experiences.
If no, then IMO don't buy cars at this sort of price.
No one knows what's around the corner.
Even the most careful, astute speculation and calculation may prove completely wrong.
No one knows. End of story.
There are now 28 (twenty eight!!) Challenge Stradale's for sale on PistonHeads, a few of which have been dropped by £10,000 over the last few weeks, and nothing marked as sold (although there are some extra "active" ads showing sold cars which sold IIRC months ago and dealers using them as wanted ads). This is bonkers - there used to be consistently 8-10 at a time throughout 2013, 2014 and even 2015 as prices crept up. This market is such a bore though - clearly the speculator interest has cooled off and they're overpriced now as many of these have been for sale for months (or in some cases over a year) and nothing is selling.
I think Ferraris generally came off the boil. Porsches that have followed Ferrar andi have also settled down. There was a short flurry at the beginning of the year which has come and gone. But this is not a bubble to the extent that it was in the 90s, as I believe that the price of new supercars has moved pretty much in unison. IE the modern interpretation of the CS is the Speciale, which is still more expensive.
Ok so it's LHD but it looks great in yellow and seems like a reasonable price
http://www.tomhartley.com/used/2003/ferrari/challe...
http://www.tomhartley.com/used/2003/ferrari/challe...
No doubt that the whole classic car market has rebased and IMV there's little chance of it returning to prices from 4-5 years ago. The most fundamental shift, again IMV, is that the new car market has also rebased and cars either look 'cheap' or 'expensive' with regard to what else you could buy with that money.
Entry level supercars are now 200-250K from 100-120K several years ago, where you'd also find 40K 355s or 200K F40s. Special edition 911s are in a different league now, and even fast estates (AMG, RS6, Panamera sport tourismo) are stroking 100K or more. I know that there are many factors driving the market, but this seems to me to be one of the key ones- what else does that quantum of cash get you, and then does a classic look good value or expensive versus that benchmark.
Based on what else you could buy, the CS is 'worth' about 150K. I had one for 3 years, and while it's good, it isn't great. For example, it's contemporary, the 996 GT3RS, is a much better car and looks to me to be 'worth it'.
Entry level supercars are now 200-250K from 100-120K several years ago, where you'd also find 40K 355s or 200K F40s. Special edition 911s are in a different league now, and even fast estates (AMG, RS6, Panamera sport tourismo) are stroking 100K or more. I know that there are many factors driving the market, but this seems to me to be one of the key ones- what else does that quantum of cash get you, and then does a classic look good value or expensive versus that benchmark.
Based on what else you could buy, the CS is 'worth' about 150K. I had one for 3 years, and while it's good, it isn't great. For example, it's contemporary, the 996 GT3RS, is a much better car and looks to me to be 'worth it'.
456mgt said:
Based on what else you could buy, the CS is 'worth' about 150K. I had one for 3 years, and while it's good, it isn't great. For example, it's contemporary, the 996 GT3RS, is a much better car and looks to me to be 'worth it'.
Curious, is CS worth £150k 'on this basis' in RHD or LHD? Like for like difference , which is difficult with so few cars available, looks to be about £50k for RHD? and a little less for LHD, between Porsche and Ferrari.This car started at £219,990 last year, then reduced to £209,990 a few months ago, now has been reduced to £199,990 - https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
suigeneris said:
This car started at £219,990 last year, then reduced to £209,990 a few months ago, now has been reduced to £199,990 - https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Thats a pretty bad colour for hat car though and it has a leather interior which is a big no no IMO for these cars. I'm not in the market, or own a CS, but it would be interesting to know what red cars with a painted factory stripe are doing. Everyone I know that bought one chased red cars with a stripe with alcantera I think part of the problem is that most of the adverts aren't of sellers who actually wish or need to sell. Anyone who wants to sell wouldn't be waiting for months let alone over a year.
Taking the silver car as an example - it should really be up for 179 if the seller wants to sell.
One other thing. New car prices - it wasn't long ago that new supercars would depreciate massively. Lambos and Ferrari V12s were notorious for it. Those times may return and if that's all that's propping these prices...
Taking the silver car as an example - it should really be up for 179 if the seller wants to sell.
One other thing. New car prices - it wasn't long ago that new supercars would depreciate massively. Lambos and Ferrari V12s were notorious for it. Those times may return and if that's all that's propping these prices...
Edited by 15HN on Sunday 23 April 22:38
The CS is, IMHO, a special Ferrari. It was the first properly engineered 'streetable' Challenge Ferrari and was properly engineered as such. All the other versions before it, 348 and 355, were standard cars with bolt on bits. It was also made in reasonably small numbers. In essence, it was a pioneer of its era for that class of car from Ferrari. Scud and Speciale editions were produced in higher numbers and whilst faster, they didn't start an era. They are just followers. As a similar data point, consider the 288 GTO vs F40. The GTO was cheaper than an F40 for decades. But ultimately the collector market has recognised it for what it is - a pioneer car made in small numbers. Now the roles are reversed and a GTO is worth substantially more than the F40. My view is that the same will happen to the CS. It is collector grade.
baypond said:
Curious, is CS worth £150k 'on this basis' in RHD or LHD? Like for like difference , which is difficult with so few cars available, looks to be about £50k for RHD? and a little less for LHD, between Porsche and Ferrari.
