I know this will start a war but
Discussion
I think a large percentage of the Porsche GT buyers buy those (therefore so much demand/good residuals) because it is a nice car to drive without losing much money - this will eventually change again
Numbers limited editions have always done reasonably well / not lost huge amounts of money, they usually still traded below list though (stuff like an Enzo was the exception) - imo we will get back to that soon (rates increases, worse economic environment etc) and then the cars will be bought by enthusiasts, who don’t look at the depreciation again / but as a result (or not that many people who look at cars that way), they will depreciate again
Can’t happen soon enough for me
Numbers limited editions have always done reasonably well / not lost huge amounts of money, they usually still traded below list though (stuff like an Enzo was the exception) - imo we will get back to that soon (rates increases, worse economic environment etc) and then the cars will be bought by enthusiasts, who don’t look at the depreciation again / but as a result (or not that many people who look at cars that way), they will depreciate again
Can’t happen soon enough for me
MDL111 said:
500 is a big number though given hardly anybody wants a track car spider 
Not many go on the track and the beauty of McLarens carbon tub is there is no compromise anyway. Regular production cars sell 80/20 spider/coupe for that reasonCant beat open top motoring IMHO, it really adds to the whole experience and rarely do you sit in a spider and think I wish I was in a coupe on this beautiful sunny day, but you do the other way round
Doesn't seen to hurt 430 16M or 458 Speciale Aperta and how much are they
Rambo I disagree the McLaren product is not superior but yes it does have better performance.
I'm not an engineer but I have been reliably informed there are some items on the McLaren which 1-do not have the serviceability as the ferrari. 2- items not tested as long in development as ferrari
I'm a big fan of Mac by the way but let's not forget ferrari have hundreds of mill which have gone in to R and D over the last 15 yrs so their engineering solution is better tested.
I'm not an engineer but I have been reliably informed there are some items on the McLaren which 1-do not have the serviceability as the ferrari. 2- items not tested as long in development as ferrari
I'm a big fan of Mac by the way but let's not forget ferrari have hundreds of mill which have gone in to R and D over the last 15 yrs so their engineering solution is better tested.
RamboLambo said:
Absolutely spot on.
You pays your money and take your choice.
Personally I preferred 650S overall over 458 but if buying from new you have to realise the brand and network is not as strong as Ferrari even if the product is superior.
McLaren need to increase dealers and aftersales and support residuals not reduce prices which WON'T happen.
Still a young brand and dealer network but their cars are sublime.
Just go in eyes open to ownership cost and you won't be disappointed
You pays your money and take your choice.
Personally I preferred 650S overall over 458 but if buying from new you have to realise the brand and network is not as strong as Ferrari even if the product is superior.
McLaren need to increase dealers and aftersales and support residuals not reduce prices which WON'T happen.
Still a young brand and dealer network but their cars are sublime.
Just go in eyes open to ownership cost and you won't be disappointed
ferdi p said:
TP321 said:
Surely there can not be anyone left reading this forum, who does not realise that buying a new McLaren at list price, will mean that after 3 years it will be worth roughly 50% of its list price. Even the LT models are now nursing £50k plus losses.
McLaren needs volume - they don't care even if they have to discounts cars in order to achieve this volume. They are not interested in residuals. If they were they would be trying to protect them. a 2012 12C has a trade value of £70k - a car that had a list price with extras of £200k! How can this be acceptable? 570S Spiders are selling with £30k discounts. Totally unacceptable.
Lack of dealers, independents are non existent, and warranties are £5k. The cars are very complex, parts are very expensive. Its just a recipe for disaster. Even the F1 team is going backwards and is now languishing at the back of the grid.
Where is the good news??
Here...McLaren needs volume - they don't care even if they have to discounts cars in order to achieve this volume. They are not interested in residuals. If they were they would be trying to protect them. a 2012 12C has a trade value of £70k - a car that had a list price with extras of £200k! How can this be acceptable? 570S Spiders are selling with £30k discounts. Totally unacceptable.
Lack of dealers, independents are non existent, and warranties are £5k. The cars are very complex, parts are very expensive. Its just a recipe for disaster. Even the F1 team is going backwards and is now languishing at the back of the grid.
Where is the good news??
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/06/29/mc...
Sadly, when customers lose so much money on their cars, they stop buying/stop buying at the full list. This needs to be addressed ASAP, or that good news for the shareholders you mention will end very suddenly. The fad price of McLaren is history and the discounts are being driven by the company.
This is not good for McLaren and although all suffer from it, McLaren is out there on its own in terms of scale. I don't believe the services costs, parts cost, service availability and general cost of ownership is as mass market as they feel it is.
