The truth in the manual vs robotised manual obsession ?
Discussion
I've owned three manual Ferraris, have new Merc ( just a CLA 200) with a DCT and have driven an eGear Gallardo.
The Gallardo was very nice, I liked the slightly clunk as it changed (I could have improved that with time) and rather liked it.
I have a 360 manual but honestly I wanted an F1. I love the way it feels but I have noted many more issues with them compared to a manual. Also my garage is tiny and getting the car in and out slipping the clutch is hard enough and I feel F1 might have been much more difficult.
I don't toe and heel but rather roll my foot right to left. I started doing this in an Alfa Spider, do it in my Z3 and now the 360. I would probably be slower on a track but love the way it sounds and feels if I get it right. I'm new to it so have a way to go.
DCT I do like and think in a 458 I'd love it.
So for preference I think with the limited time I had in the Gallardo the feel of sequential/robotised is my preference followed by manual and then DCT. However I really think it depends on the car.
I don't like slush box planetary torque converter boxes I've driven, not at all.
The Gallardo was very nice, I liked the slightly clunk as it changed (I could have improved that with time) and rather liked it.
I have a 360 manual but honestly I wanted an F1. I love the way it feels but I have noted many more issues with them compared to a manual. Also my garage is tiny and getting the car in and out slipping the clutch is hard enough and I feel F1 might have been much more difficult.
I don't toe and heel but rather roll my foot right to left. I started doing this in an Alfa Spider, do it in my Z3 and now the 360. I would probably be slower on a track but love the way it sounds and feels if I get it right. I'm new to it so have a way to go.
DCT I do like and think in a 458 I'd love it.
So for preference I think with the limited time I had in the Gallardo the feel of sequential/robotised is my preference followed by manual and then DCT. However I really think it depends on the car.
I don't like slush box planetary torque converter boxes I've driven, not at all.
I owned a manual F430 and a 2008 F1 (120ms shifts compared with the pre-2008 160ms shifts).
I found the standard F1 system to be outdated - for me it ruined the car. The manual was more engaging, rewarding, and overall more fun to use, and I could shift nearly as fast as the F1 system could.
For me the Scuderia Superfast 2 (60ms) system is the only F1 alternative to the manual 'box but I think that the manual still has it for road driving simply because it offers more enjoyment more of the time.
Another poster is along the same lines of thinking as I am: they were a point-in-time solution that was basically a transition solution to more advanced engineering that better met the requirements. They were a novelty at the time but now most feel out of date in a bad way.
I found the standard F1 system to be outdated - for me it ruined the car. The manual was more engaging, rewarding, and overall more fun to use, and I could shift nearly as fast as the F1 system could.
For me the Scuderia Superfast 2 (60ms) system is the only F1 alternative to the manual 'box but I think that the manual still has it for road driving simply because it offers more enjoyment more of the time.
Another poster is along the same lines of thinking as I am: they were a point-in-time solution that was basically a transition solution to more advanced engineering that better met the requirements. They were a novelty at the time but now most feel out of date in a bad way.
I drove manuals for 30 years ,sometimes going to great lengths to secure a manual when few were available .
I recently went Dsg and don’t miss having a manual in any way shape or form .
There is frankly a lot of crap written about this stuff ,just buy the box you enjoy and drive it .
The constant need to belittle dsg by those who perceive themselves as true drivers is tedious and the sign of a d
head .
I recently went Dsg and don’t miss having a manual in any way shape or form .
There is frankly a lot of crap written about this stuff ,just buy the box you enjoy and drive it .
The constant need to belittle dsg by those who perceive themselves as true drivers is tedious and the sign of a d
head .I find DSG/PDK gearboxes hugely frustrating. On the move they are fine. But pulling away from a t-junction, parking, doing a three point turn is a hugely embarrassing experience for me. I can't control the car the way I can a manual.
On the move I'm happy with a DSG/PDK but the frustration I feel at low speed outweighs the benefits on the move.
But I am one of those people who will come off the brakes coming to a standstill to avoid that dip/nod.
On the move I'm happy with a DSG/PDK but the frustration I feel at low speed outweighs the benefits on the move.
