Engine rebuild
Discussion
Really interesting thread, thanks for sharing in such detail!
Im really shocked at the price different in some of the OEM Lambo parts, I was expecting expensive, but maybe not that expensive, but then some other items seem reasonable value! I wonder if the rods are perhaps uses on other cars/engines therefore cheaper?
Did you consider buying a "new" second hand engine instead? Im not sure how much an engine would be from say a crash damaged car. I understand the whole complete refresh for peace of mind on yours, but for time/cost, I just wondered if that would of been an easier route?
Im really shocked at the price different in some of the OEM Lambo parts, I was expecting expensive, but maybe not that expensive, but then some other items seem reasonable value! I wonder if the rods are perhaps uses on other cars/engines therefore cheaper?
Did you consider buying a "new" second hand engine instead? Im not sure how much an engine would be from say a crash damaged car. I understand the whole complete refresh for peace of mind on yours, but for time/cost, I just wondered if that would of been an easier route?
200Plus Club said:
Sweet baby jesus on the oe pistons lol.
Some substantial costs building when you think of course you'll have cleaning/machining/ balancing etc of the short motor then plus head work (assume new stem seals and a clean up minimum, possibly new valves if any wear?)
Then of course brand new oil and water pump is guess and all your timing chains and ancilliaries.
New nuts n bolts throughout, injectors perhaps flow tested and cleaned for safety?
Absolutely spot-on with all of your points! The oil pump gets rebuilt rather than replaced. The chains are getting replaced. The injectors will be flow-tested. Head work I’ll discuss when they’ve been removed and assessed, but I have the options and pricing for it all. Some substantial costs building when you think of course you'll have cleaning/machining/ balancing etc of the short motor then plus head work (assume new stem seals and a clean up minimum, possibly new valves if any wear?)
Then of course brand new oil and water pump is guess and all your timing chains and ancilliaries.
New nuts n bolts throughout, injectors perhaps flow tested and cleaned for safety?
The post above was really more to show the options between OEM and aftermarket and our thoughts as to which way to go (some of those options being no-brainers!!)
Ellb123 said:
Really interesting thread, thanks for sharing in such detail!
Im really shocked at the price different in some of the OEM Lambo parts, I was expecting expensive, but maybe not that expensive, but then some other items seem reasonable value! I wonder if the rods are perhaps uses on other cars/engines therefore cheaper?
Did you consider buying a "new" second hand engine instead? Im not sure how much an engine would be from say a crash damaged car. I understand the whole complete refresh for peace of mind on yours, but for time/cost, I just wondered if that would of been an easier route?
As to your first point, see my post at the foot of page 4Im really shocked at the price different in some of the OEM Lambo parts, I was expecting expensive, but maybe not that expensive, but then some other items seem reasonable value! I wonder if the rods are perhaps uses on other cars/engines therefore cheaper?
Did you consider buying a "new" second hand engine instead? Im not sure how much an engine would be from say a crash damaged car. I understand the whole complete refresh for peace of mind on yours, but for time/cost, I just wondered if that would of been an easier route?
Meanwhile, second-hand engines go for between £16-20k, which will be about the cost of the rebuild. And you’re buying a pre-worn engine with no idea of what sort of life it’s had. This way, I’ll have an engine that’s (potentially) better than new!
Oh, and a new, undressed motor from Lambo is circa £30k
4321go said:
Meanwhile, second-hand engines go for between £16-20k, which will be about the cost of the rebuild. And you’re buying a pre-worn engine with no idea of what sort of life it’s had. This way, I’ll have an engine that’s (potentially) better than new!
I thought this may be the reason, and probably the route that I would choose too if in the position.Thanks for taking the time to reply, best of luck with it all and keep us updated! Pictures would be nice too!
4321go said:
For the avoidance of doubt, those prices (with the exception of the individual prices of OEM piston and ring sets) are for a complete set for a V10 engine.
I’ll post photos and detail as we go along, but first Mr. Elder has to pull and strip the lump.
Over to you, Ricky.......
Very interesting stuff. I have a V10 and have done a high end rebuild of a dry sump TVR engine myself. I’ll post photos and detail as we go along, but first Mr. Elder has to pull and strip the lump.
