I know this will start a war but
Discussion
carspath said:
Its the quickness of direction change (lets call it agility ) that is most engaging and most pleasurable --- and this agility is directly related to a lack of mass.
A light-weight car has this built-in advantage , and a heavier car cannot compensate for this through having more torque , power or wider tyres.
I entirely agree that I am using only a tiny proportion of the X BOW's capability , and would further agree that the limiting factor here is not the roads or traffic , but my lack of talent.
I adore supercars , so would certainly not decry them , but would simply point out that we can no longer enjoy DRIVING them in the manner that they were primarily designed for .
while you say supercars aren't enjoyable as they aren't being driven in the way they were designed for, exactly the same applies in many respects if not more so for something like the xbow as I said. A light-weight car has this built-in advantage , and a heavier car cannot compensate for this through having more torque , power or wider tyres.
I entirely agree that I am using only a tiny proportion of the X BOW's capability , and would further agree that the limiting factor here is not the roads or traffic , but my lack of talent.
I adore supercars , so would certainly not decry them , but would simply point out that we can no longer enjoy DRIVING them in the manner that they were primarily designed for .
Yes a lightweight car is definitely more enjoyable purely due to it's weight but the massive cornering ability of the xbow means that on the road (where everyone is driving way under what any decent sports car can do anyway) means you are even further from what the car can do. Unless you are tracking the car (like a supercar perhaps
), you aren't really driving it in the manner it was designed for either on the road for sure. carspath said:
Andyvdg--- yes I agree.
I left for Wilton at 6am , and had the loveliest of drives --clear roads , and great dry weather , and quite a few well-sighted roundabouts ----what's not to like
I need to be more optimistic !!!
What did you come in, was it the X-Bow or something else? X-Bows are nice!I left for Wilton at 6am , and had the loveliest of drives --clear roads , and great dry weather , and quite a few well-sighted roundabouts ----what's not to like
I need to be more optimistic !!!
Wow, what a diverse thread this is considering where it started on the original question posted.
Speed limits have been around since the car-dawn of time (Motor car speed limit emancipation).
We the Human species (well some of us) have searched, sought, craved and chased this condition, be it on Land, sea or air.....Technology, ingenuity, curiosity and the brave (or stupid) pushing of the envelope has guided, answered and shadowed us since the invention of the wheel. In some cases it was the simple Necessity of speed that has been the mother of our inventions.
Good or bad the car is with us, our vanity, our search for more power, our search for more power efficiently, our human electric car dream (with its own issues and problems) is here and to try to curb the human spirit in pushing forward, to learn and to want to be different is folly and futile!!!
They said in the past that horses would no longer be valid or have a place now with the motorcar's arrival.....Rubbish!
They say Cars, Supercars, Hyper-cars,.........(fill in the blank) no longer belong.......Crappissimo!! Of course they do, they have a place, speed limits or not!
Basically any car built that your Grandpa/Grandma drives, can break the speed limit! So shall we just stop building those too? Hell Electric cars can obliterate the National Speed limits too, so why build those, lets get rid of those too shall we?! No point in having a 240mph electric Supercar hey? Bull!!
Can you enjoy your car now, compared to say the last several decades? It all depends on you, what stirs you or not. We are all different, we all seek and find pleasures in different ways (keep it clean boys and girls) with our cars...SUPER, HYPER or NOT any of those cars!!!! I think of the journey, the destination and the as yet un-discovered scenery and countries, that the car has enabled us to have and traverse.
So wether you like driving at ten tenths, sideways, in something flash or not, electric, petrol or diesel, LPG, you name it, Speed limits, Governance, the Modern roads, talent (lacking or not) nor social attitudes, should dictate your enjoyment unless you let it! Pleasure can be had in many forms, in any car, powerful or not, in driving them how they were intended or not. If you honestly feel your heavy Supercars can no longer be driven in the way that was intended i.e. like in the past, then why keep them? Or do you find that you get a different pleasure out of them now? We all justify differently for having these wonderful, powerful cars....n'est ce pas?