But I am one of those people who will come off the brakes coming to a standstill to avoid that dip/nod.
Gunso said:
I find DSG/PDK gearboxes hugely frustrating. On the move they are fine. But pulling away from a t-junction, parking, doing a three point turn is a hugely embarrassing experience for me. I can't control the car the way I can a manual.
On the move I'm happy with a DSG/PDK but the frustration I feel at low speed outweighs the benefits on the move.
But I am one of those people who will come off the brakes coming to a standstill to avoid that dip/nod.
If you find DCTs awkward at low speed, you ought to try a robotised manual! On the move I'm happy with a DSG/PDK but the frustration I feel at low speed outweighs the benefits on the move.
But I am one of those people who will come off the brakes coming to a standstill to avoid that dip/nod.
Been out today for a drive in my 599 with its "robotised manual" gearbox and I'd forgotten what a delight it is to drive (most of my Ferrari mileage is in my 458 with dsg box). I have to agree with the poster above who said that a load of c**p is written about this stuff. Drive what you like and what suits you.
willy wombat said:
Been out today for a drive in my 599 with its "robotised manual" gearbox and I'd forgotten what a delight it is to drive (most of my Ferrari mileage is in my 458 with dsg box). I have to agree with the poster above who said that a load of c**p is written about this stuff. Drive what you like and what suits you.
Absolutely agree with this. We've a 360 F1 with a Challenge Stradale TCU and out in the wild it's utterly sublime. It's still a pretty raw experience!Kyodo said:
willy wombat said:
Been out today for a drive in my 599 with its "robotised manual" gearbox and I'd forgotten what a delight it is to drive (most of my Ferrari mileage is in my 458 with dsg box). I have to agree with the poster above who said that a load of c**p is written about this stuff. Drive what you like and what suits you.
Absolutely agree with this. We've a 360 F1 with a Challenge Stradale TCU and out in the wild it's utterly sublime. It's still a pretty raw experience!thecook101 said:
+1 Totally depends on what you're looking for. If fast and seamless is right for that moment then it's hard to beat DSG, but I've never been anything but thrilled with the rawness of the F1 box in my F430, and likewise the non-syncromesh double declutching experience when out in my 1930 Rolls. To say one is better than the other in any context other than personal preference ignores the joys of variety, time and place.
Exactly, all good for different reasons 
I drove 171 miles in a DSG equipped car to collect my eGear equipped car, which I then drove back. One was a smooth, cosseted, and surgically efficient experience, the other was raw, alive, neck snapping and at times brutal experience. I preferred the journey home. Way more fun. Just my opinion.
Superleg48 said:
I drove 171 miles in a DSG equipped car to collect my eGear equipped car, which I then drove back. One was a smooth, cosseted, and surgically efficient experience, the other was raw, alive, neck snapping and at times brutal experience. I preferred the journey home. Way more fun. Just my opinion.
^Hence my point about the definition of "better" in another thread...
I don't what type of gearbox he's got, but most mornings I encounter a guy in a modern 911 pulling away from a junction in my village onto the dual carriageway. As he accelerates hard into the distance you can hear the almost seamless sequence gear changes by the changing engine note and I have to say it sounds absolutely wănk.
IMO in a supercar gear changes should sound like the ones in the intro to Cannonball Run....
IMO in a supercar gear changes should sound like the ones in the intro to Cannonball Run....
JuniorD said:
I don't what type of gearbox he's got, but most mornings I encounter a guy in a modern 911 pulling away from a junction in my village onto the dual carriageway. As he accelerates hard into the distance you can hear the almost seamless sequence gear changes by the changing engine note and I have to say it sounds absolutely w?nk.
IMO in a supercar gear changes should sound like the ones in the intro to Cannonball Run....
It's a PDK (aka a dual clutch box), you may not like the sound, but they're bloody good.IMO in a supercar gear changes should sound like the ones in the intro to Cannonball Run....
franki68 said:
The constant need to belittle dsg by those who perceive themselves as true drivers is tedious and the sign of a dhead .
