Engine rebuild

Author
Discussion

Never you mind

1,179 posts

49 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Thanks Lambo - May or may not be - Dave. biggrin . Good to know that on the LP cars there is no need to decat it. However I would very much like to decat mine so how difficult is it to do?

Sorry for the thread derail.

ricky.rep

2 posts

14 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Morning All,

Thank you to everyone for the kind words, it means a great deal what people think and I work extremely hard to make sure everyone leaves happy.

Also, thank you to the OP for trusting me with his lady and as such the work we are about to undertake.

I won't hijack the thread, and am certainly happy to comment on another thread regarding this topic, but just wanted to clear up some of the decat conversation.

For anyone owning a Pre LP (5.0 engine) Gallardo then there is the risk that the catalysts will start to decay along their joining face with the outer metal pipework. When this happens (especially if on the front face which is especially common on mapped cars) then the engine will draw this material back in on overrun as the induction stroke begins and the exhaust valves have not fully closed. This will then put ceramic material in the bores that gets caught between the piston crown and cylinder walls. Think of it like a grinding paste, over time it destroys the rings, bore coating and eventually the skirt, which removes piston support and causes them to rock and as such the circle self perpecuates.

This is not an issue on the later LP engines which is the same engine as the 5.2 V10 Audi R8, the catalysts are in the headers and I have pushed these headers to 900bhp on our twin turbo conversions with no issues.

For those with the 5.0 pre LP engine then the catalysts are fairly simple to fit, the worst part being the exhaust clamps normally snap and they are quite costly. We use Larini units that have a full decat and a sports cat option for those carbon footprint conscious owners.

If you go full decat and you are running Campi ecu's with the larger oblong throttle bodies, you have a very high chance of no engine warning light coming on once decatted (had a few later ones pick it up but not many). If you have Bosch ecu's with the more conventional looking throttle bodies, you WILL get an engine warning light on and it will need mapping out.

In all honesty, a good map on these once decatted is quite essential. It frees up so much power.

I will keep updating the OP on progress, we are still in a "pricing and planning" stage at the minute.

Any questions please let me know, I would be happy to answer them.

Kindest regards Ricky
REPerformance

4321go

Original Poster:

367 posts

124 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Whilst I did ask Ricky to contribute his expert knowledge on the decat issue, I really appreciate the time that he’s taken to provide such s comprehensive reply. I shouldn’t have really expected anything otherwise though, should I?

Cheers Ears!!

selym

6,596 posts

108 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Although I'll never be able to afford an exotic like this I am fascinated and the input by the OP, engine builder and owners is absolute gold dust. Please keep it coming.

Trev450

5,655 posts

109 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
ricky.rep said:
Morning All,

Thank you to everyone for the kind words, it means a great deal what people think and I work extremely hard to make sure everyone leaves happy.

Also, thank you to the OP for trusting me with his lady and as such the work we are about to undertake.

I won't hijack the thread, and am certainly happy to comment on another thread regarding this topic, but just wanted to clear up some of the decat conversation.

For anyone owning a Pre LP (5.0 engine) Gallardo then there is the risk that the catalysts will start to decay along their joining face with the outer metal pipework. When this happens (especially if on the front face which is especially common on mapped cars) then the engine will draw this material back in on overrun as the induction stroke begins and the exhaust valves have not fully closed. This will then put ceramic material in the bores that gets caught between the piston crown and cylinder walls. Think of it like a grinding paste, over time it destroys the rings, bore coating and eventually the skirt, which removes piston support and causes them to rock and as such the circle self perpecuates.

This is not an issue on the later LP engines which is the same engine as the 5.2 V10 Audi R8, the catalysts are in the headers and I have pushed these headers to 900bhp on our twin turbo conversions with no issues.

For those with the 5.0 pre LP engine then the catalysts are fairly simple to fit, the worst part being the exhaust clamps normally snap and they are quite costly. We use Larini units that have a full decat and a sports cat option for those carbon footprint conscious owners.

If you go full decat and you are running Campi ecu's with the larger oblong throttle bodies, you have a very high chance of no engine warning light coming on once decatted (had a few later ones pick it up but not many). If you have Bosch ecu's with the more conventional looking throttle bodies, you WILL get an engine warning light on and it will need mapping out.

In all honesty, a good map on these once decatted is quite essential. It frees up so much power.

I will keep updating the OP on progress, we are still in a "pricing and planning" stage at the minute.

Any questions please let me know, I would be happy to answer them.