Some say there is no point to fast cars, speed and it is just a waste of time and energy in todays world.....What a load of clap-trap....Think of people like Richard Noble and other land speed record makers, breakers and holders and ask them Why? Thrust SSC Mach.1 super sonic on land!!! Now some two decades later Blood-hound going for 1000mph! Think of all that is being/has been learnt, the technology applied and then trickled down to the consumer in one form or another. We have a lot to be grateful for in these human endeavours and achievements.
Oh and one final point the Speed limit in France has only been temporarily lowered on secondary roads since 1st July 2018 and for the next two years. This is to test wether there is a reduction in road deaths.......The Limit changed from 90Kph down to 80Kph. Autoroutes (Motorways) remain un-changed as do roads in urban and built up areas.
What a lovely bunch of interesting Pistonheaders we are!!! The question could be.........Speed, Enjoyment, Fulfilment of the sport/super/hyper----car's potential......Is this just a state of mind? Or do I now apologise to everyone???
Speed limits have been around since the car-dawn of time (Motor car speed limit emancipation).
We the Human species (well some of us) have searched, sought, craved and chased this condition, be it on Land, sea or air.....Technology, ingenuity, curiosity and the brave (or stupid) pushing of the envelope has guided, answered and shadowed us since the invention of the wheel. In some cases it was the simple Necessity of speed that has been the mother of our inventions.
Good or bad the car is with us, our vanity, our search for more power, our search for more power efficiently, our human electric car dream (with its own issues and problems) is here and to try to curb the human spirit in pushing forward, to learn and to want to be different is folly and futile!!!
They said in the past that horses would no longer be valid or have a place now with the motorcar's arrival.....Rubbish!
They say Cars, Supercars, Hyper-cars,.........(fill in the blank) no longer belong.......Crappissimo!! Of course they do, they have a place, speed limits or not!
Basically any car built that your Grandpa/Grandma drives, can break the speed limit! So shall we just stop building those too? Hell Electric cars can obliterate the National Speed limits too, so why build those, lets get rid of those too shall we?! No point in having a 240mph electric Supercar hey? Bull!!
Can you enjoy your car now, compared to say the last several decades? It all depends on you, what stirs you or not. We are all different, we all seek and find pleasures in different ways (keep it clean boys and girls) with our cars...SUPER, HYPER or NOT any of those cars!!!! I think of the journey, the destination and the as yet un-discovered scenery and countries, that the car has enabled us to have and traverse.
So wether you like driving at ten tenths, sideways, in something flash or not, electric, petrol or diesel, LPG, you name it, Speed limits, Governance, the Modern roads, talent (lacking or not) nor social attitudes, should dictate your enjoyment unless you let it! Pleasure can be had in many forms, in any car, powerful or not, in driving them how they were intended or not. If you honestly feel your heavy Supercars can no longer be driven in the way that was intended i.e. like in the past, then why keep them? Or do you find that you get a different pleasure out of them now? We all justify differently for having these wonderful, powerful cars....n'est ce pas?
Some say there is no point to fast cars, speed and it is just a waste of time and energy in todays world.....What a load of clap-trap....Think of people like Richard Noble and other land speed record makers, breakers and holders and ask them Why? Thrust SSC Mach.1 super sonic on land!!! Now some two decades later Blood-hound going for 1000mph! Think of all that is being/has been learnt, the technology applied and then trickled down to the consumer in one form or another. We have a lot to be grateful for in these human endeavours and achievements.
Oh and one final point the Speed limit in France has only been temporarily lowered on secondary roads since 1st July 2018 and for the next two years. This is to test wether there is a reduction in road deaths.......The Limit changed from 90Kph down to 80Kph. Autoroutes (Motorways) remain un-changed as do roads in urban and built up areas.
What a lovely bunch of interesting Pistonheaders we are!!! The question could be.........Speed, Enjoyment, Fulfilment of the sport/super/hyper----car's potential......Is this just a state of mind? Or do I now apologise to everyone???
Edited by MaserCoupe on Sunday 19th August 19:54
Edited by MaserCoupe on Sunday 19th August 19:55
Edited by MaserCoupe on Sunday 19th August 20:14
quite agree, top speed and time through gears is all great fun but actually wheel turning and engagement is much less. I was actually thinking of buying a gen 2 elise or even an early mx5 (again) so as to rev the car out and enjoy a good manual gearbox.
carspath said:
Isaldiri--- I see the point you are making , and agree with you to some extent.