They also reveal themselves to be world-class bullshead .tters by talking about such bks as heel/toeing in cars that have pedal setups that would never allow heel toe - this means almost 100% of road-going "supercars". If someone in a 430 tells you they've bought a manual because they like to heel/toe then they are either a liar or have fking clownshoes!Order66 said:
They also reveal themselves to be world-class bullstters by talking about such bks as heel/toeing in cars that have pedal setups that would never allow heel toe - this means almost 100% of road-going "supercars". If someone in a 430 tells you they've bought a manual because they like to heel/toe then they are either a liar or have fking clownshoes!
Really? I may be a d***head but I know of at least 3 cars where you (sorry, I) can heel and toe. On the Gallardo I had to adjust the brake-pedal height with the OEM adjuster at the top of the pedal box. On the 360 and Murci, they were fine out the box. tters by talking about such bks as heel/toeing in cars that have pedal setups that would never allow heel toe - this means almost 100% of road-going "supercars". If someone in a 430 tells you they've bought a manual because they like to heel/toe then they are either a liar or have fking clownshoes!Interesting thread.
The motor car has, traditionally, been a mechanical beast that requires co-ordination of ears, hands, feet and sight. Back in the early days of motoring the brave driver had to negotiate the ruts in the road, horses and small children playing with a hoop and a stick whilst leaning off the mixture, advancing the timing and pumping the fuel. Things have got very simple recently
"Manual or auto sir?" a salesman/person (not wishing to be labelled a sexist in these FAR TOO pc times) would ask. If you drove a rep-mobile around a city then an auto would be more suitable and if you drove enthusiastically or wished to stay awake then a manual would be more beneficial. Has that changed?...really?
I spent twenty years in the Motor Trade and was selling when CVT and DSG became available. I drove an Audi TT 3.2V6 with DSG from Chelmsford to Hitchin along the back roads; so got to know the car and 'box pretty well. Yes it was quicker than manual changing and, to be fair, not uncomfortable in its change but by the time I had arrived I ached for a manual again.
I guess it is a personal choice but it should be a choice that is available. eg. Alfa 4C, Alpine A110, both off my shopping list...Porsche 982- sorry 718, Spyder, Lotus Exige 350 Sport or Evora 410 Sport on my list.
Carspeth, having heard about all your fluffed gearchanges, should I be concerned about viewing your Brooke next week? Please get in touch as I should love to hear from you. I met you at the Beulieu Supercar Showdown in 2013.
Richard
The motor car has, traditionally, been a mechanical beast that requires co-ordination of ears, hands, feet and sight. Back in the early days of motoring the brave driver had to negotiate the ruts in the road, horses and small children playing with a hoop and a stick whilst leaning off the mixture, advancing the timing and pumping the fuel. Things have got very simple recently
"Manual or auto sir?" a salesman/person (not wishing to be labelled a sexist in these FAR TOO pc times) would ask. If you drove a rep-mobile around a city then an auto would be more suitable and if you drove enthusiastically or wished to stay awake then a manual would be more beneficial. Has that changed?...really?
I spent twenty years in the Motor Trade and was selling when CVT and DSG became available. I drove an Audi TT 3.2V6 with DSG from Chelmsford to Hitchin along the back roads; so got to know the car and 'box pretty well. Yes it was quicker than manual changing and, to be fair, not uncomfortable in its change but by the time I had arrived I ached for a manual again.
I guess it is a personal choice but it should be a choice that is available. eg. Alfa 4C, Alpine A110, both off my shopping list...Porsche 982- sorry 718, Spyder, Lotus Exige 350 Sport or Evora 410 Sport on my list.
Carspeth, having heard about all your fluffed gearchanges, should I be concerned about viewing your Brooke next week? Please get in touch as I should love to hear from you. I met you at the Beulieu Supercar Showdown in 2013.
Richard
Edited by Richmbutler on Wednesday 25th December 20:09
Would I be right in saying supercar brands use of 'autos' (encompassing all types) is in a quest for lower 0-60mph times, improved economy (even though historically, autos were more thirsty) and larger and more powerful engines that simply wouldn't work with a manual transmission? - last point broadly speaking.
There's also the fact supercars have become daily drivers, something that would be alien to supercar drivers not that long ago?
There's also the fact supercars have become daily drivers, something that would be alien to supercar drivers not that long ago?
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