Older supercars, warranties and engine / gearbox failures

[360430Lover]

grumpynuts said:

I think some folk get hung up on having a warranty on an expensive sports car. Buy the best you can afford, then get a thorough service done so you know of any issues.The next thing is to put aside an amount of cash each year for maintenance and get it serviced each year. The best way to keep a high end sports car reliable is to use the thing regularly and stop fretting about mileage.
I bought a 911 at 11 years old with no warranty, i added 60k miles in 10 years with zero issues,just expected maintence and age related small component failures.The biggest thing was the exhaust boxes rotted out,but i knew it was coming.
I had a great time with the car and am sure the next owner has bought a good,well used but well maintained car.
If i had fancied a Ferrari,I'd have followed the same plan, maintainnit well but use the thing,they love it and are more reliable.Garage queens give problems,regularly used ones don't.

911 engines are - by sheer dint of how many there are - pretty solid (outside of the known weaknesses which anyone should be clear eyed about) AND can be rebuilt at half if not a third of the money a Ferrari build project is going to set anyone back. Getting a 991 block wouldn't be hard. Finding a Ferrari V8 block in good condition would be. And then older Ferrari parts on top of that..

However, 991s and Ferrari 360s are similar ish money.. So you get the reason why someone might be more hesitant about buying an old Ferrari. And by the way, the way these older V8s are priced currently is a complete joke. These cars sit and sit and sit because the vast majority are £10k overs and everyone knows it. God only knows who is paying £65-75k for an F1 360 (or why they ever would) but that's the joy of the current market.

You're right re servicing, of course. But it's not uncommon to see service gaps in Ferrari ownership. Oil analysis is definitely worth doing with these cars for various reasons. So is regular checking of the dicky Ferrari manifolds (or just take them out altogether).

[360430Lover]

grumpynuts said:

I think some folk get hung up on having a warranty on an expensive sports car. Buy the best you can afford, then get a thorough service done so you know of any issues.The next thing is to put aside an amount of cash each year for maintenance and get it serviced each year. The best way to keep a high end sports car reliable is to use the thing regularly and stop fretting about mileage.
I bought a 911 at 11 years old with no warranty, i added 60k miles in 10 years with zero issues,just expected maintence and age related small component failures.The biggest thing was the exhaust boxes rotted out,but i knew it was coming.
I had a great time with the car and am sure the next owner has bought a good,well used but well maintained car.
If i had fancied a Ferrari,I'd have followed the same plan, maintainnit well but use the thing,they love it and are more reliable.Garage queens give problems,regularly used ones don't.

Oh and btw there's far more chance of engine failure in a car that is driven close or at redline with regularity. Cars that sit spring other kinds of issues.

[andyr]

To the OP. I have a 458 and feel the same as you do.

You can get a warranty from Warranty Wise. They seem pretty good. Just over 3k for 2 years. Any one claim capped at 10k and would cover the ICE system also.

Power15 covers engine, gearbox and some suspension parts ( I’ve claimed for these )

A warranty is like any insurance product. It depends on your appetite for risk.

For those of you who say “put it in a fund” and “I’ve never needed a warranty”. Sure. But then do you drive your car on third party insurance ? I suspect not - you have fullly comp insurance. But why not save some money and have basic car insurance - you’ll never be in an accident, right ?

[360430Lover]

andyr said:

To the OP. I have a 458 and feel the same as you do.

You can get a warranty from Warranty Wise. They seem pretty good. Just over 3k for 2 years. Any one claim capped at 10k and would cover the ICE system also.

Power15 covers engine, gearbox and some suspension parts ( I’ve claimed for these )

A warranty is like any insurance product. It depends on your appetite for risk.

For those of you who say “put it in a fund” and “I’ve never needed a warranty”. Sure. But then do you drive your car on third party insurance ? I suspect not - you have fullly comp insurance. But why not save some money and have basic car insurance - you’ll never be in an accident, right ?