The difference are that :
- the X bow is relatively short-geared , so you can stir through the gears more often.
- being in an exposed cockpit means that your sight-lines are better , and the degree of exposure in this particular car just enhances every sensation
-regarding Cornering , both you and I know just where our local roundabouts are , and where the slip roads are .
I call it my ''round about car ''.
Its the quickness of direction change (lets call it agility ) that is most engaging and most pleasurable --- and this agility is directly related to a lack of mass.
A light-weight car has this built-in advantage , and a heavier car cannot compensate for this through having more torque , power or wider tyres.
I entirely agree that I am using only a tiny proportion of the X BOW's capability , and would further agree that the limiting factor here is not the roads or traffic , but my lack of talent.
I adore supercars , so would certainly not decry them , but would simply point out that we can no longer enjoy DRIVING them in the manner that they were primarily designed for .
The difference are that :
- the X bow is relatively short-geared , so you can stir through the gears more often.
- being in an exposed cockpit means that your sight-lines are better , and the degree of exposure in this particular car just enhances every sensation
-regarding Cornering , both you and I know just where our local roundabouts are , and where the slip roads are .
I call it my ''round about car ''.
Its the quickness of direction change (lets call it agility ) that is most engaging and most pleasurable --- and this agility is directly related to a lack of mass.
A light-weight car has this built-in advantage , and a heavier car cannot compensate for this through having more torque , power or wider tyres.
I entirely agree that I am using only a tiny proportion of the X BOW's capability , and would further agree that the limiting factor here is not the roads or traffic , but my lack of talent.
I adore supercars , so would certainly not decry them , but would simply point out that we can no longer enjoy DRIVING them in the manner that they were primarily designed for .
PH,s news article on the Bugatti Divo and cornering , suggests that Winkelmann and co are thinking along the same lines !!
Isaldiri , I appreciate what you say are the similarities between the x bow and super cars , but would again emphasise my comments re , agility secondary to a lack of mass , sightlines and the very exposed cockpit . Agree with you re width of the x bow and the drawback of it being turbo charged.
Andyvdg ...came in my 145,000 mile series 1 MX5 , and parked in the overflow,overflow car park , in the exact spot that I parked the x bow in , at the last supercar event in ? April
Glad you like the x bow
F1 ten ..... a third series 1 MX5 ( I really love them , and have another 20,000 mile car which is the Beaulieu reference example , but which is running on ditchfinders , and doesn’t handle half as well.....needs decent tyres and a geo ) and an Elise series 2 , are on my wish list too
Anyway greetings from Grossglockner , where I had the drive of my ice yesterday at 515 am .
Rained the previous night , and I was distraught at this , but it turned out that the wet road was the best thing ever , as it just reduced the threshold , so was able to have great fun with an increased sense of anticipation and care , in the more slippery conditions.
Stayed within the Grossglockner , and so didn’t have to go through the 630 am barriers , and had 1.15 hours of the road all to my self
Truly magic.... my best ever despite , or more accurately . Because of the wet road
Then walked almost the entire Grossglockner road in the rain ........really recommend this .
So the problem is not the supercar s , but today,s roads and traffic conditions that deny one the opportunity to enjoy these cars . ( width is a problem on Alpine roads though .....most of us cannot get the authorities to close them just for us , unlike what Top Gear can negotiate ).
An alarm clock is your car,s best friend
Today , we are snowed in , and I have a meeting with KISKA first thing tomorrow morning !!
Isaldiri , I appreciate what you say are the similarities between the x bow and super cars , but would again emphasise my comments re , agility secondary to a lack of mass , sightlines and the very exposed cockpit . Agree with you re width of the x bow and the drawback of it being turbo charged.
Andyvdg ...came in my 145,000 mile series 1 MX5 , and parked in the overflow,overflow car park , in the exact spot that I parked the x bow in , at the last supercar event in ? April
Glad you like the x bow
F1 ten ..... a third series 1 MX5 ( I really love them , and have another 20,000 mile car which is the Beaulieu reference example , but which is running on ditchfinders , and doesn’t handle half as well.....needs decent tyres and a geo ) and an Elise series 2 , are on my wish list too
Anyway greetings from Grossglockner , where I had the drive of my ice yesterday at 515 am .
