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Oil advice and recommendations here!

Oil advice and recommendations here!

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opieoilman

Original Poster:

4,086 posts

160 months

Wednesday 15th September 2004
quotequote all
MGBV8 said:
Guy,

What UCL do you recommend?

With the older engines 20W/50 was recommended but with newer more stable oils I assume 15/40 now gives same protection and better on start up.


The best UCL is two stroke motor oil, After all, 2-strokes in effect run entirely on UCL. So the best UCL s are 2-stroke oils! I always tell people to use a decent 2-stroke at 0.5% or 1%, because they are superior to the UCL s sold as UCL s if you get my drift. A litre of Super 2 Injector or Comp-2 will be better than a cupful of cheap mineral oil dyed red (no prizes for guessing the name) any day.

Vee engines (twins, to V8 s) benefit from UCL s because the upper walls of the RH cylinder bank, looking from the front, always run dry. Think about it!

Cheers

Guy.

GordonM

2 posts

159 months

Thursday 16th September 2004
quotequote all
Guy you're a legend, quality info transfer here.

Make: Peugeot
Model: 106 Rallye
Year: 1995
Engine size and type: 1294cc 8v Peugeot TU
Any significant modifications: None
Brand and viscosity currently used: Either Silkolene Pro S 5w40 or Pro S 10w50

In the road car I've been swapping between the two depending on winter or summer (5w in winter). The car isn't driven much but when it is it's driven hard. The little engine revs to 7000rpm and squeezes just over 100bhp out of 1294cc.

I also have exactly the same car used as a rally car, again with no engine mods as the class I run in doesn't allow it.

At one stage I did use the Castrol 10w60 in the road car thinking it would give better high temperature protection but I now realise that the 60 is too 'heavy' an oil and can cause too much drag (I read the Silkolene website and they recommended not using 60 weight oils and only 50 tops).

The rally car has got Pro S 10w50 in it and I was thinking of switching to the Pro S 5w40 for winter events. Clearly the rally car gets hammered from the word go (once the oil is warm of course).

I'm a big fan of Silkolene having done lots of research on POA/Ester based oils and they along with Redline or Motul would be the only oils I'd consider using. Forget Castrol, Shell, Duckhams, etc.

I also thought Mobil 1 was a hydrocracked mineral. Didn't realise it contained PAO's.

Can you advise on the best viscosity rating to be used in both the road and rally car please?

I've been contributing to a similar ongoing debate on the 106 Rallye forum and we've all narrowed it down to the best oils to use being only PAO/Ester based but there is still some discussion over which viscosity. The Peugeot handbook actually recommends either a semi-synth or fully synth. Semi-synth 10w40 or fully-synth 5w40. Either Total or Esso.

Would be great to know your opinions or those of the guru at Silkolene regarding the most suitable oil.

The Sliktran Syn 5 75w90 is excellent for the gearbox as well. Peugeot state 75w80 but the rally car 'box needs the 90 high temp protection.

Cheers


opieoilman

Original Poster:

4,086 posts

160 months

Thursday 16th September 2004
quotequote all
GordonM

There is not much I can add to that, you have done your homwork and the Silkolene in my opinion is the best.

I personally would use the 5w-40 for all year round in both cars and it is also a great compatition oil, the oil is thermally stable enough for anyhting the 106 can throw at it.

This will be of interst to you though.

It is a letter from a well know rally competitor, though Ihave removed the name, to the Guru at silkolene.

Thicker is not always better, it s the shear stability of the oil that s even more important than the viscosity when the engine is stressed over long periods


From: xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 07 May 2004 16:16
To: Rowland, John
Subject: Peugeot Cosworth - result!

John

Just a note to let you know I've heard from xxxxxxx - the rally driver with
the 300+bhp Peugeot-ice-racer-bodied hybrid with the normally asthmatic
Cosworth in the back.

Prior to you taking over, he used to have to strip the engine after every event
(normally 45 miles, he couldn't get it to last for a National event of 70-80
miles) and change the big end bearings every time. He'd been everywhere and
tried everything (including Halfords!), and couldn't solve his problem.

First off, he was really surprised when you asked to look at the bearings, as
no-one had ever asked! He was equally surprised by your recommendation to go
thinner, and also, I have to say, worried. He equated 'thickness' with 'better
protection'. I eventually persuaded him to try Pro S 5w/40, as you suggested,
but I couldn't get him down to the 0w/20.