Over to you, Ricky.......
The prices don’t look too bad. Rebuilding a TVR speed six with all the best parts possible produced a parts bill around the 10k mark.
The only price standing out slightly high is the block sleeving. Does that include other machining activity in addition to the sleeving? Is there any line boring required.
For me, from a longevity and durability perspective sleeving is definitely the way to go.
Good to see your mileage though. At my rate of miles that should only take me another 70 - 80 years to get to.
4321go said:
I think that the problem is that the 5.0 litre engine is unique to Lambo. Audi chucked the 4.0 V8 from the RS6 (IIRC) at Sant Agata Bolognese and allowed then to get on with it. The resulting 5.0 was ONLY fitted to the pre-LP Gallardos.
Audi then took the engine back and developed it into the 5.2 litre engine that went into the subsequent RS6, Q7(?), R8 and LP-series Gallardo. Thus, the 5.0 parts supply is dictated by Lamborghini, the 5.2 by Audi. I think that’s probably why OEM rods look so reasonable?
Amazing thread and really enjoying the updates; I can only contribute but a sniff of Audi development history.Audi then took the engine back and developed it into the 5.2 litre engine that went into the subsequent RS6, Q7(?), R8 and LP-series Gallardo. Thus, the 5.0 parts supply is dictated by Lamborghini, the 5.2 by Audi. I think that’s probably why OEM rods look so reasonable?
Edited by 4321go on Wednesday 9th January 22:16
To the best of my knowledge the Lamborghini 5.0 remains unique; no Audi uses this or a version of it.
The Audi 5.2 V10 is a relative of the 4.2 V8:
Audi internal study guide said:
The 5.2L V10 engine is based on the design of the 4.2L V8 engine with the addition of two cylinders. The V10 cylinder block, cylinder heads, camshaft drive, fuel system, and intake manifold concept were adapted from the V8 engine.
Whether Lamborghini's 5.0 is inspired by, engineered from, or in any way evolved from an Audi engine I don't know but anecdotally the answer is no.The RS6 C6 generation 5.0 twin-turbo V10 is unique again and was only ever used in that car.
The nutty Q7 used a V12 diesel, itself an indirect Le Mans refugee.
The 5.2 did see service in the S6 (C6 generation) and S8 (D3 generation), although these variants were wet-sumped and lower-revving.
As several have already expressed above, thanks to OP for so openly sharing your engine re-build information and to Ricky for providing the benefit of your knowledge and experience of these engines.
I hope I’m not going too off-track with the following but you may already have the answers.
From the above posts it seems that for the pre LP engine cars, some/several of the longer term owners are probably heading towards an engine re-build due to the deterioration of the car’s ageing and disintegrating catalytic converters. Having your car serviced at the Lamborghini dealer won’t help, as per the above although they may provide a very thorough service, they probably won’t be mentioning this. Having a relatively low mileage (say low 20Ks) compared to more day to day cars (4321go’s excluded!) and not being thrashed from cold, largely one driver and no track day useage seems to be of no relevance.
For the pre-LP cars, even the youngest aged about 2008 will have 11 year old cats if they are the original ones, earlier cars even older. Are there any obvious warning signs that the cats are failing, thus already causing additional bore wear, without dismantling the system? At low 20k mileage I’m not yet seeing high oil consumption.
For those owners who would have preferred to keep the car as near to standard as possible, their preference would be to leave everything (the cats) as they are. The advice from the experts seems to be to ‘de-cat’ the probably deteriorating original cats, if you are intending to hold onto the car for the next few years. I certainly don’t want to be facing the cost of a similar engine rebuild. From the earlier posts it seems that the options are: 1) bypassing the existing cats, I assume that the originals remain in place; 2) replacing them; or 3) removing the cats. For option 1), is that switchable for the MOT? Possibly this is the lowest cost option. For option 2) is there already a longer lasting replacement? For 3), removing the cats, how do you get the car through the MOT? A re-map will also be needed.
Personally I prefer not to have the blue flames and already have an Superleggera exhaust.
Any further advice would be appreciated.
I hope I’m not going too off-track with the following but you may already have the answers.
