Do you/Can you, really enjoy DRIVING your supercar anymore?
Discussion
bentley01 said:
The Surveyor said:
The Aston V8 Vantage is still a great car but it's a GT, not a sports car, and certainly not a supercar alternative. It's thrills are dished up like a well oiled massage rather than a punch in the chops.
As you say, the same with the V6 F Type, a great sports car, but not quite the 'turned up to 11' madness which the V8 R dishes up. It's that real extra lunacy which makes a car more thrilling.
The V12 Vantage is quite raw and demands respect. The great thing though is that it is still exciting at slow speeds. It is fast but not so quick that you can’t keep your foot down and did I mention the sound that it makes. If you think the V8 Vantage is not exciting enough I would suggest you try one with 12 cylinders and preferably a manual gearboxAs you say, the same with the V6 F Type, a great sports car, but not quite the 'turned up to 11' madness which the V8 R dishes up. It's that real extra lunacy which makes a car more thrilling.
carspath said:
....... , but I am asking a very specific question here : Does being limited to driving a car to a fraction of its potential , rob you of enough of the joy of driving to make you question its DRIVING worth ——- this applies as much to a Veyron as it does to a Yaris , except that the limits kick in much earlier in the Veyron , so the question becomes relevant earlier on in the case of the Bugatti cf the Toyota .
.......
You appear to be asking a very specific question in the hope that people agree with your opinion rather than asking for our views, and If you think that people only buy supercars on the basis of driving worth then you are delusional........
The Surveyor said:
A good mate has a V12s and you're partially right in that the V12 transforms the car. His V12s is stunning and a proper old-school dragster. Don't get drawn into the sales hype about manual gearboxes through, the manual on the V8 is a dog and when combined with the dreadful clutch spoils the car. He tried both stick and paddle and reported that the manual in the V12 is no better.
I heard this also about the original clutches on the Vantage. I understand there are aftermarket twin plate clutches which go some way to solve this issue.The question is irrelevant simply because the vast majority don’t actually drive their cars anyway!
The vast majority of super cars on the secondary market have pathetic, minimal miles and points to the fact that by definition most people don’t buy a supercar to drive - at least in a meaningful way.
The truth is most people can’t actually afford to drive the car they bought due to fear of depreciation. It is simply an aspirational purchase, a status symbol or in the case of limited production Ferrari’s an investment. Most wont admit it but the secondary market says otherwise.
And therefore logic says that supercars on the secondary market with high mileage were obviously enjoyed and most certainly in the manner in which they were designed for. And still are.
The vast majority of super cars on the secondary market have pathetic, minimal miles and points to the fact that by definition most people don’t buy a supercar to drive - at least in a meaningful way.
The truth is most people can’t actually afford to drive the car they bought due to fear of depreciation. It is simply an aspirational purchase, a status symbol or in the case of limited production Ferrari’s an investment. Most wont admit it but the secondary market says otherwise.
And therefore logic says that supercars on the secondary market with high mileage were obviously enjoyed and most certainly in the manner in which they were designed for. And still are.
WDISMYL said:
The question is irrelevant simply because the vast majority don’t actually drive their cars anyway!
The vast majority of super cars on the secondary market have pathetic, minimal miles and points to the fact that by definition most people don’t buy a supercar to drive - at least in a meaningful way.
The truth is most people can’t actually afford to drive the car they bought due to fear of depreciation. It is simply an aspirational purchase, a status symbol or in the case of limited production Ferrari’s an investment. Most wont admit it but the secondary market says otherwise.
And therefore logic says that supercars on the secondary market with high mileage were obviously enjoyed and most certainly in the manner in which they were designed for. And still are.
I partially agree, although I did 5,000 miles in my 570s last year which is about right for a 'toy' IMHO. The vast majority of super cars on the secondary market have pathetic, minimal miles and points to the fact that by definition most people don’t buy a supercar to drive - at least in a meaningful way.
