RE: Ferrari F430 F1
Discussion
godzilla said:
Just as a matter of interest, did you religously put it into neutral at every halt?
I've been told that the short clutch life cars were all driven a lot in stop start traffic and drivers weren't putting the car into neutral everytime the car wasn't moving.
I don`t agree that it`s "insane" it`s really quite sensible and a good discipline to maintain . I engage neutral in the 360 F1 same way as I do in the manual Porsche.
mikial said:I agree, and do this too. It's a pain in stop start traffic, but it's equally painful with a manual.
I don`t agree that it`s "insane" it`s really quite sensible and a good discipline to maintain . I engage neutral in the 360 F1 same way as I do in the manual Porsche.
And I do think that after >7 years of on-market development, the Ferrari F1 system has come of age. It really is good now, to the point where I'll tick that F1 box when the time comes (ie when Maranellos have exhausted their supply of minor celebs, super-rich old farts and footballers). It all adds to the drama y'see; pull for the next gear with the engine howling, 'crack' from the exhaust, 'bang' as the next gear goes in, repeat. This is pretty intoxicating I can tell you, and they certainly haven't sanitised the experience. It also means that you keeps all your extremities on the controls at all times- hands on the wheel, steering and changing gear, left foot covering the brake, right foot on the throttle.
Contrast this with an afterthought manual configuration and it's a no-brainer. That manual design looks right on a 250GTO from 1962, but it's out of place in a 21st century car. IMO, there is no longer a right or wrong gearbox choice, merely a preference.
ads_green said:
Just as a matter of interest, did you religously put it into neutral at every halt?
I've been told that the short clutch life cars were all driven a lot in stop start traffic and drivers weren't putting the car into neutral everytime the car wasn't moving.
That's just insane. Pay 6 figures for a car with a advanced gearbox that can't work out that it needs to completely disengage the clutch if speed = 0 and revs = idle.
Just to put it into context - a £5k smart car will completely disengage the clutch when you stop - it does this on it's own. Why can't the ferrari do the same?
_dobbo_ said:Really don't know why anyone thinks this is any sort of a big deal. I suppose it's a manual versus auto argument. I'm quite happy to put the thing in neutral myself, and prefer to make my own decisions anyway; it's more important that *I'm aware* of what the system does, than what it does. So if I come to a halt in first gear, then take off again straight away, I know the car's still in first and don't have to pull for a gear.
Just to put it into context - a £5k smart car will completely disengage the clutch when you stop - it does this on it's own. Why can't the ferrari do the same?
How do you select neutral? Pull both paddles at the same time? It would be nice to be able to zoom up to XX(X) speed and then just coast rather than keep everything engaged while slowing down. Is that why so many trannys are breaking?
I always liked the F430. It was the F360 that bother me both in looks and underpowered engine compared to the competition (it would probably blow my socks off). Still a bit of a porker thou, yes but so are the other cars in this class.
I always liked the F430. It was the F360 that bother me both in looks and underpowered engine compared to the competition (it would probably blow my socks off). Still a bit of a porker thou, yes but so are the other cars in this class.
Gt2man-2 said:
Until they manage to make a F1 clutch last as long as a manual and cost the same to replace, I can't see myself ever considering one.
A recent trip to Graypaul had a salesman trying to talk me into one, until he mentioned that the average life for a F1 clutch is 3000 miles and you should budget £2000 to replace it (66p a mile, just for clutch !!)
Now, I know some people would say "Well, if you can afford a Ferrari, you can afford to run it.. " but that's disproportionately expensive.
The F430 they had in their showoom wasn't bad.. but I dunno, the lines just don't flow properly.. Seems more like a case of function before form.. and if it were just function we were going for, you could buy better cheaper in other marques.
The rear end is contrived, and the front end doesn't look right (headlights too small, black intakes too dominating)
>> Edited by Gt2man-2 on Sunday 10th April 12:00
My clutch on my F1 360 has been changed once in 16,500 miles !! So this 'clutch has to be changed every 3000,4000' is utter nonsense, unless you drive it like a to$$er everytime all the time.
Still cant stand the back and think it sits too high, but after driving an F1 430 Spider, its an awsome machine and i'd deff have one. Best car i have driven and the F1 box is superb, have one in a flash !
456mgt said:
Just to put it into context - a £5k smart car will completely disengage the clutch when you stop - it does this on it's own. Why can't the ferrari do the same?
Really don't know why anyone thinks this is any sort of a big deal.
It's just because of tales of clutches being fried in 3000 miles, and a reason being given that owners aren't selecting neutral.