From the above posts it seems that for the pre LP engine cars, some/several of the longer term owners are probably heading towards an engine re-build due to the deterioration of the car’s ageing and disintegrating catalytic converters. Having your car serviced at the Lamborghini dealer won’t help, as per the above although they may provide a very thorough service, they probably won’t be mentioning this. Having a relatively low mileage (say low 20Ks) compared to more day to day cars (4321go’s excluded!) and not being thrashed from cold, largely one driver and no track day useage seems to be of no relevance.
For the pre-LP cars, even the youngest aged about 2008 will have 11 year old cats if they are the original ones, earlier cars even older. Are there any obvious warning signs that the cats are failing, thus already causing additional bore wear, without dismantling the system? At low 20k mileage I’m not yet seeing high oil consumption.
For those owners who would have preferred to keep the car as near to standard as possible, their preference would be to leave everything (the cats) as they are. The advice from the experts seems to be to ‘de-cat’ the probably deteriorating original cats, if you are intending to hold onto the car for the next few years. I certainly don’t want to be facing the cost of a similar engine rebuild. From the earlier posts it seems that the options are: 1) bypassing the existing cats, I assume that the originals remain in place; 2) replacing them; or 3) removing the cats. For option 1), is that switchable for the MOT? Possibly this is the lowest cost option. For option 2) is there already a longer lasting replacement? For 3), removing the cats, how do you get the car through the MOT? A re-map will also be needed.
Personally I prefer not to have the blue flames and already have an Superleggera exhaust.
Any further advice would be appreciated.
I would assume if you want it standard ish then getting an exhaust specialist to fit you brand new sports type cats would be the option at perhaps 8yrs or more age purely as a safety precaution would be good insurance.
Cats themselves are not that expensive in the run of things, it's getting yours out and new welded in that will be the initial cost.
I have seen sports cats on v band clamps that once fitted are easily swapped if access isn't too bad. I imagine they are a nightmare to get to on a v10 lambo or R8 and that Ricky would be well placed to advise.
Cats themselves are not that expensive in the run of things, it's getting yours out and new welded in that will be the initial cost.
I have seen sports cats on v band clamps that once fitted are easily swapped if access isn't too bad. I imagine they are a nightmare to get to on a v10 lambo or R8 and that Ricky would be well placed to advise.
Just a brief update tonight, starting with some spectacular thread drift.
I can thoroughly recommend the guided tour of the Ramsbury brewery and distillery! https://www.ramsbury.com/book-a-guided-tour My cousin, Nick, was given a couple of tickets for his birthday last year and invited me to accompany him, so we went on Friday. There’s plenty of opportunity throughout the tour to sample their excellent craft ales, vodka and gin. I’m not a white spirits fan, but both of the latter are really good; certainly good enough to sip neat! Fred, one of the two brewers, gives a really enthused 90 minute tour, and clearly loves doing so. He’s also a real petrol-head and will love it if you turn up in something interesting!
Why tell you this? Because Ramsbury is half-way between Nick’s in Newbury and Ricky’s joint in Swindon. So I bit the bullet, picked up Nick and drove to the brewery tour (!) and then afterwards we both went on to Swindon. (And before that causes uproar, I think that imbibed about one third of a pint in total. Bugger!!)
Ricky was hoping to have my engine out early last week, but it’s been fighting him. So he’d only got about half-way through the dismantling process required to extract it. However, it may actually be out by now. He told me that he intended to work on Saturday to get it out. I told him that I was in no rush and would prefer him to have a life. But it’s his company and he believes that he’s fallen behind with my car. It’s a personal deadline thing. I like that attitude!
I foolishly missed the opportunity to take the photograph that could easily have encompassed both my Lambo, two V10 R8s and a V8 R8, all in a similar state of undress. Without their rear bodywork, no number plates would have been visible and it would therefore have been perfect for posting. And it would have been an excellent example of why I know that my car is at the right place.
Meanwhile my own car was looking like this:
For those of you who look at it and think that it’s in a shocking state, be assured, YOUR car probably looks similar under its cosmetic dressings! You’re simply looking at the road-filth that accumulates in the areas that Lamborghini deliberately chooses to hide. And Ricky tells me that he’s already excited at the challenge of restoring it to near “factory fresh”. Like me, he doesn’t see the point of rebuilding the engine and then reinstalling it in a grubby chassis. Hopefully, in a couple of months, I’ll be in a position to repost this photo together with one of a stunningly transformed engine bay!