RamboLambo said:
Not many go on the track and the beauty of McLarens carbon tub is there is no compromise anyway. Regular production cars sell 80/20 spider/coupe for that reason
Cant beat open top motoring IMHO, it really adds to the whole experience and rarely do you sit in a spider and think I wish I was in a coupe on this beautiful sunny day, but you do the other way round
Doesn't seen to hurt 430 16M or 458 Speciale Aperta and how much are they
If I was buying a roadcar I'd go for the spider. Given the crackdown in France it's actually more entertaining to drive something like a KTM xbow through the twisties since you don't have to do mach 3 to have a grin, so really its just something that gives you a sense of theatre doing tCant beat open top motoring IMHO, it really adds to the whole experience and rarely do you sit in a spider and think I wish I was in a coupe on this beautiful sunny day, but you do the other way round
Doesn't seen to hurt 430 16M or 458 Speciale Aperta and how much are they
t laps round the Monaco circuit and I'd probably say the soundtrack of the huracan delivers that in spades at even legal speeds. For track I wouldn't even bother with a roadcar and all the daft instagram premium pricing limited models - buy one of these at 220 grand and enjoy the thing at full throttle where it belongs.
nyxster said:
For track I wouldn't even bother with a roadcar and all the daft instagram premium pricing limited models - buy one of these at 220 grand and enjoy the thing at full throttle where it belongs.
220 grand to buy the car and probably the same again to run it on track for a couple of seasons.....Nyxster---precisely why I bought a 2nd hand X-BOW R last year ( Supposedly 1 of 3 in the UK )
I've almost completely stopped driving '' Supercars '' , because they are no longer drivable in Southern England.
By drivable , I mean being able to regularly using the available rev range in more than just
1st gear.
I've heard people tell me that they enjoy taking their ''Supercars '' to Tesco , and I am sure that they do , but there is really no enjoyment in that for me .
(But then , equally , I don't get any enjoyment in ''Driving in convoy ''
Why would you want to drive behind someone else in any car ? )
This is so very different to 20 years ago , when you could drive a 5167cc Bizzarrini-engined wedge from Somerset to the French side of the Pyrenees in one hit without worrying too much about being arrested.
Well that's now in the past , and there is no point harking back to a period that's never going to return , so one has to adapt by choosing to drive a car which is better adapted to 2018's road and traffic conditions.
I chose the X BOW R because its fast enough , exposed , manual (although I totally respect the PDK gearbox , and think that the E-gear single clutch box has its attractions) , stunning to my eyes , and has the sort of factory support where you can still readily speak to the CEO , who still remembers a nobody like me ,( a bit like Sant'Agata was in the last century ).
Most importantly though , it majors on CORNERING , which is where I think today's driving fun is to be found . (Do wish it had a normally aspirated engine though --- my one regret )
So unless you adapt , you are going to miss out on DRIVING----to my mind that is the unpalatable truth.
So I'll keep what I've got because I love them , but I don't think that these lovable dinosaurs are of any use , and I cant see myself ever buying another '' Supercar '' . 800 bhp in a road car in Southern England today ---- But why ? , unless you are being totally suckered by the marketing types
And this myth about driving in Europe-- I've driven more miles on the Continent these last few years than in the UK------France has just lowered its speed limits , and UK cars are a special attraction , German autobahns are essentially overcrowded roadworks , Romanian and Hungarian roads will test your suspension to smithereens , Italy is great , really great if you can find the hidden treasures , ditto Portugal and Spain --but watch out for unmarked police cars .
So traditional , large , heavy , supercars with high top speeds will always have a ready supply of customers , but sadly those same customers will not have the opportunity to use their cars for what these supercars were actually designed to excel in .
In 2018 , cornering is where the driving fun is to be found IMHO
And finally , what's all this stuff about : ''just drive it , and don't talk about the residuals /money/depreciation , its a car ''
I've never considered buying a car on credit , but I would totally respect any person who seriously and carefully weighs up every aspect of ownership . Surely careful consideration involves getting as much information from as many sources as possible , and as fora such as PH represent a potential treasure-trove of information , such money- related topics are a very legitimate topic of discussion .
Better sign off now , as I'm off to the Wilton Wake up in 5 1/2 hours .
I've almost completely stopped driving '' Supercars '' , because they are no longer drivable in Southern England.
By drivable , I mean being able to regularly using the available rev range in more than just
1st gear.
I've heard people tell me that they enjoy taking their ''Supercars '' to Tesco , and I am sure that they do , but there is really no enjoyment in that for me .
(But then , equally , I don't get any enjoyment in ''Driving in convoy ''
Why would you want to drive behind someone else in any car ? )
This is so very different to 20 years ago , when you could drive a 5167cc Bizzarrini-engined wedge from Somerset to the French side of the Pyrenees in one hit without worrying too much about being arrested.