He called me to say he'd stripped the engine this week, after it's FOURTH event
(approx 200 competitive miles!), and there isn't a mark on it. He is utterly
delighted, and asked me to pass on his thanks for all your help and expertise.
I'd also like to add my thanks to you. He is extremely influential in
competition circles, and is now going to tell the world and his wife what, and
who, sorted this problem.

Once again, many thanks
Regards
xxxxxxxx

Cheers

Guy.

GordonM

2 posts

159 months

Thursday 16th September 2004
quotequote all
Excellent Guy, thanks a lot.

Cheers for the quote as well. That'll be the very well known Herefordshire potato farmer called **** ****** then!

The 306 Cosworth is an awesome machine, did you ever see the AlfaFerrari he had before the 306 Cosworth? Full on is all I can say.

Until 2000 it was a 306 with a Metro 6R4 engine but now runs a 2.5 litre, 24 valve, V6 Cosworth DFV engine originally from an Opel German Touring Car which emits THAT absolutely awesome sound.

He's bloody quick in the forests as well. Beats all the WRC saddled boys as well. He was leading the Woodpecker Stages in Ludlow, Shrops a couple of weekends ago by 5-10 seconds until a diff went. Well ahead of a '00 spec Focus WRC, similar Accent WRC and Subaru.

If you're into you national/local rallying take a look at www.90right.com/index.php

As they say "tweaking the handbrake on British rallying". Excellent rally reports and fantastic photos. Great bunch of lads.

Cheers

bilton_d

601 posts

190 months

Friday 17th September 2004
quotequote all
my mate has a 16v Xr3i escort which has a leak from between the block and gearbox (O ring or Crankseal i guess) and he was thinking of just adding some Wynn's stop leak. Any reason for or against?
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opieoilman

Original Poster:

4,086 posts

160 months

Friday 17th September 2004
quotequote all
bilton_d said:
my mate has a 16v Xr3i escort which has a leak from between the block and gearbox (O ring or Crankseal i guess) and he was thinking of just adding some Wynn's stop leak. Any reason for or against?


The Wynn's will contain an agent that encourages seal to expand, however in my experience an oil leak is an oil leek and will not be fixed by an addative just hidden, best thing todo is replace the seals and save some money on the wynns, because if it is the seal it will only have to be replaced anyway.

Cheers

Guy.

MGBV8

160 posts

180 months

Saturday 18th September 2004
quotequote all
Guy,

Do you have any recommendations for oil fiters?

Slick 50 had a mention but any views on this!!
www.synlube.com/prod01.htm

opieoilman

Original Poster:

4,086 posts

160 months

Monday 20th September 2004
quotequote all
MGBV8 said:
Guy,

Do you have any recommendations for oil fiters?

Slick 50 had a mention but any views on this!!
www.synlube.com/prod01.htm


Must be honest, I have not seen that one, American again, though so probably very expensive.

Some of the products on there are quite usefull, However I have never been a believer of addatives.

Cheers

Guy.

MGBV8

160 posts

180 months

Monday 20th September 2004
quotequote all
Guy,

Also not a believer in additives but like to reasearch.

Anyway a bit more info

Base Oil: consists of five versions of PAO consisting of different molecular weight and number of carbon chains (not unusual in PAO/ester formulations), three different poylols (unnamed), POE, and four proprietary fluids (unnamed), for a total of 15 synthetic fluids.

Syn-Lube does not contain PE (PTE).

It also does not contain the recently developed methylacrylate "co-oligimers," which is a synthesized (not blended) mixture of PAO's and esters. These recently developed methylacrylate "co-oligimers," were developed in Germany!

Additives: There are Graphite, Moly, and PTFE,so matter how good base lube is, it needs a good boundary lube of either esters, ZDDP, Moly, or whatever to prevent met-to-metal contact under high loads to prevent surficial contact.

Apparently the colloidal Graphite is used to fill interfacial "voids," and the PTFE is to reduce gearing and chain noise, and Moly to act as boundary lube. PTFE and graphite!!!



kneegrow

220 posts

180 months

Monday 20th September 2004
quotequote all
Here's a thought, I am building a mini which I will be hoping to get about 140hp at the flywheel with a supercharger. Since I will be running straight cut gears, I will hopefully have less shear happening. However, the torque will be huge and the pressures on the gear teeth, immense. I was considering using Castrol R as I am aware of it's ultimate film strength. I view lubricants (as you mention) with a degree of suspicion. Without getting carried along on the bandwagon of innovation, what are the limits of this oil and is it a wise choice?