Exactly. Sadly, Warranty Wise won't do cars older than about 10, maybe 12 years old. So that's all 360s and 430s out of the picture there. And yes if I was fortunate enough to reach 458 levels one day, I'd buy one from Ferrari.

I can only assume most other owners have that 40 grand emergency pot on standby

[MDL111]

andyr said:

To the OP. I have a 458 and feel the same as you do.

You can get a warranty from Warranty Wise. They seem pretty good. Just over 3k for 2 years. Any one claim capped at 10k and would cover the ICE system also.

Power15 covers engine, gearbox and some suspension parts ( I’ve claimed for these )

A warranty is like any insurance product. It depends on your appetite for risk.

For those of you who say “put it in a fund” and “I’ve never needed a warranty”. Sure. But then do you drive your car on third party insurance ? I suspect not - you have fullly comp insurance. But why not save some money and have basic car insurance - you’ll never be in an accident, right ?

I switched the FF to third-party about 3-4 years ago as fully comp cost 6.5k a year with a 10k deductible - not worth it to me

Edit: I think that was the same year I decided to stop renewing the warranty

[360430Lover]

MDL111 said:

I switched the FF to third-party about 3-4 years ago as fully comp cost 6.5k a year with a 10k deductible - not worth it to me

Edit: I think that was the same year I decided to stop renewing the warranty

Jesus. How old are you? 12?

My old £72k F430 was only around £600 full comp and that's with a write off in the last 5 years.. FFs are just over £100k aren't they?

[MDL111]

360430Lover said:

MDL111 said:

I switched the FF to third-party about 3-4 years ago as fully comp cost 6.5k a year with a 10k deductible - not worth it to me

Edit: I think that was the same year I decided to stop renewing the warranty

Jesus. How old are you? 12?

My old £72k F430 was only around £600 full comp and that's with a write off in the last 5 years.. FFs are just over £100k aren't they?

On the FF it is about the new price, which is 330k - I tried to argue it is only worth 100k max, but no luck - so third party only it was from then onwards (c. 400 Euros from memory) - at the time I said f... it, I am not paying 10% of the value of the car every year for insurance and warranty.

I think it is just me being lazy to be honest.
my Clio is about 1,200 Euros for third party and theft, my old G63 about 2,700 for fully comp my 997 911 about 2,500 for fully comp (has moved less than 1k km last year) from memory. The Clio has not moved in 2 years - does not matter, nearly puked when I saw the renewal leaving my account a few months ago. Had forgotten the car is still insured...

I think I am with a really expensive insurance company (Allianz) and they are just screwing me. Of course so far I was too lazy to deal with switching insurance (well done...), so now I will just sell some of the cars instead due to not using them (better pay of some of my mortgage instead of paying for servicing and insurance for something I do not use regularly) - at least I switched the FF to third party and sent them an email about a week ago that I want to switch some more cars to third party (no reply yet).

Insurance in the UK is really cheap so not entirely comparable.

[MDL111]

I looked up the cost for a replacement engine a couple of days ago - a refurbished exchange engine for the FF is c. 30k from Eurospares (and a new one c. 73k) - the refurbished one does not sound so bad imo. I looked it up as a replacement engine for the 997 is supposedly 100k or thereabouts, which I thought is ridiculous. So for the 911 I would get a warranty if there was a comprehensive one on offer (Porsche does one for cars of that age in Germany at 1,800 Euros, but the model unfortunately does not qualify / only for the "standard" 996/997 engines).
So I have changed my mind a little from my previous statement, esp in terms of saleability of a car, a decent warranty for call it 2-3k would be something I would consider.

[360430Lover]

MDL111 said:

I looked up the cost for a replacement engine a couple of days ago - a refurbished exchange engine for the FF is c. 30k from Eurospares (and a new one c. 73k) - the refurbished one does not sound so bad imo. I looked it up as a replacement engine for the 997 is supposedly 100k or thereabouts, which I thought is ridiculous. So for the 911 I would get a warranty if there was a comprehensive one on offer (Porsche does one for cars of that age in Germany at 1,800 Euros, but the model unfortunately does not qualify / only for the "standard" 996/997 engines).
So I have changed my mind a little from my previous statement, esp in terms of saleability of a car, a decent warranty for call it 2-3k would be something I would consider.

