What is "Raw"?
Discussion
"Raw" has been mentioned a few times in various posts and topics when comparing Macs with other marques. Sometimes used in a way to describe Macs as boring / unengaging, but conversely, as being refined / technologically advanced. What is raw? Is it subjective? Is it a good thing, or a bad thing? It's such a broad term, I’m not sure it helps.
I've had a Jaguar XKR-S in the past, which I would say was very fast, fun to drive and sounded filthy, but also unforgiving and ready to stick you in a hedge at the first sign of dampness. For me, that car was raw – seat of your pants – sphincter exercising - dangerous.
I've had a Jaguar XKR-S in the past, which I would say was very fast, fun to drive and sounded filthy, but also unforgiving and ready to stick you in a hedge at the first sign of dampness. For me, that car was raw – seat of your pants – sphincter exercising - dangerous.
I'd say there are clear differences between my 360 and 650 - although obviously I've barely scratched the surface of the 650 - but when I used it, I'd say it was a mix of these things:
Noise certainly makes a difference - and older NA cars are generally louder.
The Ferrari feels very analogue compared to the McLaren. When I'm screaming down a twisty road in the 360 it feels like I'm going as fast as I possibly could down that road. The car isn't twitchy or difficult to control - but at the same time it feels like : go faster, and you will crash.
In my (very!) brief McLaren blast, I felt like I was going very fast - but in the McLaren it felt like I wasn't even close to what it could do. Absolutely not boring - just very very capable. I do think it's interesting that it felt different to the passenger too - it really impressed me that it did. It just shows how good the car is on a twisty road.
I'm looking forward to using the 650 on the twisty road I use on the commute to work. I did on the second test drive and it was very good - with a bit more time to get used to it, I think it will be amazing.
I don't believe the McLaren lacks excitement - I did feel like my 996 turbo did years ago. But with the McLaren, it's different - it's more like it's saying to me : Er, no - you need to try a lot harder than that!
Whether it will ever capture what an 18 year old Ferrari has, I don't know. But it's all relative - people with Ferrari's much older than mine would consider my 360 - with its PAS, ABS, traction control etc - only one step away from a family car and far too sanitised!
Noise certainly makes a difference - and older NA cars are generally louder.
The Ferrari feels very analogue compared to the McLaren. When I'm screaming down a twisty road in the 360 it feels like I'm going as fast as I possibly could down that road. The car isn't twitchy or difficult to control - but at the same time it feels like : go faster, and you will crash.
In my (very!) brief McLaren blast, I felt like I was going very fast - but in the McLaren it felt like I wasn't even close to what it could do. Absolutely not boring - just very very capable. I do think it's interesting that it felt different to the passenger too - it really impressed me that it did. It just shows how good the car is on a twisty road.
I'm looking forward to using the 650 on the twisty road I use on the commute to work. I did on the second test drive and it was very good - with a bit more time to get used to it, I think it will be amazing.
I don't believe the McLaren lacks excitement - I did feel like my 996 turbo did years ago. But with the McLaren, it's different - it's more like it's saying to me : Er, no - you need to try a lot harder than that!
Whether it will ever capture what an 18 year old Ferrari has, I don't know. But it's all relative - people with Ferrari's much older than mine would consider my 360 - with its PAS, ABS, traction control etc - only one step away from a family car and far too sanitised!
Edited by davek_964 on Sunday 25th August 12:39
Larry5.2 said:
Raw is when you get direct feedback from the steering, the tyres, engine sound etc without it being processed by driver aids including power-steering, traction and stability control, abs etc. Obviously there are different levels of driver aids and hence different levels of rawness.
+1LTs are the rawest (english?) McLarens.
Still safe to drive, aids are all there, but driving is less filtered, steering wheel is busy in hands, steering rack more direct, exhaust almost annoyngly loud (god bless top end exhausts on my LT!), no insulation, exposed carbon tub, hearing of stones hitting the underfloor (sob!), stiffer ride, etc etc.
That is raw to me!
Edited by RBT0 on Sunday 25th August 13:32
Ex Boy Racer said:
Sex Pistols - raw. Genesis - not.
Thats perhaps the best comparison.Out yesterday for a blast and started off with one of my old skool playlists with prodigy, chemical brothers and the like....was great for half an hour but then stuck on the easier playlists as i couldn't be bothered with it any more!
Raw is IMO is only good for a little while in a car; if its noisy and uncomfortable after an hour what's the point?
On another forum a poster asked advice taking his 458 from down south upto a wedding around Inverness as he had a sports exhaust and carbon backed sport seats...game is a bogey if that is a genuine consideration of wether to use a car for a long trip.
Longest journey i have done in the Mac is around 4.5 hrs which we did non stop as it was soooo comfy...normal electric heated seats in full Alcantara which grip you unbelievably...with roof down at 85mph you can chat with passenger or take a phone call. It has a sports exhaust that's plenty loud but not stupid like a Capristo.
Due to the 'haunted' suspension, it goes over bumps / drains almost like they are not there, corners like nothing i have owned before and regards pace it is quite literally its one of the quickest cars on the road.
In my head the replacement was either a Mantis green 675LT spider or 720 spider in a year or so...now don't feel as though i could move to a 675 ( which is good financially! )
I genuinely don't feel like i need raw in my life if it removes any of the above....but maybe I'm getting on a bit...
I’ve enjoyed 2 hr round trip journeys with my 600LT on A/B roads, however the combo motorway and speed limit kills me, too much booming and exhaust noise (what I wanted, indeed it’s not a car intended to be used on motorways! ).
So raw is fine, as long as the car is used for fun and special occasions.
So raw is fine, as long as the car is used for fun and special occasions.