Rained the previous night , and I was distraught at this , but it turned out that the wet road was the best thing ever , as it just reduced the threshold , so was able to have great fun with an increased sense of anticipation and care , in the more slippery conditions.
Stayed within the Grossglockner , and so didn’t have to go through the 630 am barriers , and had 1.15 hours of the road all to my self
Truly magic.... my best ever despite , or more accurately . Because of the wet road
Then walked almost the entire Grossglockner road in the rain ........really recommend this .
So the problem is not the supercar s , but today,s roads and traffic conditions that deny one the opportunity to enjoy these cars . ( width is a problem on Alpine roads though .....most of us cannot get the authorities to close them just for us , unlike what Top Gear can negotiate ).
An alarm clock is your car,s best friend
Today , we are snowed in , and I have a meeting with KISKA first thing tomorrow morning !!
Drove Großglockner in the Scuderia and the RS Clio this year - had more fun in the Clio
I think the Scud will be used more and more as summer daily (I drove a lot of Autobahn) and track day car, while for an early morning drive up my favorite mountain roads I will use the Clio - just more fun as it is just fast enough but slow enough to be able to actually fully accelerate through a couple of gears
I think the Scud will be used more and more as summer daily (I drove a lot of Autobahn) and track day car, while for an early morning drive up my favorite mountain roads I will use the Clio - just more fun as it is just fast enough but slow enough to be able to actually fully accelerate through a couple of gears
Cayman black...... genuinely one of my best drives ever , and I think that the wet roads actually made it for me .... you just had to be so much more aware , and the small degree of oversteer on hairpin exits happened at low and controllable speeds.
Not a single other vehicle until 635 am when I encountered the first delivery truck , at which stage I went straight back to the hotel.
MDL111....precisely my feelings too , but I am clearly less talented than you , as I can get all the fun I need / can just about cope with a 26 year old 114 bhp MX5.
I need to try an RS.
I am glad that someone feels the same way that I do .
My car together with about 10 others were covered with about 2 feet of snow , and we all chipped in and dug each other out , and then waited for the snow plough to go past , and quickly , or rather very slowly , followed in its path.
Increadible , that my first trip to the Grossglockner allowed me a top down drive one morning , and a snow shovelling opportunity the next .
Not a single other vehicle until 635 am when I encountered the first delivery truck , at which stage I went straight back to the hotel.
MDL111....precisely my feelings too , but I am clearly less talented than you , as I can get all the fun I need / can just about cope with a 26 year old 114 bhp MX5.
I need to try an RS.
I am glad that someone feels the same way that I do .
My car together with about 10 others were covered with about 2 feet of snow , and we all chipped in and dug each other out , and then waited for the snow plough to go past , and quickly , or rather very slowly , followed in its path.
Increadible , that my first trip to the Grossglockner allowed me a top down drive one morning , and a snow shovelling opportunity the next .
Marathon Guy said:
Personal Opinion is McLaren 720 is best road car ever!
At Romans and the sales guy said "Ferraris are sports cars and Mclarens are supercars", but he was trying to sell me a 720 ! and I am a McLaren owner.
And we all know how hard they are to sell!At Romans and the sales guy said "Ferraris are sports cars and Mclarens are supercars", but he was trying to sell me a 720 ! and I am a McLaren owner.
Just seen the op,s topic car is STILL for sale.
Edited by cayman-black on Tuesday 18th September 16:19
cayman-black said:
Marathon Guy said:
Personal Opinion is McLaren 720 is best road car ever!
At Romans and the sales guy said "Ferraris are sports cars and Mclarens are supercars", but he was trying to sell me a 720 ! and I am a McLaren owner.
And we all know how hard they are to sell!At Romans and the sales guy said "Ferraris are sports cars and Mclarens are supercars", but he was trying to sell me a 720 ! and I am a McLaren owner.
Just seen the op,s topic car is STILL for sale.