Yup. Plus specialist labour at least £100ph..

Full rebuilds can be hefty in labour. Engine swaps will add up too.

Edited by 360430Lover on Tuesday 6th May 22:32

[andyr]

The was a post below about WW not covering older cars.

They are happy to cover my 12 year old 458 for another 3 years. When I questioned them about the age of the car they said they had “classic” cover now.

So the OP might want to call them to check.

They are pretty negotiable on the price.

[MDL111]

360430Lover said:

Yup. Plus specialist labour at least £100ph..

Full rebuilds can be hefty in labour. Engine swaps will add up too.

Edited by 360430Lover on Tuesday 6th May 22:32

yeah labour rates have become ridiculous. I remember the days when I thought Ferrari was ridiculous charging c. 160 Euros plus VAT. Nowadays they (incl Mercedes) all seem to charge 300+ Euros + VAT and independent garages (and I don't mean specialists, just the non-brand affiliated garages) here are at c. 130+ plus VAT.

The increase in rates is a lot more than just inflation over the last c. 7-10 years - not sure what happened there.

[360430Lover]

andyr said:

The was a post below about WW not covering older cars.

They are happy to cover my 12 year old 458 for another 3 years. When I questioned them about the age of the car they said they had “classic” cover now.

So the OP might want to call them to check.

They are pretty negotiable on the price.

Just checked. 15 years old max.

[ex-devonpaul]

andyr said:

For those of you who say “put it in a fund” and “I’ve never needed a warranty”. Sure. But then do you drive your car on third party insurance ? I suspect not - you have fullly comp insurance. But why not save some money and have basic car insurance - you’ll never be in an accident, right ?

On the maser Comp insurance was cheaper than TPFT and only a tenner more than TPO, with a £400 excess. Unless you go to "specialist" insurers this seems pretty much the case once i got over 40. Might not be the same in another 10 years though

[murphyaj]

andyr said:

For those of you who say “put it in a fund” and “I’ve never needed a warranty”. Sure. But then do you drive your car on third party insurance ? I suspect not - you have fullly comp insurance. But why not save some money and have basic car insurance - you’ll never be in an accident, right ?

I'm not sure the two things you are comparing there are equivalent in terms of risk. Your logic is sound in terms of the two having a similar cost/benefit analysis, I just think you are glossing over some very important differences between the two.

Max liability for 3rd party is the full cost of the car, which for a used supercar is anywhere from £65k to over £200k depending on where you sit on the spectrum. Write offs either through fault, being hit by an uninsured 3rd party, or cases where liability can't be proven are rare, but far from unheard of. There is therefore a reasonable risk of losing the full value of your car.

Max liability for running without warranty is, in theory, the full value of the car, but in reality that's vanishingly unlikely. I've seen supercars written off by accident, but do any really become worthless because of the cost of fixing mechanical failure? Worst realistic case scenario is a new engine or gearbox, which will be a hefty 5 figure bill, but a lot less than a new car. I've seen the bill for a complete engine rebuild for a McLaren 650S and it was less than £15k I believe. And remember a lot of used warranties come with a claim limit, which is often not all that high. The Thorney Motorsport McLaren warranty is considered the best out there, and it has a 10k claim limit and according to them they have never had a single failure cost more than that.

Add to that the fact that the cost of a warranty is likely at least 10x the difference between 3rd party and fully comp insurance, usually more like 50x the difference based on my experience, and the two really aren't equivalent in terms of cost/benefit.

Edited by murphyaj on Wednesday 7th May 10:33

[360430Lover]

murphyaj said:

I'm not sure the two things you are comparing there are equivalent in terms of risk. Your logic is sound in terms of the two having a similar cost/benefit analysis, I just think you are glossing over some very important differences between the two.