Kindest regards Ricky
REPerformance
Great first post Ricky. Thanks also for clarifying the engines that can have problematic cats.
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LamboDave

39 posts

63 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Never you mind said:
Thanks Lambo - May or may not be - Dave. biggrin . Good to know that on the LP cars there is no need to decat it. However I would very much like to decat mine so how difficult is it to do?

Sorry for the thread derail.
It would involve swapping the exhaust manifolds. I’ve only ever removed these with the engine out, so unless there is a way to do it with the engine in it would be a substantial job.

ricky.rep

2 posts

14 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
LamboDave said:
It would involve swapping the exhaust manifolds. I’ve only ever removed these with the engine out, so unless there is a way to do it with the engine in it would be a substantial job.
Yeah, we do lots of decat on LP560 and 5.2 R8 etc and its engine out to remove the headers for modification! Great fun!

Cheers Ricky

Superleg48

420 posts

70 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
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LamboDave said:
I wouldn’t worry about it on the later LP spec engines, the catalysts are completely different from the early type. I’m also sure they are integrated into the manifolds so not such an easy swap. Unless you have a running issue which causes the catalysts to overheat, they shouldn’t fail.
Thank you. I will relax now and continue to read this thread with interest on the engine rebuild...

And thank you Ricky for your concise and detailed input. Very much appreciated.

Edited by Superleg48 on Saturday 15th December 16:18

70proof

5,745 posts

92 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
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Easily supercar thread of the year already

br d

6,548 posts

163 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
quotequote all
70proof said:
Easily supercar thread of the year already
Absolutely, just gets better every time I come back.

Wish I still had mine, I'd be knocking down Ricky's door right now!

C. Grimsley

1,203 posts

132 months

Thursday 27th December 2018
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Any updates mr?

Carl

4321go

Original Poster:

367 posts

124 months

Thursday 27th December 2018
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Shortly, I believe.......

julian64

12,592 posts

191 months

Wednesday 9th January
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Another person waiting for updates. Suspense is killing me

4321go

Original Poster:

367 posts

124 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
Sorry!

It’s taken Ricky a little while to get quotes for all of the major parts required, both OEM and aftermarket, and for the potential outsourced machine-shop work. In fact, I finally received the quote for all bar sundries just last night.

However, until the engine is out and stripped, we won’t know the full extent of the work required. Really, the unknown is the cylinder heads. Meanwhile, Ricky and I have discussed the direction that we think that we are going to go in.

I believe that the plan is to remove the engine in the very near future (Friday was mentioned!) and it’ll hopefully be stripped shortly after that. What we have decided to do is to bore and sleeve the original block, rather than build the engine around a new one. Here’s our thinking:

My car has 106,000 miles under its wheels. It’s a fab vehicle in great condition, both mechanically and cosmetically. But it can never be a collectors car! If it was a manual Mk1 Superleggera or a Balboni that had only ever covered a handful of dry miles before unfortunately lunching on a failed cat, then perhaps the expense of a new block could be justified by the potential value of the car. But even with an uprated, rebuilt engine, my car will only ever appeal to a buyer who wants to continue to drive the car and will only ever command a price at the lower end of the market. The added expense of a brand new block can’t be justified.

If we DID build up around a new block then, as it’s already de-catted there’d be no worry about the Nikasil plating of the bores becoming scored in the same way again. But the only real advantage would be being able to say, “Yeah! It’s got a broand new Lamborghini block....” Instead, the old block will be cleaned up and inspected before being sent away for specialist machining. The bores will be um...... bored and then steel liners will be inserted and honed to accept new pistons. The advantage in this is both price (later!) and we’ll be running traditional steel bores rather than trick, but ultimately fragile plated alloy ones.

New block from Lambo: £5601.23. Resleeved original block: £3750

Until the engine is stripped, we won’t know the state of the rest of the engine below the heads. However we think:

The crank should be fine. There’s no reason to expect any undue wear and we’re planning on being able to reuse it with a polish of the journals at best and a grind and oversize shells at worst! We’ll just have to cross our fingers at this stage. A new crank WILL NOT be cheap!!

Pistons are another matter. It’d be lovely to find that the originals are perfect and just need re-ringing. But Ricky is pretty certain that the skirts will have been affected by the scoring of the bores. So the options will then be OEM pistons (£1185) and rings (£270.70) (EACH!!!) or lighter, stronger, better engineered forged pistons from CP-Carrillo. They come complete with rings. So,

OEM pistons and rings: £14557 (yes, really!). CP-Carrillo: £2400

Guess which way we’re leaning?