My Lotus Exige 430 Cup is Raw !!!
430 Bhp In 1,054 kg, my 570s weighs 1,400 kg , but both have similar tyre size and official 0-60mph, but the Lotus is a go cart in comparison
In reality the Mac is far faster but:
A Lotus lets you know exactly what’s going on, makes a proper noise that a McLaren would die for and has a proper gearbox
It’s quicker on smaller circuits than my Mac or probably any Mac but struggles to get excepted by the static noise police unfortunately. It has all the Carbon fibre you need and is pretty minimalist for a proper car ( sorry Caterhams)
But Raw is not always good, and my Mac for me is more enjoyable 75% of the time.
430 Bhp In 1,054 kg, my 570s weighs 1,400 kg , but both have similar tyre size and official 0-60mph, but the Lotus is a go cart in comparison
In reality the Mac is far faster but:
A Lotus lets you know exactly what’s going on, makes a proper noise that a McLaren would die for and has a proper gearbox
It’s quicker on smaller circuits than my Mac or probably any Mac but struggles to get excepted by the static noise police unfortunately. It has all the Carbon fibre you need and is pretty minimalist for a proper car ( sorry Caterhams)
But Raw is not always good, and my Mac for me is more enjoyable 75% of the time.
Rocketreid said:
But Raw is not always good, and my Mac for me is more enjoyable 75% of the time.
Agreed, careful what you wish for.I had a very highly modded Exige S1 (350bhp, 750kg, plus LOTS of mods). It was fun in short doses, but got tiresome after an hour or so. I needed ear plugs for any journey exceeding 30 mins, and it was super hot inside the cabin in all weathers. Simply too "raw".
My 720S on the other hand can cross a continent in comfort, yet also easily beat my old modded Exige around any sensible track. However, I do desire the 7xxLT. Just because
LotusJas said:
Agreed, careful what you wish for.
I had a very highly modded Exige S1 (350bhp, 750kg, plus LOTS of mods). It was fun in short doses, but got tiresome after an hour or so. I needed ear plugs for any journey exceeding 30 mins, and it was super hot inside the cabin in all weathers. Simply too "raw".
My 720S on the other hand can cross a continent in comfort, yet also easily beat my old modded Exige around any sensible track. However, I do desire the 7xxLT. Just because
I agree. I see a difference between raw and capable, and just plain raw. I had a very highly modded Exige S1 (350bhp, 750kg, plus LOTS of mods). It was fun in short doses, but got tiresome after an hour or so. I needed ear plugs for any journey exceeding 30 mins, and it was super hot inside the cabin in all weathers. Simply too "raw".
My 720S on the other hand can cross a continent in comfort, yet also easily beat my old modded Exige around any sensible track. However, I do desire the 7xxLT. Just because
For example, I also have access to an Atom 3.5R. It makes the Exiges seem tame - just not having a windshield. But somehow it still inspires confidence - now that they've got the weight balance right. OTOH my V12 Vantage really requires caution in any situation.
The 650s, though. Yes, you can spin the wheels. But its like a big Atom with AC - and a wind shield.
There is a need perhaps to differentiate raw from crude where raw means unfiltered rather than lacking in engineering application. 964RS an example of unfiltered but nevertheless carefully considered engineering would be raw in my book. McLaren not so. Refined. Yes, much of it well engineered though let down by the touch screen interface which makes simple tasks unnecessarily complicated.
There is at least one more category for exquisite attention to detail combined with an entirely visceral and immersive experience. Not many contenders though.
There is at least one more category for exquisite attention to detail combined with an entirely visceral and immersive experience. Not many contenders though.
raw can be as simple as a level of traction control imo
one of the reasons I dislike the f12 tdf is people love it for the 'raw' wild characteristics, it's not easy to drive, spins it's wheels in 4th etc etc
the reality is that a massive factor in this is simply the traction control has been edited to not intrude and allow this (not saying that it's an identical car to a standard tdf aside from this)
i'm fairly confident you could take a standard f12, remove traction control entirely, stick a louder exhaust on and remove some soundproofing then call it the f12 RAW and it'd of been praised and sold out quickly
one of the reasons I dislike the f12 tdf is people love it for the 'raw' wild characteristics, it's not easy to drive, spins it's wheels in 4th etc etc
the reality is that a massive factor in this is simply the traction control has been edited to not intrude and allow this (not saying that it's an identical car to a standard tdf aside from this)
i'm fairly confident you could take a standard f12, remove traction control entirely, stick a louder exhaust on and remove some soundproofing then call it the f12 RAW and it'd of been praised and sold out quickly
WCZ said:
raw can be as simple as a level of traction control imo
one of the reasons I dislike the f12 tdf is people love it for the 'raw' wild characteristics, it's not easy to drive, spins it's wheels in 4th etc etc
the reality is that a massive factor in this is simply the traction control has been edited to not intrude and allow this (not saying that it's an identical car to a standard tdf aside from this)
i'm fairly confident you could take a standard f12, remove traction control entirely, stick a louder exhaust on and remove some soundproofing then call it the f12 RAW and it'd of been praised and sold out quickly
That's the problem with modern supercars, unless they have electronic aids, most of us mere mortals would kill ourselves...one of the reasons I dislike the f12 tdf is people love it for the 'raw' wild characteristics, it's not easy to drive, spins it's wheels in 4th etc etc
the reality is that a massive factor in this is simply the traction control has been edited to not intrude and allow this (not saying that it's an identical car to a standard tdf aside from this)
i'm fairly confident you could take a standard f12, remove traction control entirely, stick a louder exhaust on and remove some soundproofing then call it the f12 RAW and it'd of been praised and sold out quickly
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