Well that's now in the past , and there is no point harking back to a period that's never going to return , so one has to adapt by choosing to drive a car which is better adapted to 2018's road and traffic conditions.
I chose the X BOW R because its fast enough , exposed , manual (although I totally respect the PDK gearbox , and think that the E-gear single clutch box has its attractions) , stunning to my eyes , and has the sort of factory support where you can still readily speak to the CEO , who still remembers a nobody like me ,( a bit like Sant'Agata was in the last century ).
Most importantly though , it majors on CORNERING , which is where I think today's driving fun is to be found . (Do wish it had a normally aspirated engine though --- my one regret )
So unless you adapt , you are going to miss out on DRIVING----to my mind that is the unpalatable truth.
So I'll keep what I've got because I love them , but I don't think that these lovable dinosaurs are of any use , and I cant see myself ever buying another '' Supercar '' . 800 bhp in a road car in Southern England today ---- But why ? , unless you are being totally suckered by the marketing types
And this myth about driving in Europe-- I've driven more miles on the Continent these last few years than in the UK------France has just lowered its speed limits , and UK cars are a special attraction , German autobahns are essentially overcrowded roadworks , Romanian and Hungarian roads will test your suspension to smithereens , Italy is great , really great if you can find the hidden treasures , ditto Portugal and Spain --but watch out for unmarked police cars .
So traditional , large , heavy , supercars with high top speeds will always have a ready supply of customers , but sadly those same customers will not have the opportunity to use their cars for what these supercars were actually designed to excel in .
In 2018 , cornering is where the driving fun is to be found IMHO
And finally , what's all this stuff about : ''just drive it , and don't talk about the residuals /money/depreciation , its a car ''
I've never considered buying a car on credit , but I would totally respect any person who seriously and carefully weighs up every aspect of ownership . Surely careful consideration involves getting as much information from as many sources as possible , and as fora such as PH represent a potential treasure-trove of information , such money- related topics are a very legitimate topic of discussion .
Better sign off now , as I'm off to the Wilton Wake up in 5 1/2 hours .
Nyxster---precisely why I bought a 2nd hand X-BOW R last year ( Supposedly 1 of 3 in the UK )
I've almost completely stopped driving '' Supercars '' , because they are no longer drivable in Southern England.
By drivable , I mean being able to regularly using the available rev range in more than just
1st gear.
I've heard people tell me that they enjoy taking their ''Supercars '' to Tesco , and I am sure that they do , but there is really no enjoyment in that for me .
(But then , equally , I don't get any enjoyment in ''Driving in convoy ''
Why would you want to drive behind someone else in any car ? )
This is so very different to 20 years ago , when you could drive a 5167cc Bizzarrini-engined wedge from Somerset to the French side of the Pyrenees in one hit without worrying too much about being arrested.
Well that's now in the past , and there is no point harking back to a period that's never going to return , so one has to adapt by choosing to drive a car which is better adapted to 2018's road and traffic conditions.
I chose the X BOW R because its fast enough , exposed , manual (although I totally respect the PDK gearbox , and think that the E-gear single clutch box has its attractions) , stunning to my eyes , and has the sort of factory support where you can still readily speak to the CEO , who still remembers a nobody like me ,( a bit like Sant'Agata was in the last century ).
Most importantly though , it majors on CORNERING , which is where I think today's driving fun is to be found . (Do wish it had a normally aspirated engine though --- my one regret )
So unless you adapt , you are going to miss out on DRIVING----to my mind that is the unpalatable truth.
So I'll keep what I've got because I love them , but I don't think that these lovable dinosaurs are of any use , and I cant see myself ever buying another '' Supercar '' . 800 bhp in a road car in Southern England today ---- But why ? , unless you are being totally suckered by the marketing types
And this myth about driving in Europe-- I've driven more miles on the Continent these last few years than in the UK------France has just lowered its speed limits , and UK cars are a special attraction , German autobahns are essentially overcrowded roadworks , Romanian and Hungarian roads will test your suspension to smithereens , Italy is great , really great if you can find the hidden treasures , ditto Portugal and Spain --but watch out for unmarked police cars .
So traditional , large , heavy , supercars with high top speeds will always have a ready supply of customers , but sadly those same customers will not have the opportunity to use their cars for what these supercars were actually designed to excel in .
In 2018 , cornering is where the driving fun is to be found IMHO
And finally , what's all this stuff about : ''just drive it , and don't talk about the residuals /money/depreciation , its a car ''
I've never considered buying a car on credit , but I would totally respect any person who seriously and carefully weighs up every aspect of ownership . Surely careful consideration involves getting as much information from as many sources as possible , and as fora such as PH represent a potential treasure-trove of information , such money- related topics are a very legitimate topic of discussion .
Better sign off now , as I'm off to the Wilton Wake up in 5 1/2 hours .