The truth is most people can’t actually afford to drive the car they bought due to fear of depreciation. It is simply an aspirational purchase, a status symbol or in the case of limited production Ferrari’s an investment. Most wont admit it but the secondary market says otherwise.
And therefore logic says that supercars on the secondary market with high mileage were obviously enjoyed and most certainly in the manner in which they were designed for. And still are.
The issue of cars being bought and never used is nothing new, as you say the markets are flooded with low mileage (or clocked...!) supercars from the 80's and 90's, so it has always been a popular collection (investment) hobby as much as a hobby about driving joy.
WDISMYL said:
And therefore logic says that supercars on the secondary market with high mileage were obviously enjoyed and most certainly in the manner in which they were designed for. And still are.
Pioneer said:
WDISMYL said:
And therefore logic says that supercars on the secondary market with high mileage were obviously enjoyed and most certainly in the manner in which they were designed for. And still are.
I was making the more obvious point that since most secondary cars on the market have such low miles then they weren’t bought for driving and therefore the question was irrelevant.
I’ve just taken delivery of my new sports car - and in less than a week have hit nearly 1000 miles. I’m not even close to understanding it’s potential nor can give a proper assessment of its capabilities. Sorry if I offend but as I said most supercar owners haven’t a clue what they’ve bought and never get to enjoy it because they are too busy worrying about depreciation. So the question is irrelevant to the vast majority of owners.
Edit: People can buy supercars for whatever reason they like - I’m not judging. Just IMO unless you are running a fleet of several cars ,3k a year on a single car is not someone who bought their car to thoroughly enjoy from driving it (if it was all on a track I take it back!).
Edited by WDISMYL on Thursday 28th June 14:39
There are so many dimensions to this and, at the end of the day, it’s entirely personal.
Even when I can no longer drive, or petrol is no longer for sale,
I will still go and look at my Countach because of what it is and for what it represents.
You don’t judge a painting or its owner on how often he looks at it?
Even when I can no longer drive, or petrol is no longer for sale,
I will still go and look at my Countach because of what it is and for what it represents.
You don’t judge a painting or its owner on how often he looks at it?
Totally agree. As I said I’m not judging. The lure of ownership irrespective of actually driving them is clearly very strong given by the large majority of low mileage cars on the secondary market.
We are all different. I couldn’t buy a supercar and not drive it. It’s pointless in my opinion. I actually feel sorry for all those over leveraged, stressed out owners , worrying about every mile or the next maintenance bill. I drove my Diablo as a daily driver. I even left it at the station for my commute. I bought it to drive it. I sold it when I was in position that I couldn’t drive it anymore. I hope the next owner uses it.
Driving it at the limit was never a prerequisite for enjoying it. I loved every mile most of which were under the speed limit. It was an event every time.
So again I think the question is irrelevant to most supercar owners because they mostly don’t actually drive them. And to most piston head readers (who probably do put miles on their cars) they are too busy enjoying their cars to bother to respond!
We are all different. I couldn’t buy a supercar and not drive it. It’s pointless in my opinion. I actually feel sorry for all those over leveraged, stressed out owners , worrying about every mile or the next maintenance bill. I drove my Diablo as a daily driver. I even left it at the station for my commute. I bought it to drive it. I sold it when I was in position that I couldn’t drive it anymore. I hope the next owner uses it.
Driving it at the limit was never a prerequisite for enjoying it. I loved every mile most of which were under the speed limit. It was an event every time.
So again I think the question is irrelevant to most supercar owners because they mostly don’t actually drive them. And to most piston head readers (who probably do put miles on their cars) they are too busy enjoying their cars to bother to respond!
Willy Wombat..... you,ve hit the nail on the head , and my wife would totally agree with you , when you say that I,m too precious with my cars... the Boxster S is sitting under a covered tent while a 458 and gt3 are slumming it in the general car park enjoying the sun !!
Genuinely glad to hear that you are having a good time , and that the F is behaving itself .
Some lovely roads in your area.