Again, just my sense of what else you can (actually) get at these price points, I'd say 150 for a RHD car. subirg said:
The CS is, IMHO, a special Ferrari. It was the first properly engineered 'streetable' Challenge Ferrari and was properly engineered as such. ... It is collector grade.
Don't agree with any of that mate. It's a better set up 360 Modena and pretend hardcore, unlike an F40 or any RS for instance. Fine if you absolutely must have a Ferrari with a stripe. 456mgt said:
Don't agree with any of that mate. It's a better set up 360 Modena and pretend hardcore, unlike an F40 or any RS for instance. Fine if you absolutely must have a Ferrari with a stripe.
Have to disagree and your examples are contradictory to your point as well. The F40 is a completely different car to anything else. The RS is actually very similar in philosophy to the 360CS in that they are both based off more humble base cars. You wouldn't go far wrong by comparing the 360 CS and the 996GT3 RS. Both similar in philosophy. Both nothing like their base model equivalents and valued by the collector world for this reason. To call a CS a 'better set up 360 Modena' just shows a basic lack of understanding of the differences between the models. Perhaps a quick google search would help you understand this from a tech spec point of view. Or better still have a back to back ride in them. The differences are much more significant than you might think.
subirg said:
Have to disagree and your examples are contradictory to your point as well. The F40 is a completely different car to anything else. The RS is actually very similar in philosophy to the 360CS in that they are both based off more humble base cars. You wouldn't go far wrong by comparing the 360 CS and the 996GT3 RS. Both similar in philosophy. Both nothing like their base model equivalents and valued by the collector world for this reason.
To call a CS a 'better set up 360 Modena' just shows a basic lack of understanding of the differences between the models. Perhaps a quick google search would help you understand this from a tech spec point of view. Or better still have a back to back ride in them. The differences are much more significant than you might think.
I owned bothTo call a CS a 'better set up 360 Modena' just shows a basic lack of understanding of the differences between the models. Perhaps a quick google search would help you understand this from a tech spec point of view. Or better still have a back to back ride in them. The differences are much more significant than you might think.
subirg said:
The CS is, IMHO, a special Ferrari. It was the first properly engineered 'streetable' Challenge Ferrari and was properly engineered as such. All the other versions before it, 348 and 355, were standard cars with bolt on bits. It was also made in reasonably small numbers. In essence, it was a pioneer of its era for that class of car from Ferrari. Scud and Speciale editions were produced in higher numbers and whilst faster, they didn't start an era. They are just followers. As a similar data point, consider the 288 GTO vs F40. The GTO was cheaper than an F40 for decades. But ultimately the collector market has recognised it for what it is - a pioneer car made in small numbers. Now the roles are reversed and a GTO is worth substantially more than the F40. My view is that the same will happen to the CS. It is collector grade.
I think the collector market ultimately recognises the rarity of 'modern' Ferrari's in time above whether a Ferrari started (or finished) an era. In the case of a 288GTO vs F40 the bottom line is that the 288GTO is a far more rare car as there were roughly 5 times more F40's produced than 288 GTO's. The CS was made in less numbers than Scud and Speciale so I believe will be the most collectable of those cars in years to come, however they wont be worth 2-3 times that of a Scud or Speciale as is now the case with the 288GTO vs F40. Whilst the CS is the rarest the production numbers aren't drastically different i.e. 119RHD CS vs 140(ish)RHD Scud vs 280(ish)RHD Speciale.
Going back to the OP. There are many CS for sale right now at around 10% less than the peak asking prices we've seen over the last 18 months or so. IMHO I would say now is the time to find the dealer with the best appetite to sell and get a deal done. It will only take a handful of buyers to purchase 4/5 of the current crop or cars at main dealers and we'll see asking prices for new cars to market being nudged up again for the next 12 months. Barring a financial crisis or or complete market crash I can't see any reason for a significant price fall. Nobody can predict if or when a crash will happen, however you can predict that if the current crop of cars start selling again the asking prices will go up again. It might be better for the OP to start that trend than miss the possibility for a deal now.
Ravi355 said:
suigeneris said:
This car started at £219,990 last year, then reduced to £209,990 a few months ago, now has been reduced to £199,990 - https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Thats a pretty bad colour for hat car though and it has a leather interior which is a big no no IMO for these cars. I'm not in the market, or own a CS, but it would be interesting to know what red cars with a painted factory stripe are doing. Everyone I know that bought one chased red cars with a stripe with alcantera Actually, who cares, I love mine, and no one (bar financial disaster) is having it at £50k or £500k. I will go to my grave with it hopefully.
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