Finally for the bottom end, connecting rods. The originals may be fine. But they’ve been slinging heavy pistons up and down for a LONG time. I think that Ricky would probably refit the originals after suitable non-destructive testing if I asked him to. However, given the rest of the work, I suppose that my inclination (and certainly his!) is to renew. The question is, what with? The options are again OEM or CP-Carrillo. But here the answer is less clear-cut. The forged CP-Carrillo rods will be lighter and allow the engine to spin faster. Ultimately they can handle much more power. But we’re not building a monster. Ultimately I hope to have an engine that revs a bit more freely, is a bit more powerful and a bit more efficient. What’s “a bit”? Ten percent would be great! So, is the expense of aftermarket justified? Expense? Yes, here the tables are turned:

OEM connecting rods and bolts: £1163. CP-Carrillo: £2975 (!!)

There’ll be some more discussion before we make that call.......

Finally, for the moment, the sundries that’ll be needed regardless (all Lambo OEM):

Gasket set: £929.05 (apparently an old cornflakes box and candle-wax won’t do?)
Conrod shells: £433.60 (20 pieces) and Main bearing shells: £123.96 (12 pieces)
Main bearing thrust washers: £33.60 Valve seals: £208.40 (40 pieces)
Head bolts: £501.60 (24 pieces) Main cap bolts: £104.16 (24 pieces)

Nothing here about cylinder head work. I’ll come to them when they’re off and have been inspected. But it’s a 10-cylinder, 40-valve engine..........



Edited by 4321go on Wednesday 9th January 21:29


Edited by 4321go on Wednesday 9th January 21:31


Edited by 4321go on Wednesday 9th January 21:33

4321go

Original Poster:

367 posts

124 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
For the avoidance of doubt, those prices (with the exception of the individual prices of OEM piston and ring sets) are for a complete set for a V10 engine.

I’ll post photos and detail as we go along, but first Mr. Elder has to pull and strip the lump.

Over to you, Ricky.......

Trev450

5,655 posts

109 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
Many thanks for taking the time to provide an update 4321go. It goes without saying that I am one of many following this thread with interest. The price differential for pistons between oe and Carillo is mind boggling. What on earth are oe ones made from ffs, unobtanium!

Keep the updates coming please.

hyphen

8,604 posts

27 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
Trev450 said:
Many thanks for taking the time to provide an update 4321go. It goes without saying that I am one of many following this thread with interest. The price differential for pistons between oe and Carillo is mind boggling. What on earth are oe ones made from ffs, unobtanium!

Keep the updates coming please.
+1 Very interesting read

4321go

Original Poster:

367 posts

124 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
I think that the problem is that the 5.0 litre engine is unique to Lambo. Audi chucked the 4.0 V8 from the RS6 (IIRC) at Sant Agata Bolognese and allowed then to get on with it. The resulting 5.0 was ONLY fitted to the pre-LP Gallardos.

Audi then took the engine back and developed it into the 5.2 litre engine that went into the subsequent RS6, Q7(?), R8 and LP-series Gallardo. Thus, the 5.0 parts supply is dictated by Lamborghini, the 5.2 by Audi. I think that’s probably why OEM rods look so reasonable?

Edited by 4321go on Wednesday 9th January 22:16

Superleg48

420 posts

70 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
This is a fab thread. So much learning! If I ever need this kind of work on mine, there is only one place I will go.

200Plus Club

4,993 posts

215 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
Sweet baby jesus on the oe pistons lol.
Some substantial costs building when you think of course you'll have cleaning/machining/ balancing etc of the short motor then plus head work (assume new stem seals and a clean up minimum, possibly new valves if any wear?)
Then of course brand new oil and water pump is guess and all your timing chains and ancilliaries.
New nuts n bolts throughout, injectors perhaps flow tested and cleaned for safety?

Very interesting for once to see actual costs being discussed and of course all plus Labour and vat etc. Afterwards you will at least have an absolute tool you can enjoy and thrash once bedded in.

I've just completed a full rebuild on a 4 pot 50yr old Alfa Nord and got away with about £6k fully fitted. That's for high comp pistons and decent liners, fully rebuilt head with new valves, all new oil and water pump etc. So many bits and bobs you don't consider but need to buy as well, ie doing everything right once (clutch, slave, lightened and balancing act etc)
Great feeling once it's driving again tho.
Keep us informed as this is very interesting .