Max liability for 3rd party is the full cost of the car, which for a used supercar is anywhere from £65k to over £200k depending on where you sit on the spectrum. Write offs either through fault, being hit by an uninsured 3rd party, or cases where liability can't be proven are rare, but far from unheard of. There is therefore a reasonable risk of losing the full value of your car.

Max liability for running without warranty is, in theory, the full value of the car, but in reality that's vanishingly unlikely. I've seen supercars written off by accident, but do any really become worthless because of the cost of fixing mechanical failure? Worst realistic case scenario is a new engine or gearbox, which will be a hefty 5 figure bill, but a lot less than a new car. I've seen the bill for a complete engine rebuild for a McLaren 650S and it was less than £15k I believe. And remember a lot of used warranties come with a claim limit, which is often not all that high. The Thorney Motorsport McLaren warranty is considered the best out there, and it has a 10k claim limit and according to them they have never had a single failure cost more than that.

Add to that the fact that the cost of a warranty is often 10x the difference between 3rd party and fully comp insurance and the two really aren't equivalent in terms of cost/benefit.

Call a few specialist engineering shops and you might find that engine failures are more likely than you might imagine... It has to be said that most are cars that are used hard. Raced, tracked or otherwise.

The F430 4.3 has seen con rod failure and bearing failure. So that's new block time. If you can even find one.. £10k - I think - is a "on a good day" estimation. The average failure rebuild will be around £15 - 25k. I've seen some of the Thorney videos on McLaren rebuilds (most due to over tuning) and I can't remember exactly the amounts quoted. Labour stacks up and that can't be ignored. McLaren changed 720 piston rod design mid production so that's a window into those cars and failures seen there. I guess tuning turbo cars is so easy to do that the manufacturers have to react to that in some capacity.

It's true though that if your warranty only covers £2-5k claim limit, it's a debate as to whether it's worthwhile.

And by God, I'd always go fully comp in terms of regular insurance. Anything can and will happen out there!

Edited by 360430Lover on Wednesday 7th May 11:14

[MingtheMerciless]

Insurance is always a burden until you need it.

I am just going to say I have been very glad to have had my expensive Ferrari extended warranty with my 458. Twice. I may be an outlier, but when something goes wrong, the cost, even of just investigation of something not obvious, can reach five figures with surprising rapidity.

[murphyaj]

360430Lover said:

murphyaj said:

I'm not sure the two things you are comparing there are equivalent in terms of risk. Your logic is sound in terms of the two having a similar cost/benefit analysis, I just think you are glossing over some very important differences between the two.

Max liability for 3rd party is the full cost of the car, which for a used supercar is anywhere from £65k to over £200k depending on where you sit on the spectrum. Write offs either through fault, being hit by an uninsured 3rd party, or cases where liability can't be proven are rare, but far from unheard of. There is therefore a reasonable risk of losing the full value of your car.

Max liability for running without warranty is, in theory, the full value of the car, but in reality that's vanishingly unlikely. I've seen supercars written off by accident, but do any really become worthless because of the cost of fixing mechanical failure? Worst realistic case scenario is a new engine or gearbox, which will be a hefty 5 figure bill, but a lot less than a new car. I've seen the bill for a complete engine rebuild for a McLaren 650S and it was less than £15k I believe. And remember a lot of used warranties come with a claim limit, which is often not all that high. The Thorney Motorsport McLaren warranty is considered the best out there, and it has a 10k claim limit and according to them they have never had a single failure cost more than that.

Add to that the fact that the cost of a warranty is often 10x the difference between 3rd party and fully comp insurance and the two really aren't equivalent in terms of cost/benefit.

Call a few specialist engineering shops and you might find that engine failures are more likely than you might imagine... It has to be said that most are cars that are used hard. Raced, tracked or otherwise.

