Any Peugeot (or Citroen) TU3 Engine Tuners Around? Dave B?
Discussion
All,
Picked myself up a little '92 Peugeot 106 1.4 XSi at the weekend.
I believe the engine code is TU3FJ2 and it's an iron block 1,360cc with the Rallye head, as I understand it.
I am looking at this car as my 'project' for the next few months. It needs a complete repaint and the head gasket has blown (as well as other niggles), so I am going to strip the car down to its nuts and bolts and start again.
On that basis - I want to completely rebuild the engine to a 'fast road' sort of level maybe 110+bhp and get some weight out of the car, while I am at it.
I understand the 1.3 Rallye inlet manifold is a good breathing upgrade but it doesn't seem to be clear whether this is a direct swap or it needs the Rallye loom splicing in/ different sensors - does anyone know for sure?
There appear to be a lot of cams available (CatCams, Newman, Piper, Kent) - does anyone have a recommendation for what to use on the Rallye (or standard) injection and 1,360cc bottom end? I'm guessing something around 270° duration is probably the limit?
Is it worth sticking with the iron block? It would be quite nice building an engine based on the aluminium 1,360cc block found in the Quicksilver or Saxo Furio. That would save a few kilos over the front end.
However, I understand the pistons in the alloy engine are not high compression and I expect the XSi pistons can't be used in the aluminimum block - or am I wrong? A big head skim seems to be the easiest way of getting the XSi head on the Quicksilver bottom end. Worthwhile?
Also, is there anyone down here (London/ Surrey) who is any good with head work/ porting, these days? Or will the engine be fine with a mild cam upgrade, skim and rebuild, maybe 3-angle valve seats?
Dave B - I will be digging through your archives, shortly as I think you have a section on the TU, if memory serves. But I don't think I want to build the engine myself as the garage is full of car... Need someone good and local (maybe Naismith's) that I can 'instruct'.
Cheers, Dom
Picked myself up a little '92 Peugeot 106 1.4 XSi at the weekend.
I believe the engine code is TU3FJ2 and it's an iron block 1,360cc with the Rallye head, as I understand it.
I am looking at this car as my 'project' for the next few months. It needs a complete repaint and the head gasket has blown (as well as other niggles), so I am going to strip the car down to its nuts and bolts and start again.
On that basis - I want to completely rebuild the engine to a 'fast road' sort of level maybe 110+bhp and get some weight out of the car, while I am at it.
I understand the 1.3 Rallye inlet manifold is a good breathing upgrade but it doesn't seem to be clear whether this is a direct swap or it needs the Rallye loom splicing in/ different sensors - does anyone know for sure?
There appear to be a lot of cams available (CatCams, Newman, Piper, Kent) - does anyone have a recommendation for what to use on the Rallye (or standard) injection and 1,360cc bottom end? I'm guessing something around 270° duration is probably the limit?
Is it worth sticking with the iron block? It would be quite nice building an engine based on the aluminium 1,360cc block found in the Quicksilver or Saxo Furio. That would save a few kilos over the front end.
However, I understand the pistons in the alloy engine are not high compression and I expect the XSi pistons can't be used in the aluminimum block - or am I wrong? A big head skim seems to be the easiest way of getting the XSi head on the Quicksilver bottom end. Worthwhile?
Also, is there anyone down here (London/ Surrey) who is any good with head work/ porting, these days? Or will the engine be fine with a mild cam upgrade, skim and rebuild, maybe 3-angle valve seats?
Dave B - I will be digging through your archives, shortly as I think you have a section on the TU, if memory serves. But I don't think I want to build the engine myself as the garage is full of car... Need someone good and local (maybe Naismith's) that I can 'instruct'.
Cheers, Dom
Edited by dom9 on Sunday 20th January 19:09
https://web.archive.org/web/20110903072843/http://...
I prefer the iron block for reliability. A bit of extra weight is neither here nor there.
I prefer the iron block for reliability. A bit of extra weight is neither here nor there.
PaulJC84 said:
I think Pug1off and Sandy Brown/Colin Satchell get good feedback on the forums.
I would ask on the 106 rallye facebook page as there is a lot of 106 traffic on there and they will also know about fitting the S1 rallye inlet onto other Peugeot engines.