Surely the car could do this for you, and save potentially tens of thousands of pounds over the life of the car?
My point about the smart was that it can be done, and easily (notwithstanding the widely known shortcomings of the smart gearchange).
456mgt said:
I don`t agree that it`s "insane" it`s really quite sensible and a good discipline to maintain . I engage neutral in the 360 F1 same way as I do in the manual Porsche.
I agree, and do this too. It's a pain in stop start traffic, but it's equally painful with a manual.
And I do think that after >7 years of on-market development, the Ferrari F1 system has come of age. It really is good now, to the point where I'll tick that F1 box when the time comes (ie when Maranellos have exhausted their supply of minor celebs, super-rich old farts and footballers). It all adds to the drama y'see; pull for the next gear with the engine howling, 'crack' from the exhaust, 'bang' as the next gear goes in, repeat. This is pretty intoxicating I can tell you, and they certainly haven't sanitised the experience. It also means that you keeps all your extremities on the controls at all times- hands on the wheel, steering and changing gear, left foot covering the brake, right foot on the throttle.
Contrast this with an afterthought manual configuration and it's a no-brainer. That manual design looks right on a 250GTO from 1962, but it's out of place in a 21st century car. IMO, there is no longer a right or wrong gearbox choice, merely a preference.
well of course its all about preference ive had both man and F1. I disagree that its 'come of age' compare any of these marrelli systems with audis DSG and they are worlds apart.
The one thing the f car in F1 guise lacks is consistency, they dont operate well in stop start and take no account of temp diff at the flywheel which makes a difference as well.
We must remember that all the F1 system is is a modified manual box with a 12v pump running to build oil pressure and an actuator that acts on the gearbox- all destned to go wrong im afraid, as I discovered stuck in 2nd gear and unable to move.
Now if your fortunate enough to buy one new and sell before the warranty expires thats great but if you dont here are some costs.
a 12 v F1 pump £7500 plus fitting, and actuator £2900 plus fitting- all engineered to last just beyond the warranty of course.In fact many of the actuators leak even when new!
octane said:
mikial said:
I don`t agree that it`s "insane" it`s really quite sensible and a good discipline to maintain . I engage neutral in the 360 F1 same way as I do in the manual Porsche.
I agree, and do this too. It's a pain in stop start traffic, but it's equally painful with a manual.
And I do think that after >7 years of on-market development, the Ferrari F1 system has come of age. It really is good now, to the point where I'll tick that F1 box when the time comes (ie when Maranellos have exhausted their supply of minor celebs, super-rich old farts and footballers). It all adds to the drama y'see; pull for the next gear with the engine howling, 'crack' from the exhaust, 'bang' as the next gear goes in, repeat. This is pretty intoxicating I can tell you, and they certainly haven't sanitised the experience. It also means that you keeps all your extremities on the controls at all times- hands on the wheel, steering and changing gear, left foot covering the brake, right foot on the throttle.
Contrast this with an afterthought manual configuration and it's a no-brainer. That manual design looks right on a 250GTO from 1962, but it's out of place in a 21st century car. IMO, there is no longer a right or wrong gearbox choice, merely a preference.
well of course its all about preference ive had both man and F1. I disagree that its 'come of age' compare any of these marrelli systems with audis DSG and they are worlds apart.
The one thing the f car in F1 guise lacks is consistency, they dont operate well in stop start and take no account of temp diff at the flywheel which makes a difference as well.
We must remember that all the F1 system is is a modified manual box with a 12v pump running to build oil pressure and an actuator that acts on the gearbox- all destned to go wrong im afraid, as I discovered stuck in 2nd gear and unable to move.
Now if your fortunate enough to buy one new and sell before the warranty expires thats great but if you dont here are some costs.
a 12 v F1 pump £7500 plus fitting, and actuator £2900 plus fitting- all engineered to last just beyond the warranty of course.In fact many of the actuators leak even when new!
No account of mileage is refered to in this opinion I note, as an example then a three year old car with 10 thousand miles will suffer the same fate as outlined as a 60 thousand miles three year old example...?
mikial said:
456mgt said:
mikial said:
I don`t agree that it`s "insane" it`s really quite sensible and a good discipline to maintain . I engage neutral in the 360 F1 same way as I do in the manual Porsche.
I agree, and do this too. It's a pain in stop start traffic, but it's equally painful with a manual.