If you can do a really early morning run back to Blighty on the Route Napolean , please grab the opportunity ........ it is in the top 5 runs that I will remember forever........you will adore it , I promise.
Absolutely agree (again) with many other commentators who say that there are so many ways in which to enjoy any car ...... I was just focusing on one specific aspect
With regards to mileage and depreciation , it isn’t a feature , if you buy to keep for the very long term ( admittedly with the caveat that you never know what fate throws at you tomorrow ). Interestingly, in 2006 , when I was looking for a 355 , no car seemed to have over 30,000 miles , and when I was selling in 2014 , the mileage’s seemed no higher , and now in 2018, again the odometers seem to have remained static . ( Mine left with 54,000 on the clock .....sadly missed except for the overlight , although very precise , steering )
Genuinely glad to hear that you are having a good time , and that the F is behaving itself .
Some lovely roads in your area.
If you can do a really early morning run back to Blighty on the Route Napolean , please grab the opportunity ........ it is in the top 5 runs that I will remember forever........you will adore it , I promise.
Absolutely agree (again) with many other commentators who say that there are so many ways in which to enjoy any car ...... I was just focusing on one specific aspect
With regards to mileage and depreciation , it isn’t a feature , if you buy to keep for the very long term ( admittedly with the caveat that you never know what fate throws at you tomorrow ). Interestingly, in 2006 , when I was looking for a 355 , no car seemed to have over 30,000 miles , and when I was selling in 2014 , the mileage’s seemed no higher , and now in 2018, again the odometers seem to have remained static . ( Mine left with 54,000 on the clock .....sadly missed except for the overlight , although very precise , steering )
Ferruccio said:
Good stuff.
I commute on my Ducati Panigalle. It must be one of the highest mileage ones in the country. Much better than any car in traffic!
Curious to hear your perspective - I'm a biker too and one never sees the topic 'are bikes getting too fast' in the BB forum, and bikes have been monumentally fast at least since the 80s. Even in countries where one cannot legally filter, I think fast bikes can still be used to their potential, and I see no reason why cars cannot be the same. Yes cars are wider etc., but I went on a p-ride in my cousin's 360 recently, in North London, and it definitely felt like he was using a huge percentage of the car's performance. I commute on my Ducati Panigalle. It must be one of the highest mileage ones in the country. Much better than any car in traffic!
We were on a B-road and he was going what felt like > 1 lepton. Anyway, I certainly think that with your A and B roads, one is far likelier to be able to enjoy a supercar on the road in the UK/Ireland, than almost anywhere in N America (parts of California excepted of course). The roads are of course busier than they were 30 years ago but thats the case everywhere in the world, and anecdotally, in that 360 drive, we didn't encounter any traffic (this was around 9 pm on a Weds night in December 2017).
WDISMYL said:
But that was my point. A tiny fraction of supercar buyers actually do put high/normal mileage on their supercars. and these drivers clearly enjoy them through a combination of track use and spirited driving.
I'm in the tiny fraction then. 8 to 9k a year is about normal for me and I have never tracked one. I'm firmly in the camp that thinks there's not much point buying these things if you don't use them.BlackPrince said:
Ferruccio said:
Good stuff.
I commute on my Ducati Panigalle. It must be one of the highest mileage ones in the country. Much better than any car in traffic!
Curious to hear your perspective - I'm a biker too and one never sees the topic 'are bikes getting too fast' in the BB forum, and bikes have been monumentally fast at least since the 80s. Even in countries where one cannot legally filter, I think fast bikes can still be used to their potential, and I see no reason why cars cannot be the same. Yes cars are wider etc., but I went on a p-ride in my cousin's 360 recently, in North London, and it definitely felt like he was using a huge percentage of the car's performance. I commute on my Ducati Panigalle. It must be one of the highest mileage ones in the country. Much better than any car in traffic!