I've almost completely stopped driving '' Supercars '' , because they are no longer drivable in Southern England.
By drivable , I mean being able to regularly using the available rev range in more than just
1st gear.
I've heard people tell me that they enjoy taking their ''Supercars '' to Tesco , and I am sure that they do , but there is really no enjoyment in that for me .
(But then , equally , I don't get any enjoyment in ''Driving in convoy ''
Why would you want to drive behind someone else in any car ? )
This is so very different to 20 years ago , when you could drive a 5167cc Bizzarrini-engined wedge from Somerset to the French side of the Pyrenees in one hit without worrying too much about being arrested.
Well that's now in the past , and there is no point harking back to a period that's never going to return , so one has to adapt by choosing to drive a car which is better adapted to 2018's road and traffic conditions.
I chose the X BOW R because its fast enough , exposed , manual (although I totally respect the PDK gearbox , and think that the E-gear single clutch box has its attractions) , stunning to my eyes , and has the sort of factory support where you can still readily speak to the CEO , who still remembers a nobody like me ,( a bit like Sant'Agata was in the last century ).
Most importantly though , it majors on CORNERING , which is where I think today's driving fun is to be found . (Do wish it had a normally aspirated engine though --- my one regret )
So unless you adapt , you are going to miss out on DRIVING----to my mind that is the unpalatable truth.
So I'll keep what I've got because I love them , but I don't think that these lovable dinosaurs are of any use , and I cant see myself ever buying another '' Supercar '' . 800 bhp in a road car in Southern England today ---- But why ? , unless you are being totally suckered by the marketing types
And this myth about driving in Europe-- I've driven more miles on the Continent these last few years than in the UK------France has just lowered its speed limits , and UK cars are a special attraction , German autobahns are essentially overcrowded roadworks , Romanian and Hungarian roads will test your suspension to smithereens , Italy is great , really great if you can find the hidden treasures , ditto Portugal and Spain --but watch out for unmarked police cars .
So traditional , large , heavy , supercars with high top speeds will always have a ready supply of customers , but sadly those same customers will not have the opportunity to use their cars for what these supercars were actually designed to excel in .
In 2018 , cornering is where the driving fun is to be found IMHO
And finally , what's all this stuff about : ''just drive it , and don't talk about the residuals /money/depreciation , its a car ''
I've never considered buying a car on credit , but I would totally respect any person who seriously and carefully weighs up every aspect of ownership . Surely careful consideration involves getting as much information from as many sources as possible , and as fora such as PH represent a potential treasure-trove of information , such money- related topics are a very legitimate topic of discussion .
Better sign off now , as I'm off to the Wilton Wake up in 5 1/2 hours .
Carspath - it's fairly amusing you have been so vocal about supercars not being enjoyable as one is not able to scratch most of their abilities on the road but you have now bought a car in the Xbow with considerably greater cornering abilities than almost any supercar. So while you say cornering is where the driving fun is, you are probably going to be using even less % of the your car's cornering capability than if you were driving one of these large heavy supercars that you so decry....
Isaldiri--- I see the point you are making , and agree with you to some extent.
The difference are that :
- the X bow is relatively short-geared , so you can stir through the gears more often.
- being in an exposed cockpit means that your sight-lines are better , and the degree of exposure in this particular car just enhances every sensation
-regarding Cornering , both you and I know just where our local roundabouts are , and where the slip roads are .
I call it my ''round about car ''.
Its the quickness of direction change (lets call it agility ) that is most engaging and most pleasurable --- and this agility is directly related to a lack of mass.
A light-weight car has this built-in advantage , and a heavier car cannot compensate for this through having more torque , power or wider tyres.
I entirely agree that I am using only a tiny proportion of the X BOW's capability , and would further agree that the limiting factor here is not the roads or traffic , but my lack of talent.
I adore supercars , so would certainly not decry them , but would simply point out that we can no longer enjoy DRIVING them in the manner that they were primarily designed for .
The difference are that :
- the X bow is relatively short-geared , so you can stir through the gears more often.
- being in an exposed cockpit means that your sight-lines are better , and the degree of exposure in this particular car just enhances every sensation
-regarding Cornering , both you and I know just where our local roundabouts are , and where the slip roads are .
I call it my ''round about car ''.
Its the quickness of direction change (lets call it agility ) that is most engaging and most pleasurable --- and this agility is directly related to a lack of mass.
A light-weight car has this built-in advantage , and a heavier car cannot compensate for this through having more torque , power or wider tyres.
I entirely agree that I am using only a tiny proportion of the X BOW's capability , and would further agree that the limiting factor here is not the roads or traffic , but my lack of talent.
I adore supercars , so would certainly not decry them , but would simply point out that we can no longer enjoy DRIVING them in the manner that they were primarily designed for .
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