Ricky has a “clean room” for engine building. He currently has two V10s in build (both 5.2s I think?) One will be a 1500bhp, twin turbo unit! The next few photos are of those engines, just to whet your appetite....
When I last visited Ricky, he hadn’t received the quotes for the conrods. So I’d assumed that not only would the CP Carrillo rods be better than OE, but cheaper too! Finding that they’re almost three times the price meant I had to ask the question of whether they were worth it. Having held both OE and CP Carrillo in my hand, I can tell you that the aftermarket items are beautiful and I’d have them in a flash if they proved to be justifiable.But no! Ricky tells me that unless I want a race engine that’ll rev to 10,000rpm, or unless I intend to add turbos to the engine, the OE rods will do nicely. They’ll easily handle whatever power we end up with and unlike the stronger but lighter CP Carrillo pistons, their rods won’t really help the engine to rev more freely. But they really ARE beautifully made!!
Therefore, unless we uncover any horrors when the engine is stripped, bottom end work seems to be to: clean, test, bore, line and hone the block: clean and polish the crank journals: renew the rods with new OE items: and replace the pistons with CP Carrillo items. The rebuild will also incorporate a rebuilt oil pump, new timing chains and new bolts. Again, because we’re not going for extreme revs or power, head bolts, conrod bolts, mains bolts etc. will be new OE as the increased strength offered by ARP is simply not needed. (But again, they DO look sexy!!)
Again, although I’m now slightly more au fait with what head work will be sensible regardless, I’ll hold-off detailing it all exactly until they’re off and stripped. Once again, I’ll post both the options available to me and the prices, together with which way we go and why. What I know now is that the heads will be completely stripped and at the very least the valve springs will DEFFINITELY be renewed. The valve-train will PROBABLY be renewed and, if so, we’ll be using uprated aftermarket for not much more than OE, although that’ll incur an extra charge to recut the valve seats. And, if worn, then we MIGHT need to replace the valve guides, which will be done by the same engineering works that would cut the seats.
(Note the sexy focus, lurking in the background!
)
I can thoroughly recommend the guided tour of the Ramsbury brewery and distillery! https://www.ramsbury.com/book-a-guided-tour My cousin, Nick, was given a couple of tickets for his birthday last year and invited me to accompany him, so we went on Friday. There’s plenty of opportunity throughout the tour to sample their excellent craft ales, vodka and gin. I’m not a white spirits fan, but both of the latter are really good; certainly good enough to sip neat! Fred, one of the two brewers, gives a really enthused 90 minute tour, and clearly loves doing so. He’s also a real petrol-head and will love it if you turn up in something interesting!
Why tell you this? Because Ramsbury is half-way between Nick’s in Newbury and Ricky’s joint in Swindon. So I bit the bullet, picked up Nick and drove to the brewery tour (!) and then afterwards we both went on to Swindon. (And before that causes uproar, I think that imbibed about one third of a pint in total. Bugger!!)
Ricky was hoping to have my engine out early last week, but it’s been fighting him. So he’d only got about half-way through the dismantling process required to extract it. However, it may actually be out by now. He told me that he intended to work on Saturday to get it out. I told him that I was in no rush and would prefer him to have a life. But it’s his company and he believes that he’s fallen behind with my car. It’s a personal deadline thing. I like that attitude!
I foolishly missed the opportunity to take the photograph that could easily have encompassed both my Lambo, two V10 R8s and a V8 R8, all in a similar state of undress. Without their rear bodywork, no number plates would have been visible and it would therefore have been perfect for posting. And it would have been an excellent example of why I know that my car is at the right place.
Meanwhile my own car was looking like this:
For those of you who look at it and think that it’s in a shocking state, be assured, YOUR car probably looks similar under its cosmetic dressings! You’re simply looking at the road-filth that accumulates in the areas that Lamborghini deliberately chooses to hide. And Ricky tells me that he’s already excited at the challenge of restoring it to near “factory fresh”. Like me, he doesn’t see the point of rebuilding the engine and then reinstalling it in a grubby chassis. Hopefully, in a couple of months, I’ll be in a position to repost this photo together with one of a stunningly transformed engine bay!