We were on a B-road and he was going what felt like > 1 lepton. Anyway, I certainly think that with your A and B roads, one is far likelier to be able to enjoy a supercar on the road in the UK/Ireland, than almost anywhere in N America (parts of California excepted of course). The roads are of course busier than they were 30 years ago but thats the case everywhere in the world, and anecdotally, in that 360 drive, we didn't encounter any traffic (this was around 9 pm on a Weds night in December 2017).
WDISMYL said:
People can buy supercars for whatever reason they like - I’m not judging. Just IMO unless you are running a fleet of several cars ,3k a year on a single car is not someone who bought their car to thoroughly enjoy from driving it (if it was all on a track I take it back!).
Being in central London my 'daily driver' is the tube! I put around 100 miles on my car most weekends in summer, not so much in winter. I find I add around 2500 miles per year, 15% of which this year was on track. I bet I'm not unusual. There's little reason to use a supercar in town so 2500 miles is a typical mileage for a city-dwelling enthusiast owner.Edited by WDISMYL on Thursday 28th June 14:39
perhaps not a supercar in some people's mind, but i actually really enjoy driving my GT3 Touring at the national speed limit. Lots of feedback, plenty of power on tap, great build quality all give me a feeling of being in something special. But at the same time i have no interest in Ferrari or McLaren as they become too much for the roads imo. Besides fact I am not so keen on attention
stuthe
said:
said: Supercar gearing is too long, for sure, grip levels too high, ground clearance too low for traffic calmed roads.... , but the poor vis, more of that please - that's 1/2 the challenge and I won't hear against it!! 
I think mid 90s was a pretty special time for road/car balance. Cars were not as accomplished, but still had comforts like fuel Injection and decent ac, and the roads were less stazi-d, a great era in my driving history.
Im actually giving some thought to a 90s supercar at the moment, not a modern one, for all the reasons you describe. Although what I'm. Looking at is far far too fast for UK roads, but nothing like a 720s or similar modern machinery. In terms of my 90s prey, Three main things that count against are ground clearance, gearing, and no cruise control! For me, all the modern Specs 40 zones etc... And motorway driving are really risky to drive in a powerful car with no cruise. And more and more of these roads exist now. It's just not relaxing without CC, you have to unduly concentrate on not accidentally creeping up. I've lost count of the times Ive looked down, realised I crept up by 10mph, and with no idea what my average was, have to creep along at 30 to get average back down. Infinitely more relaxing covering ground if you set the CC and forget about it, it's a big issue for me lack of CC on modern roads, makes driving too fatiguing without it. But that's just me. Gearing I can sort with lower range diff
996 gt3 with exetc suspension + all the solid suspension bits and short gearing. No tc, enough power, as much feel as you could ever ask and some more, tremendous ride, you can drive wot on potholes and the short gearing gives you an exaggerated sense of speed. Or just get a 106 rally/205 gti or a low of the range caterham. Plenty of cars available that are very fun without the need of stupid speeds. A challenge stradale or a 355 would be great posh options too, with good fun exhaustsI think mid 90s was a pretty special time for road/car balance. Cars were not as accomplished, but still had comforts like fuel Injection and decent ac, and the roads were less stazi-d, a great era in my driving history.
Im actually giving some thought to a 90s supercar at the moment, not a modern one, for all the reasons you describe. Although what I'm. Looking at is far far too fast for UK roads, but nothing like a 720s or similar modern machinery. In terms of my 90s prey, Three main things that count against are ground clearance, gearing, and no cruise control! For me, all the modern Specs 40 zones etc... And motorway driving are really risky to drive in a powerful car with no cruise. And more and more of these roads exist now. It's just not relaxing without CC, you have to unduly concentrate on not accidentally creeping up. I've lost count of the times Ive looked down, realised I crept up by 10mph, and with no idea what my average was, have to creep along at 30 to get average back down. Infinitely more relaxing covering ground if you set the CC and forget about it, it's a big issue for me lack of CC on modern roads, makes driving too fatiguing without it. But that's just me. Gearing I can sort with lower range diff
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