Thanks Paul - I have actually been on the Satchell Engineering website this morning. I'll ping Colin a message and see what they think.I would ask on the 106 rallye facebook page as there is a lot of 106 traffic on there and they will also know about fitting the S1 rallye inlet onto other Peugeot engines.
I don't Facebook but maybe I'll steal Mrs.9;'s log in and take a look. The Rallye Forum isn't very clear at all.
My understanding was that the S1 XSi and Rallye looms were the same but other threads seem to suggest otherwise. Regardless, the car will be remapped.
Pumaracing said:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110903072843/http://...
I prefer the iron block for reliability. A bit of extra weight is neither here nor there.
Thanks DB, I knew you'd come through with a link I prefer the iron block for reliability. A bit of extra weight is neither here nor there.
It sounds like I need to source an XSi specific head gasket with the cut outs - I hadn't realised that so it's great info.
It also sounds like the rebuild need not be too expensive, if OE quality parts are the way forward for the bottom end (bearings, rings etc).
CatCams are the cam manufacturer to go for then, which ties-in to my research, but I think maybe I should stick to the 602/5 profile as this car will be a road car.
What compression would you advise for those or would it just be a skim to clean up the head face?
It's starting to feel like an 'OE standard' rebuild with a mild-ish CatCam, 4-2-1 exhaust and S1 Rallye manifold (and remap) would be ideal for my purposes. Complex or expensive head work or bottom end balancing etc are perhaps wasted on a purely road engine.
The stock CR is about 10:1. 0.9mm off the cylinder head takes this to 11:1. With the 645 cam this brings the valves really close to the pistons and is as far as you can go without piston cutouts and even then it's tight and needs checking.
The milder cams will be safer as regards piston/valve contact of course and also need less CR so doubly safe. If you're having the head skimmed anyway I'd take 0.5mm off to raise the CR to just over 10.5.
The head is really tricky to modify properly and we saw a certain west country person's professionally ported head showing no apparent gains on the same very conservative rollers that gave us 139 bhp on my mate Garry Muir's rally engine with my head. From memory this other identical spec engine with 645, TBs, exhaust etc was 126 bhp which was about what we got with a stock head. So there's potentially 10-13 bhp to come from a perfectly ported head but I wouldn't like to suggest who could do that for you. Probably best to save your money.
I'd say with the Rallye inlet manifold, exhaust, 4 branch, cam, 10.5 and stock head you should just about be at 120 bhp. Hopefully Garry who will remember all this better will chip in.
The milder cams will be safer as regards piston/valve contact of course and also need less CR so doubly safe. If you're having the head skimmed anyway I'd take 0.5mm off to raise the CR to just over 10.5.
The head is really tricky to modify properly and we saw a certain west country person's professionally ported head showing no apparent gains on the same very conservative rollers that gave us 139 bhp on my mate Garry Muir's rally engine with my head. From memory this other identical spec engine with 645, TBs, exhaust etc was 126 bhp which was about what we got with a stock head. So there's potentially 10-13 bhp to come from a perfectly ported head but I wouldn't like to suggest who could do that for you. Probably best to save your money.
I'd say with the Rallye inlet manifold, exhaust, 4 branch, cam, 10.5 and stock head you should just about be at 120 bhp. Hopefully Garry who will remember all this better will chip in.
Edited by Pumaracing on Wednesday 2nd March 13:37
geeks said:
Pumaracing said:
I'd say with the Rallye inlet manifold, exhaust, 4 branch, cam, 10.5 and stock head you should be just about be at 120 bhp.
^^This, this was how mine was done and it was a fantastic drive, I miss mine, one of those cars I should not have sold!
I was wondering whether you were interested in coming out of retirement, for a moment there, DB
Sounds like it's not worth porting it for my goal of 110+ bhp from a road tractable engine. Just need to track down the Rallye inlet (there is one on eBay in Holland for stupid money at the moment).
Then need to find someone who can supply the right head gasket and track down the CatCam. Waiting for Pug1Off to get back to me on the latter (I believe they are the dealer here) but maybe I should have asked the about the former...
However, I am guessing the proper answer is to go to my local, friendly Peugeot parts dealer and get OEM.
Will add the 0.5mm head skim to my list of things to do during the rebuild.
Very helpful
Brilliant little engine that can take some abuse.