The F430 4.3 has seen con rod failure and bearing failure. So that's new block time. If you can even find one.. £10k - I think - is a "on a good day" estimation. The average failure rebuild will be around £15 - 25k. I've seen some of the Thorney videos on McLaren rebuilds (most due to over tuning) and I can't remember exactly the amounts quoted. Labour stacks up and that can't be ignored. McLaren changed 720 piston design mid production so that's a window into those cars and failures seen there. I guess tuning turbo cars is so easy to do that the manufacturers have to react to that in some capacity.

It's true though that if your warranty only covers £2-5k claim limit, it's a debate as to whether it's worthwhile.

And by God, I'd always go fully comp in terms of regular insurance. Anything can and will happen out there!

All valid points, and I'm not arguing that a warranty is never worth it, just that it's a very different animal to fully comp insurance.

True, finding hard data on things like engine failures is tricky. But even if the cost of an engine rebuild is about £20k, that is still a long, long way short of buying a new 720S. And an awful lot of the engine failure stories, certainly for McLaren, seem to come from the states where they just cannot bring themselves to leave the car alone. Anyone who thinks they can squeeze an extra 150 bhp from an already highly tuned engine without impacting reliability doesn't get to complain.

Personally I have run three Astons, a Ferrari and now a McLaren without warranty. At the time of writing I am better off having not had a warranty, and even if my gearbox went bang tomorrow and I had to fork out £15k for a rebuild I would still be better off overall compared to 10+ years of paying for warranties. But that doesn't mean I think anyone is wrong for getting one, maybe I have just been lucky. I am sure there are plenty of people out there who are better off overall having had one. Then there is the peace of mind that a warranty buys you, which is worth a lot to some people.

My current McLaren is the car I have come closest to getting a warranty on. The Thorney warranty in particular was pretty tempting, but was swayed by the fact they aren't particularly convenient for me to get to. The official McLaren warranty is pretty pricey if you haven't bought the car inside their network and at the time there wasn't a good 3rd option. Some people here have mentioned warrantywise, I might take a look at what they can offer.

As plenty of others have said, it's a personal decision based on your own attitute to risk, there is no right or wrong answer.

Edited by murphyaj on Wednesday 7th May 11:25

[MDL111]

I don't disagree on the premise that engine failures do happen, but you can't use mostly tracked cars (and definitely not raced cars) as comp. When talking about these you should think of them like a race car with hours on the engine until a rebuild is required - it is not a question of if, it is a question of when it will need to be rebuilt again (and those will often be done preventative to ensure it does not blow up).
And most warranties will have some kind of exclusion wording relating to that.
My 430 Challenge cost a lot every time it went in for prep and that was without any significant stuff, just making sure everything performs as well as it can. And I did not race that, just a few track days per year.
On a "normally" driven road car engine failure will be a very rare occurrence in % of total number of cars.

[360430Lover]

MDL111 said:

I don't disagree on the premise that engine failures do happen, but you can't use mostly tracked cars (and definitely not raced cars) as comp. When talking about these you should think of them like a race car with hours on the engine until a rebuild is required - it is not a question of if, it is a question of when it will need to be rebuilt again (and those will often be done preventative to ensure it does not blow up).
And most warranties will have some kind of exclusion wording relating to that.
My 430 Challenge cost a lot every time it went in for prep and that was without any significant stuff, just making sure everything performs as well as it can. And I did not race that, just a few track days per year.
On a "normally" driven road car engine failure will be a very rare occurrence in % of total number of cars.

Agree. But some of us don't want to be the anomaly.

And if there's enough of those people across all cars (that apparently don't fail very often..), why isn't there a warranty package at £2-3kpa (not small money) out there?

As little as 500 supercar drivers paying £2.5k for an engine / gearbox warranty is £1.25m in revenue for a warranty company. How many of those 500 cars will fail across a single year? If it's "very few" then a company will be quids in, right? Maybe there aren't 500 prospective buyers of these warranties. I have to imagine once the 458 / Huracan gets to 15 years old, there's going to be..

[360430Lover]

And here's the anomaly:

https://youtu.be/96zgQhaClhA?si=Avv2bozoYEWtG0rs