Ricky has a “clean room” for engine building. He currently has two V10s in build (both 5.2s I think?) One will be a 1500bhp, twin turbo unit! The next few photos are of those engines, just to whet your appetite....
When I last visited Ricky, he hadn’t received the quotes for the conrods. So I’d assumed that not only would the CP Carrillo rods be better than OE, but cheaper too! Finding that they’re almost three times the price meant I had to ask the question of whether they were worth it. Having held both OE and CP Carrillo in my hand, I can tell you that the aftermarket items are beautiful and I’d have them in a flash if they proved to be justifiable.But no! Ricky tells me that unless I want a race engine that’ll rev to 10,000rpm, or unless I intend to add turbos to the engine, the OE rods will do nicely. They’ll easily handle whatever power we end up with and unlike the stronger but lighter CP Carrillo pistons, their rods won’t really help the engine to rev more freely. But they really ARE beautifully made!!
Therefore, unless we uncover any horrors when the engine is stripped, bottom end work seems to be to: clean, test, bore, line and hone the block: clean and polish the crank journals: renew the rods with new OE items: and replace the pistons with CP Carrillo items. The rebuild will also incorporate a rebuilt oil pump, new timing chains and new bolts. Again, because we’re not going for extreme revs or power, head bolts, conrod bolts, mains bolts etc. will be new OE as the increased strength offered by ARP is simply not needed. (But again, they DO look sexy!!)
Again, although I’m now slightly more au fait with what head work will be sensible regardless, I’ll hold-off detailing it all exactly until they’re off and stripped. Once again, I’ll post both the options available to me and the prices, together with which way we go and why. What I know now is that the heads will be completely stripped and at the very least the valve springs will DEFFINITELY be renewed. The valve-train will PROBABLY be renewed and, if so, we’ll be using uprated aftermarket for not much more than OE, although that’ll incur an extra charge to recut the valve seats. And, if worn, then we MIGHT need to replace the valve guides, which will be done by the same engineering works that would cut the seats.
(Note the sexy focus, lurking in the background!
)4321go said:
Meanwhile my own car was looking like this:
For those of you who look at it and think that it’s in a shocking state, be assured, YOUR car probably looks similar under its cosmetic dressings! You’re simply looking at the road-filth that accumulates in the areas that Lamborghini deliberately chooses to hide.
Well to be fair that is 100k miles worth of road filth! More than most have yet to see. For those of you who look at it and think that it’s in a shocking state, be assured, YOUR car probably looks similar under its cosmetic dressings! You’re simply looking at the road-filth that accumulates in the areas that Lamborghini deliberately chooses to hide.
Obi Wan said:
Would there be any drawbacks to having a 10,000rpm engine? It sounds like fun
I’m going to assume that your question is rather tongue-in-cheek. However, it’s an interesting one, nonetheless.To get the engine to spin to 10,000rpm would require soooooo much more work than just stronger conrods to cope with the greater acceleration of the pistons. At a guess: reprofiled air boxes to cope with the increased amount air demand: custom air filters ditto: and massive reprofiling of the ports, probably requiring the addition of material as well as the usual removal: hugely uprated valve gear and springs to cope with the increased forces: new, custom injectors to flow the increased fuel flow: those strengthened conrods: massive lightening of the crank, flywheel and clutch: an uprated oil pump: increased cooling capacity........
Basically, I’d be funding a race car engine, but without the backing of a race team. £50k, without the R&D? And then there’d be the chassis upgrades to cope with probably 650bhp (without the restrictions that the Gallardo GT3 cars ran in the day). And it’d need rebuilding every 5000 miles. And it’d be undriveable in everyday motoring. And.......
But, it would sound electrifying!!!
As is, Ricky will be building a slightly looser engine than standard. It’ll be able to rev slightly more freely and be slightly more powerful than stock. As I’ve written previously; what’s “slightly”? Don’t know!! Ten percent? Another 50bhp? An rev limiter raised by 600rpm? I’m not an engine technician, so I’ll have to ask Ricky. But that seems reasonable........
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