And I do think that after >7 years of on-market development, the Ferrari F1 system has come of age. It really is good now, to the point where I'll tick that F1 box when the time comes (ie when Maranellos have exhausted their supply of minor celebs, super-rich old farts and footballers). It all adds to the drama y'see; pull for the next gear with the engine howling, 'crack' from the exhaust, 'bang' as the next gear goes in, repeat. This is pretty intoxicating I can tell you, and they certainly haven't sanitised the experience. It also means that you keeps all your extremities on the controls at all times- hands on the wheel, steering and changing gear, left foot covering the brake, right foot on the throttle.
Contrast this with an afterthought manual configuration and it's a no-brainer. That manual design looks right on a 250GTO from 1962, but it's out of place in a 21st century car. IMO, there is no longer a right or wrong gearbox choice, merely a preference.
well of course its all about preference ive had both man and F1. I disagree that its 'come of age' compare any of these marrelli systems with audis DSG and they are worlds apart.
The one thing the f car in F1 guise lacks is consistency, they dont operate well in stop start and take no account of temp diff at the flywheel which makes a difference as well.
We must remember that all the F1 system is is a modified manual box with a 12v pump running to build oil pressure and an actuator that acts on the gearbox- all destned to go wrong im afraid, as I discovered stuck in 2nd gear and unable to move.
Now if your fortunate enough to buy one new and sell before the warranty expires thats great but if you dont here are some costs.
a 12 v F1 pump £7500 plus fitting, and actuator £2900 plus fitting- all engineered to last just beyond the warranty of course.In fact many of the actuators leak even when new!
No account of mileage is refered to in this opinion I note, as an example then a three year old car with 10 thousand miles will suffer the same fate as outlined as a 60 thousand miles three year old example...?
Wellas for clutch life, providing you pop it into neutral before you come to a stop hence stopping the box from changing down through all the gears and no racing starts they last about 15k maybe more.
As for the longevity of the F1 system, you may be lucky and have no problems but more likely you will and it can happen at 6K or 30K i doubt 50K!!!
ads_green said:
Just as a matter of interest, did you religously put it into neutral at every halt?
I've been told that the short clutch life cars were all driven a lot in stop start traffic and drivers weren't putting the car into neutral everytime the car wasn't moving.
That's just insane. Pay 6 figures for a car with a advanced gearbox that can't work out that it needs to completely disengage the clutch if speed = 0 and revs = idle.
Duh - so your waiting a junction ready to pull out and then you find out your in neutral, there are times you need it ready in first. If you leave it in 1 for too long it automatically drops to N (10 or 15 secs)
octane said:That's just it though. No drama, just like an auto. Sorry, but that's boring. The whole point of cars like this is to get your heart beating faster, IMO anyway.
well of course its all about preference ive had both man and F1. I disagree that its 'come of age' compare any of these marrelli systems with audis DSG and they are worlds apart
octane said:And your evidence for this is?
As for the longevity of the F1 system, you may be lucky and have no problems but more likely you will and it can happen at 6K or 30K i doubt 50K!!!
456mgt said:
octane said:
well of course its all about preference ive had both man and F1. I disagree that its 'come of age' compare any of these marrelli systems with audis DSG and they are worlds apart
That's just it though. No drama, just like an auto. Sorry, but that's boring. The whole point of cars like this is to get your heart beating faster, IMO anyway.
octane said:
As for the longevity of the F1 system, you may be lucky and have no problems but more likely you will and it can happen at 6K or 30K i doubt 50K!!!
And your evidence for this is?
My evidence for this is the 2 F1 cars i have owned! together with the ownership epereinces of 2 associates. Just look at the parts costs and also call marraello and find out how many F1 pumps have been sold at 7-8K its quite a few!!! Also the pump and actuator are hardly what one would call quality pices of engineering. Look under most F1 cars and the actuators leak even when new- this is considered acceptable- at least until the warranty expires!
and whilst I appreciate the F1 system ,becuase of the HUGE costs involved post warranty I would NOT buy another.
Whlist the dsg might be described as boring, it is a system that works consistently and operates in all conditions properly; That i am afrid is something the F1 system still cannot do.
>> Edited by octane on Friday 5th August 22:53
456mgt said:
My evidence for this is the 2 F1 cars i have owned! together with the ownership epereinces of 2 associates.
what model years were these cars?
a 98 and 99 355F1 a 2000 360F1 and a 2001 360F1
Ok the 360 system is more sophisticated as it has fly by wire and auto blip but the principles are the same; all the improvements seem to come from software and ecu modification
I know that the early 360 F1 changed from one manufacturer to another for many F1 components but im not sure about this as the 355s were my cars.
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