New Ferrari eh, things

[Roof down]

The Surveyor said:

av185 said:

PompeyReece said:

Bunty Killa said:

More cars more choice - can't see anything wrong with it

Diluting the brand?

The Porsche Caysters did nothing to dilute 911s.

It did for me.

Porsche used to be a sports car manufacturer, now they are just a car manufacturer. The 911 is just another model off the generic VW production lines.

And yes I know that's not totally true, and yes I know about the 924 in the past, and yes I know the 911 is still fabulous, but the perception is certainly diluted.

Have to agree

[Superleg48]

Spiritual_Beggar said:

_Leg_ said:

Ferrari have missed a trick not bringing something in below the 488 that's simpler, smaller, lighter and sub 200k specced up IMO too.

Would love Ferrari to do an entry level model below the 488. Something driver focussed to rival the Cayman market.

Would that not be the California?

[boxerTen]

Spiritual_Beggar said:

_Leg_ said:

Ferrari have missed a trick not bringing something in below the 488 that's simpler, smaller, lighter and sub 200k specced up IMO too.

Would love Ferrari to do an entry level model below the 488. Something driver focussed to rival the Cayman market.

I'd love them to do a dedicated track day car - less than 1000 kg, mid-engined, absolutely no frills, a smallish V12, say 3 or 4 litres, and production numbers large enough that anyone can buy one.

[Cipo]

Superleg48 said:

Spiritual_Beggar said:

_Leg_ said:

Ferrari have missed a trick not bringing something in below the 488 that's simpler, smaller, lighter and sub 200k specced up IMO too.

Would love Ferrari to do an entry level model below the 488. Something driver focussed to rival the Cayman market.

Would that not be the California?

Or even the new 600hp Portofino?

[_Leg_]

Superleg48 said:

Spiritual_Beggar said:

_Leg_ said:

Ferrari have missed a trick not bringing something in below the 488 that's simpler, smaller, lighter and sub 200k specced up IMO too.

Would love Ferrari to do an entry level model below the 488. Something driver focussed to rival the Cayman market.

Would that not be the California?

No, the California was (now replaced by the Portofino) a front engined, 2+2, baby GT lacking in the driving dynamics of theca's in the sector Ferrari currently aren't in.

They could have introduced a 570S/911 Turbo/Mercedes AMG GT-R rivalling mid engined, 2 seater, lighter, V6T car based on the Alfa Romeo Quadrofiglio engine (which is the 458's V8 with 2 cylinders lopped off and a blower bolted to it anyway). Price it at £160,000 base with options up to £200,000 for the coupe and it would have flown out of the showrooms I would imagine.

But, it may have taken sales away from the upcoming 488 replacement which will undoubtedly be early 200s base and optioning up to 300 I would guess. I can see how they may fear that could happen although surely they're losing out to Porsche, Mercedes and McLaren in the market I mention above?

Ho hum. Wishful thinking. The rumoured Dino put the thought in my mind as well as the other marques in that sector I mention above. SUV it is.

[Taaaaang]

I don't think the Portofino is what he meant.

I picked up my 458 the day the dealer were doing the Portofino roadshow; I was there for hours and didn't see a potential customer under 55.

Ferrari are getting smashed in my demographic (35 and under)...I don't know a single person under mid 40s who owns a Ferrari other than myself. McLaren and Lambo are just annihilating them in this sector.

Now I know there aren't exactly loads of youngsters buying supercars but it worries me.

[anonymous-user]

Taaaaang said:

I don't think the Portofino is what he meant.

I picked up my 458 the day the dealer were doing the Portofino roadshow; I was there for hours and didn't see a potential customer under 55.

Ferrari are getting smashed in my demographic (35 and under)...I don't know a single person under mid 40s who owns a Ferrari other than myself. McLaren and Lambo are just annihilating them in this sector.

Now I know there aren't exactly loads of youngsters buying supercars but it worries me.

I wouldn't be overly concerned because once you leave that age group you might look at things at a different angle, it's like Lotus ownership which seems to attract the young sports car fan and speaking as someone who's 55 they just wouldn't appeal to me, getting out of a crazy looking Lamborghini is more for the under 50s, on the other hand Ferrari and Maserati cater for young and old alike imho and a Ferrari pulling up at a show still has the biggest draw.

[_Leg_]

Raygun said:

Taaaaang said:

I don't think the Portofino is what he meant.

I picked up my 458 the day the dealer were doing the Portofino roadshow; I was there for hours and didn't see a potential customer under 55.

Ferrari are getting smashed in my demographic (35 and under)...I don't know a single person under mid 40s who owns a Ferrari other than myself. McLaren and Lambo are just annihilating them in this sector.

Now I know there aren't exactly loads of youngsters buying supercars but it worries me.

I wouldn't be overly concerned because once you leave that age group you might look at things at a different angle, it's like Lotus ownership which seems to attract the young sports car fan and speaking as someone who's 55 they just wouldn't appeal to me, getting out of a crazy looking Lamborghini is more for the under 50s, on the other hand Ferrari and Maserati cater for young and old alike imho and a Ferrari pulling up at a show still has the biggest draw.

God knows what demographic I'm in then as I have two Lotuseseses in my collection (96 Esprit V8 and a '17 Exige 350 Sport) and I'm 48.

The North Yorkshire Lotus Club has members in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s and I think a couple are in their 70s. In fact, thinking of the monthly meets, I dare say most members are 50+. Most of them have to leave the meeting part of the monthly get together at least once to go for a piss and it only lasts 40 minutes. Haha.