Edited by cayman-black on Tuesday 18th September 16:19
Just a quick look through the PH Classified and you'll see there are huge number of cars on the market at the moment. I know it's only a rough guide but I can't remember seeing so many Lamborghinis being advertised (105 Aventador, 103 Huracan, and 98 Gallardo), or Ferrari (96 360s and 121 Calafornias). The PH classified is flooded with McLaren 570s (95 of them), along with 329 Caymans and a staggering 2,099 911 Porsches in their various versions.
The market for these luxury indulgences is flat at best, it's a good time if you're buying, it doesn't matter if you're not selling, but its certainly not a good time if you have anything nice that you have to sell quickly IMHO.
The Surveyor said:
I'm not sure much is selling at the moment to be fair. Classified section is awash with sports and supercars which are all proving hard to sell and have been around for ages.
Just a quick look through the PH Classified and you'll see there are huge number of cars on the market at the moment. I know it's only a rough guide but I can't remember seeing so many Lamborghinis being advertised (105 Aventador, 103 Huracan, and 98 Gallardo), or Ferrari (96 360s and 121 Calafornias). The PH classified is flooded with McLaren 570s (95 of them), along with 329 Caymans and a staggering 2,099 911 Porsches in their various versions.
The market for these luxury indulgences is flat at best, it's a good time if you're buying, it doesn't matter if you're not selling, but its certainly not a good time if you have anything nice that you have to sell quickly IMHO.
this, absolutely worth haggling hard on price if you're buyingJust a quick look through the PH Classified and you'll see there are huge number of cars on the market at the moment. I know it's only a rough guide but I can't remember seeing so many Lamborghinis being advertised (105 Aventador, 103 Huracan, and 98 Gallardo), or Ferrari (96 360s and 121 Calafornias). The PH classified is flooded with McLaren 570s (95 of them), along with 329 Caymans and a staggering 2,099 911 Porsches in their various versions.
The market for these luxury indulgences is flat at best, it's a good time if you're buying, it doesn't matter if you're not selling, but its certainly not a good time if you have anything nice that you have to sell quickly IMHO.
f1ten said:
A lesser powered sports car with good suspension and brakes that can be revved out and enjoyed around legal speeds is much more fun for most people most of the time. As wonderful as supercars are they are probably dinosaurs. However I will keep buying them while they make them for that magic 5% of the time when you can enjoy them to their full potential. The other 95% of the time I will be in my Mk1 MX5.....
The Surveyor said:
cayman-black said:
Marathon Guy said:
Personal Opinion is McLaren 720 is best road car ever!
At Romans and the sales guy said "Ferraris are sports cars and Mclarens are supercars", but he was trying to sell me a 720 ! and I am a McLaren owner.
And we all know how hard they are to sell!At Romans and the sales guy said "Ferraris are sports cars and Mclarens are supercars", but he was trying to sell me a 720 ! and I am a McLaren owner.
Just seen the op,s topic car is STILL for sale.
Edited by cayman-black on Tuesday 18th September 16:19
Just a quick look through the PH Classified and you'll see there are huge number of cars on the market at the moment. I know it's only a rough guide but I can't remember seeing so many Lamborghinis being advertised (105 Aventador, 103 Huracan, and 98 Gallardo), or Ferrari (96 360s and 121 Calafornias). The PH classified is flooded with McLaren 570s (95 of them), along with 329 Caymans and a staggering 2,099 911 Porsches in their various versions.
The market for these luxury indulgences is flat at best, it's a good time if you're buying, it doesn't matter if you're not selling, but its certainly not a good time if you have anything nice that you have to sell quickly IMHO.
Bispal said:
………. As wonderful as supercars are they are probably dinosaurs. However I will keep buying them while they make them for that magic 5% of the time when you can enjoy them to their full potential. The other 95% of the time I will be in my Mk1 MX5.....
Agreed, but when you look at the future alternatives, anything with an IC motor which has the ability to scare the poop out of you has to be better than the electric alternatives. They take all the negative things about modern supercars up to another level.WCZ said:
autocar did a 0-100-0 video (but took it down???) of the Senna vs the 720S
Senna was actually slower 0-60, caught up by 100 and outbraked it, iirc did a 9.4 in total - must be close to the production record?