When we 1st ran the 1360 with Daves head it had the 645 catcam, 1.3 Rallye inlet, janspeed 4-2-1 and dta management. It produced just over 133 bhp. It really caused a stir on the rally stages, especially as it was my wife Tracey that was the driver!
Around 6,months later I fitted some Gsxr 600 38mm motor bike throttle bodies on a Bogg Bro's inlet manifold. I was quite disappointed to only add a few bhp to the peak figure on the rolling road - but on the road the difference was very apparent! The engine pulled alot sooner - from just over 3k all the way to our self imposed 8100rpm limit. I ended up fitting the longer ram pipes from the gsxr 600 and brought the power up to 138bhp @flywheel and 120bhp @ the wheels.
The engine was later fitted into our 106 rally car as a temporary measure and had to raise the rpm limit to around 8500rpm - very impressive for a totally std bottom end.
Think I've got a couple of 1.3 inlet manifolds in the shed. Think I've still got a 645 catcam lying to
When we 1st ran the 1360 with Daves head it had the 645 catcam, 1.3 Rallye inlet, janspeed 4-2-1 and dta management. It produced just over 133 bhp. It really caused a stir on the rally stages, especially as it was my wife Tracey that was the driver!
Around 6,months later I fitted some Gsxr 600 38mm motor bike throttle bodies on a Bogg Bro's inlet manifold. I was quite disappointed to only add a few bhp to the peak figure on the rolling road - but on the road the difference was very apparent! The engine pulled alot sooner - from just over 3k all the way to our self imposed 8100rpm limit. I ended up fitting the longer ram pipes from the gsxr 600 and brought the power up to 138bhp @flywheel and 120bhp @ the wheels.
The engine was later fitted into our 106 rally car as a temporary measure and had to raise the rpm limit to around 8500rpm - very impressive for a totally std bottom end.
Think I've got a couple of 1.3 inlet manifolds in the shed. Think I've still got a 645 catcam lying to
Rally Ax said:
Brilliant little engine that can take some abuse.
When we 1st ran the 1360 with Daves head it had the 645 catcam, 1.3 Rallye inlet, janspeed 4-2-1 and dta management. It produced just over 133 bhp. It really caused a stir on the rally stages, especially as it was my wife Tracey that was the driver!
Around 6,months later I fitted some Gsxr 600 38mm motor bike throttle bodies on a Bogg Bro's inlet manifold. I was quite disappointed to only add a few bhp to the peak figure on the rolling road - but on the road the difference was very apparent! The engine pulled alot sooner - from just over 3k all the way to our self imposed 8100rpm limit. I ended up fitting the longer ram pipes from the gsxr 600 and brought the power up to 138bhp @flywheel and 120bhp @ the wheels.
The engine was later fitted into our 106 rally car as a temporary measure and had to raise the rpm limit to around 8500rpm - very impressive for a totally std bottom end.
Think I've got a couple of 1.3 inlet manifolds in the shed. Think I've still got a 645 catcam lying to
If you have any parts going spare - I am all ears! Would be very grateful, if you're selling When we 1st ran the 1360 with Daves head it had the 645 catcam, 1.3 Rallye inlet, janspeed 4-2-1 and dta management. It produced just over 133 bhp. It really caused a stir on the rally stages, especially as it was my wife Tracey that was the driver!
Around 6,months later I fitted some Gsxr 600 38mm motor bike throttle bodies on a Bogg Bro's inlet manifold. I was quite disappointed to only add a few bhp to the peak figure on the rolling road - but on the road the difference was very apparent! The engine pulled alot sooner - from just over 3k all the way to our self imposed 8100rpm limit. I ended up fitting the longer ram pipes from the gsxr 600 and brought the power up to 138bhp @flywheel and 120bhp @ the wheels.
The engine was later fitted into our 106 rally car as a temporary measure and had to raise the rpm limit to around 8500rpm - very impressive for a totally std bottom end.
Think I've got a couple of 1.3 inlet manifolds in the shed. Think I've still got a 645 catcam lying to
It does sound like the 645 may be a little too aggressive for my 'road' engine on a standard head but I am having trouble tracking down a 602 at reasonable money at the moment.
I guess I also need a vernier pulley to make the most of it. I also don't think I can go to the expense of DTA (or say Emerald etc) management, so I may need a session with Wayne Schofield or someone.