I suspect the reason Ferrari sell less to the market Taaaang refers to is that they don't have a car at the price point to compete against the 540 and 570 McLaren etc which is the point I made earlier.

[willy wombat]

If you look at the way Macs depreciate versus Ferraris, Ferrari might be being smart to avoid the cheaper (relatively) end of the market.

[Spiritual_Beggar]

Cipo said:

Superleg48 said:

Spiritual_Beggar said:

_Leg_ said:

Ferrari have missed a trick not bringing something in below the 488 that's simpler, smaller, lighter and sub 200k specced up IMO too.

Would love Ferrari to do an entry level model below the 488. Something driver focussed to rival the Cayman market.

Would that not be the California?

Or even the new 600hp Portofino?

No, thats a different type of car....Front engined, GT.

I'm talking about something mid-engined, lower power (circa 400-450bhp), with less of a focus on electronics. Something that isn't chasing BHP figures, or quickest 'Green Hell' lap....but is fun to drive, and with a manual! A smaller car aimed at the Cayman, Evora/ Exige market

Won't happen, I know.....but would be a great little car if they did do something like this!

[sardis]

Hmmm,

I’m 58 and onto my fourth Lambo so demographics are varied. Personally I think age is mental rather than physical. However, must admit to creaking a bit these days when I get out after a few hours driving

[av185]

The Surveyor said:

It did for me.

Porsche used to be a sports car manufacturer, now they are just a car manufacturer. The 911 is just another model off the generic VW production lines.

Not at all.

[The Surveyor]

av185 said:

The Surveyor said:

It did for me.

Porsche used to be a sports car manufacturer, now they are just a car manufacturer. The 911 is just another model off the generic VW production lines.

Not at all.

Please read in the context of my full post.

Porsche does still make fabulous sports cars, but I no longer see them as a sports car manufacturer, it's just been diluted too much. Lamborghini are going the same way as they become more and more bandage-engineered Audis. Mercedes are no longer the bastion of luxury and BMW no longer focus on making 'the ultimate driving machine'. Land Rover are no longer the maker of utility vehicles and Skoda no longer make embarrassing crap.

Things change, not always for the better and the direction Ferrari are heading is not (IMHO) universally positive.

[Nurburgsingh]

PompeyReece said:

Bunty Killa said:

More cars more choice - can't see anything wrong with it

Diluting the brand?

Agree - Turn it into the crap that McLaren have become churning out a new model twice a year with some different body panels and a software upgrade.

[av185]

The Surveyor said:

Porsche does still make fabulous sports cars, but I no longer see them as a sports car manufacturer, it's just been diluted too much.

If Porsche had taken the Luddite view simply to manufacture sports cars eg just the 911 without the remaining expanding segments via Panamera Cayenne and Macan they would not have survived.

[The Surveyor]

av185 said:

The Surveyor said:

Porsche does still make fabulous sports cars, but I no longer see them as a sports car manufacturer, it's just been diluted too much.

If Porsche had taken the Luddite view simply to manufacture sports cars eg just the 911 without the remaining expanding segments via Panamera Cayenne and Macan they would not have survived.

Porsche had been saved earlier from their 928 and 4 pot failures by the Boxster so they have history of lurching from one crisis to another. Despite that, the point I'm making is they chased the mass SUV market rather than staying with their roots.

That's what has diluted the brand in my opinion.

[hyphen]

The Surveyor said:

av185 said:

The Surveyor said:

Porsche does still make fabulous sports cars, but I no longer see them as a sports car manufacturer, it's just been diluted too much.

If Porsche had taken the Luddite view simply to manufacture sports cars eg just the 911 without the remaining expanding segments via Panamera Cayenne and Macan they would not have survived.

Porsche had been saved earlier from their 928 and 4 pot failures by the Boxster so they have history of lurching from one crisis to another. Despite that, the point I'm making is they chased the mass SUV market rather than staying with their roots.

That's what has diluted the brand in my opinion.

I would get a Macan over many of its rivals, however I would also get an Evora over a normal 911 as prefer the Lotus brand for a sports car.

Lotus will be doing the same down the line too though.

[av185]

The Surveyor said:

av185 said:

The Surveyor said:

Porsche does still make fabulous sports cars, but I no longer see them as a sports car manufacturer, it's just been diluted too much.

If Porsche had taken the Luddite view simply to manufacture sports cars eg just the 911 without the remaining expanding segments via Panamera Cayenne and Macan they would not have survived.

Porsche had been saved earlier from their 928 and 4 pot failures by the Boxster so they have history of lurching from one crisis to another. Despite that, the point I'm making is they chased the mass SUV market rather than staying with their roots.

That's what has diluted the brand in my opinion.

Although Porsche have remained true to their roots with their focused sports car division (GT cars) more than most other manufacturers by retaining naturally aspirated engines and 'manuel' transmissions on their cars giving those of us interested in driver involvement exactly what they wanted.

Unlike e.g. McLaren btw.

[sparta6]

15 new variants ?

Ferrari never used to give a st about "market share".
Low production volume preserved its exclusivity.
Today's shareholders are really managing to screw up the world's most iconic supercar manufacturer.
Well done.

[sparta6]

The Surveyor said:

Porsche had been saved earlier from their 928 and 4 pot failures by the Boxster so they have history of lurching from one crisis to another. Despite that, the point I'm making is they chased the mass SUV market rather than staying with their roots.

That's what has diluted the brand in my opinion.

The reason Porsche stopped 928 production was due to it being over-engineered and each car cost more to produce than it's retail price.
Sales of all 61,221 units meant Porsche had quite a hole in it's balance sheet.
Cue production of cheaper and more accessible cars - the Boxster served its purpose well.