Watched that and was very impressed with the overall time by the Senna, but not by it's launch compared to the 720s. The Senna would have been under 9 seconds if it had got away as quickly as the 720s. Senna was actually slower 0-60, caught up by 100 and outbraked it, iirc did a 9.4 in total - must be close to the production record?
Both monstrously quick.
The Surveyor said:
Watched that and was very impressed with the overall time by the Senna, but not by it's launch compared to the 720s. The Senna would have been under 9 seconds if it had got away as quickly as the 720s.
Both monstrously quick.
indeed, the perfect car for cash 4 cash scammers looking to brake check someone into running into the back of them Both monstrously quick.
Bispal , I couldn't express my own sentiments more eloquently than you have done above .
That's why I adore my mk 1 MX5
And its not just the SE UK either .
I've just returned from my 2nd European trip .
The first was to Bologna to the Lambo family museum , and then south to Umbria to Ferruccio's old vineyard , where I was luck enough to meet his old book-keeper. This trip was over 3 1/2 weeks , and 5000 km , and was mainly to collect material for a Countach book.
The second trip , again was for 3 1/2 weeks , and involved over 7000 km , driving through Germany , then Austria , Hungary , Slovenia and Italy
. The reason for this trip was to gather material for a KTM X-BOW book : I spent time at the KTM factory in Graz, at the KISKA design studio outside Salzburg , at the Pannioring circuit in Hungary for the X-BOW Battle , and then most importantly , and most interestingly at Dallara , where I got to meet the legendary Giampaolo Dallara , who is now 81 years old and who still does a 12 hour day , 6 days a week. I also got taken out in the new Dallara Stradale ---wow !
Had an epic drive for 1 1/2 hours on the Grossglockner , but by 6.35 am it was time to go back to the hotel because of the traffic
You will catch the most wonderful drive by chance from time to time , but spirited European driving , using a supercar to 40% of its ability for 40% of the time is now really a myth
You could do it 20 years ago , but not today .
And I don't buy the idea of DRIVING a supercar to go to Tesco
You do have much more fun DRIVING in a MX5 for 95% of the time , simply because you have to push the car harder to get anywhere near any given limit ---beit grip , cornering, top speed ,acceleration or braking.
And because you are pushing more , you as a driver are more involved.....and surely that's where the fun of DRIVING comes in
The sad truth is that I've almost stopped DRIVING my supercars ---I get more joy just looking at them !!
Hidden , unmarked cameras have really taken the fun out of driving ------------being alert , even hyper-alert , is now not good enough
That's why I adore my mk 1 MX5
And its not just the SE UK either .
I've just returned from my 2nd European trip .
The first was to Bologna to the Lambo family museum , and then south to Umbria to Ferruccio's old vineyard , where I was luck enough to meet his old book-keeper. This trip was over 3 1/2 weeks , and 5000 km , and was mainly to collect material for a Countach book.
The second trip , again was for 3 1/2 weeks , and involved over 7000 km , driving through Germany , then Austria , Hungary , Slovenia and Italy
. The reason for this trip was to gather material for a KTM X-BOW book : I spent time at the KTM factory in Graz, at the KISKA design studio outside Salzburg , at the Pannioring circuit in Hungary for the X-BOW Battle , and then most importantly , and most interestingly at Dallara , where I got to meet the legendary Giampaolo Dallara , who is now 81 years old and who still does a 12 hour day , 6 days a week. I also got taken out in the new Dallara Stradale ---wow !
Had an epic drive for 1 1/2 hours on the Grossglockner , but by 6.35 am it was time to go back to the hotel because of the traffic
You will catch the most wonderful drive by chance from time to time , but spirited European driving , using a supercar to 40% of its ability for 40% of the time is now really a myth
You could do it 20 years ago , but not today .
And I don't buy the idea of DRIVING a supercar to go to Tesco
You do have much more fun DRIVING in a MX5 for 95% of the time , simply because you have to push the car harder to get anywhere near any given limit ---beit grip , cornering, top speed ,acceleration or braking.
And because you are pushing more , you as a driver are more involved.....and surely that's where the fun of DRIVING comes in
The sad truth is that I've almost stopped DRIVING my supercars ---I get more joy just looking at them !!
Hidden , unmarked cameras have really taken the fun out of driving ------------being alert , even hyper-alert , is now not good enough
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