Where I have asked this question, I am always met with derogatory comments, it doesn't answer my question about how effective it is. (I am aware you have to change it regularly). As I am a postgrad chemist, I have a fair old insight into what the deal is. Can we have a good temporary digression into castor/mineral?

I am itching to talk to an expert about this, fire away!
stu

nick_f

9,031 posts

170 months

Tuesday 21st September 2004
quotequote all
opieoilman said:

moleamol said:
Make: Ford
Model: Mk1 Capri 3000GT XLR
Year: 1971
Engine size and type: 3 litre V6
Mileage: 74,000

Same as last time I asked *cough*



Dont worry mate, havent forgoten you. I spoke to a technical collegue of mine for this one as my records dont go back that far. It depends on what you want to use. Originally it would have been a mineral multigrade, if you want to continue using one go for around a 10w-40 grade making sure it is a good quality one. The other option is full synthetic, older engines tend not to like the modern thin synthetics however if you go for a thick one like a 15w-50 you will have no problems. He has recomended a particlular synthetic oil for your car, feel free to e-mail me and I will forward onto what the oil is and what costs.

Cheers

Guy.


Hello Guy,

Same engine, but I run a 290 cam and stretch to 7,000rpm. Only 8,000 miles on GTX Magnatec and no apparent issues, but I'd be grateful for your views.

The UCL idea sounds interesting, but I'd be concerned that it would reduce the effective RON of the fuel?

Nick.

opieoilman

Original Poster:

4,086 posts

160 months

Tuesday 21st September 2004
quotequote all
Nick,

The same rules apply for your engine. You can do a lot better than the Magnatec if you wish, the Silkolene Pro R 15w-50 is a good modern alternative to the traditional mineral. The Pro R is an ester based oil, esters assist the additive pack in a motor oil formulation because they are surface-active (electrostatically attracted to metal surfaces), so they help to reduce wear and friction.

They are fluid at very low temperatures and at high temperatures they are very chemically stable and have low volatility (don t evaporate away).

They also help to prevent hardening and cracking of oil seals at high temperatures.

The UCL is in such small quatities that it will not affect the ron of the fuel, if you do notice a difference a little octane improver will do the trick.

Cheers

Guy.

nick_f

9,031 posts

170 months

Tuesday 21st September 2004
quotequote all
Many thanks, I'll give both a try.

Of course, if my times don't improve as a result I'll come looking for you...

skinny

3,980 posts

159 months

Tuesday 21st September 2004
quotequote all
kneegrow said:
Since I will be running straight cut gears, I will hopefully have less shear happening. However, the torque will be huge and the pressures on the gear teeth, immense. I was considering using Castrol R as I am aware of it's ultimate film strength. I view lubricants (as you mention) with a degree of suspicion. Without getting carried along on the bandwagon of innovation, what are the limits of this oil and is it a wise choice?


no problem for that application, R40 is fine for straight cut gears and will be able to cope with the associated gear pressures. although it does have additives to reduce the effect, it is still unstable at high temperatures compared to a fully-synthetic oil and so can deteriorate fairly quickly at bulk temperatures typically over 100C, but as you know to change it regularly and the that you can't top-up or simply re-fill with a regular oil, then i don't see why not.

phil hill

433 posts

200 months

Friday 24th September 2004
quotequote all
Another oily question for you :

Subaru Flat 6 3.3ltr 24v normally aspirated. No modifications, now over 90K miles. Advised service interval is 9000 miles, and has been running on various synthetics (recently Havoline & Mobil 1). Has the ususal Subaru minor leaks on the cam covers, but doesn't appear to burn any oil.

What oil would you advise ??

What are you like on transmission fluid ?? The vehicle has an auto transmission which also contains the transfer gears. The front and centre diffs have separate oil supplies. The type of transmission (4eat) has a reputation for "cooking" it's fluid, although most owners have fitted auxilary coolers.

The recommended fluid is Dexion III. I know nothing about transmission fluids, so this doesn't mean much to me. There is talk of synthetic transmission fluids, and other specific additives to reduce friction and improve shifts, although I think these fall into the "snake oil" catagory again.

Do you have any suggestions or thoughts ??

opieoilman

Original Poster:

4,086 posts

160 months

Friday 24th September 2004
quotequote all
phil hill said:
Another oily question for you :

Subaru Flat 6 3.3ltr 24v normally aspirated. No modifications, now over 90K miles. Advised service interval is 9000 miles, and has been running on various synthetics (recently Havoline & Mobil 1). Has the ususal Subaru minor leaks on the cam covers, but doesn't appear to burn any oil.

What oil would you advise ??

What are you like on transmission fluid ?? The vehicle has an auto transmission which also contains the transfer gears. The front and centre diffs have separate oil supplies. The type of transmission (4eat) has a reputation for "cooking" it's fluid, although most owners have fitted auxilary coolers.

The recommended fluid is Dexion III. I know nothing about transmission fluids, so this doesn't mean much to me. There is talk of synthetic transmission fluids, and other specific additives to reduce friction and improve shifts, although I think these fall into the "snake oil" catagory again.

Do you have any suggestions or thoughts ??



Is this Subaru a Legacy or outback? and is it an import? I would stick with fully synthetic, around the 5w-40 grade, go for a PAO or PAO/Ester blend which will be good for 9000-12000 miles. The Mobil is a PAO. For the transmission I would recomend the Fuchs Titan ATF4000 which meets the Derxron III spec. Being a full synthetic it will have no problems dealing with the tems and loads.

Cheers

Guy.

phil hill

433 posts

200 months

Friday 24th September 2004
quotequote all
No it's not a Legacy or an Outback, and yes it's a UK car. [cough] check my profile [cough].

Thanks for the info, it's good to know someone in the know.

What are you like on Vintage stuff : We are about to get the engine back for our 1920 Ruston & Hornsby car. The engine is a Dorman's of Stafford 4 cylinder, bore 80mm, stoke 130mm rated at 16hp on the old RAC scale. It's a side valve with roller cam followers and triple electrode plugs (who said either of these were modern inventions !!) The engine has had a major overhaul including having pourous sections cut out of the block and new sections cast and stitch-welded in. The bearings have been re-metalled, there are no thrust bearings what-so-ever and it has a heavily sprung cone clutch.

Previously we have run a Shell straight or mono-grade oil of about 30-40 weight, which worked fine, even when loaded with water (which had precipitated through pourous material in the block !!)

Any ideas about something to break the new bearings in on, and what to use after that ?? It will be used for very limited mileage, say maximum of 1000 per year.

Cheers

opieoilman

Original Poster:

4,086 posts

160 months

Friday 24th September 2004
quotequote all
Phil,

An SVX Coupe, I would not have guessed, I must learn to look at peoples profiles. For all year round use it is recomended a 5w-40 full synthetic. I would suggest the Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 or the Fuchs Titan Supersyn SL 5w-40 as both of these are top quality PAO/Ester based synehtic.

For your vintage, sounds lovely and I have passed your details on to the Chief R&D Chemist for Silkolene, he really know is onions when it comes to vintage cars so I await his reeply.

opieoilman

Original Poster:

4,086 posts

160 months

Friday 24th September 2004
quotequote all
Phil,

For your vintage, this is what has been recomended.

Use Chatsworth 40 for both break-in and normal use. If it s been re-bored, use a bit of 2-stroke oil (0.5 to 1% Supertwo Injector) in the fuel for a while to avoid piston pick-up.

(Are the triple-electrode plugs Lodge CB3 18mm, by any chance? These are very forgiving; I ve used them in the past in my S/V Matchless v-twin!)

Cheers

Guy.

Phil Hill

433 posts

200 months

Friday 24th September 2004
quotequote all
Thanks again Guy.

Let's see if I can get an image of the Ruston on here......
<img src="http:/[url]<"www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/Phil_Hill/20870.JPG">[url]

There, hows that ?? I believe we have used those Lodge plugs, are these the ones which dismantle to allow the insulator to be cleaned ?? I'll check the box of bits when I'm next there.

>> Edited by Phil Hill on Friday 24th September 16:34

>> Edited by Phil Hill on Friday 24th September 16:34

Hmmm, not doing very well here.......

>> Edited by Phil Hill on Friday 24th September 16:36

Damn URL codes, at least the link to the pic is there !!

>> Edited by Phil Hill on Friday 24th September 16:39