On that basis, a 602 may 'fit' the standard ECUs abilities 'better'.
When we were building 205GTi rally cars the only engine to have was a Skip Brown built one.They do wonders with all Peugeot engines,give them a call. http://www.skipbrowncars.com/
Thanks Old Merc - I remember them from my 205 GTi days.
Will get in touch but if all I'm really needing is an OEM standard refresh, will probably go local.
Naismiths in Wimbledon seem to have a good rep.
Just need the cam, vernier and S1 Rallye inlet and throttle body and I should be good to go!
Will get in touch but if all I'm really needing is an OEM standard refresh, will probably go local.
Naismiths in Wimbledon seem to have a good rep.
Just need the cam, vernier and S1 Rallye inlet and throttle body and I should be good to go!
Dave (et al) - Could have emailed you but since I can't find much info on the web, thought this would be good here.
I managed to pick up a new FAI HG759 head gasket, cheap: http://catalogue.faiauto.com/parts/HG759
I believe that should work on my 1.4 XSi engine.
It is 1.3mm thick, which I believe is the same as the standard gasket.
However, they also do a 1.5mm thick gasket; the HG760: http://catalogue.faiauto.com/parts/HG760
I think 1.5mm is larger than 'standard', so not what I want (unless I over-skim).
My issue is that the bores look perfectly round in the FAI gasket, unlike their Payen counterparts (well, I haven't seen a BY130 but the BY170 has the 'cut outs').
The Payen BY170 (equivalent to the HG760, 1.5mm thick) seems fairly available and I have my eye on one.
That seems to have the slightly irregular bore shape, which is what you suggest on your website.
What would you suggest; pick up a Payen or will the FAI HG759 be ok?
I assume the 0.5-1mm skim (cam dependant) was based on the 'standard' HG thickness of 1.3mm?
I managed to pick up a new FAI HG759 head gasket, cheap: http://catalogue.faiauto.com/parts/HG759
I believe that should work on my 1.4 XSi engine.
It is 1.3mm thick, which I believe is the same as the standard gasket.
However, they also do a 1.5mm thick gasket; the HG760: http://catalogue.faiauto.com/parts/HG760
I think 1.5mm is larger than 'standard', so not what I want (unless I over-skim).
My issue is that the bores look perfectly round in the FAI gasket, unlike their Payen counterparts (well, I haven't seen a BY130 but the BY170 has the 'cut outs').
The Payen BY170 (equivalent to the HG760, 1.5mm thick) seems fairly available and I have my eye on one.
That seems to have the slightly irregular bore shape, which is what you suggest on your website.
What would you suggest; pick up a Payen or will the FAI HG759 be ok?
I assume the 0.5-1mm skim (cam dependant) was based on the 'standard' HG thickness of 1.3mm?
Edited by dom9 on Friday 1st April 21:25
The compressed gasket thickness I use in my CR calculations is 1.2mm presumably from one I measured many years ago with the nominal 1.3mm quoted thickness.
The gasket cutouts are to match the head and unshroud the larger valves in the XSi engine properly. Whether the round gasket would have any noticeable adverse effect on flow is unknown.
The gasket cutouts are to match the head and unshroud the larger valves in the XSi engine properly. Whether the round gasket would have any noticeable adverse effect on flow is unknown.
Pumaracing said:
The compressed gasket thickness I use in my CR calculations is 1.2mm presumably from one I measured many years ago with the nominal 1.3mm quoted thickness.
The gasket cutouts are to match the head and unshroud the larger valves in the XSi engine properly. Whether the round gasket would have any noticeable adverse effect on flow is unknown.
Perfect answer, as always - Thanks Dave.The gasket cutouts are to match the head and unshroud the larger valves in the XSi engine properly. Whether the round gasket would have any noticeable adverse effect on flow is unknown.
I've heard of engines running 'fine' with a 'standard' 1.4 gasket (however, the HG759 is for the 1.4 GTi and XSi, specifically) so I'd hope the FAI was ok.
However - I'll pick up a Payen with the cutouts and keep the FAI as a 'spare'.
Or perhaps I'll get the car back up and running on the FAI so I can test the Rallye inlet and engine electrics (fans) etc and then pull it out and rebuild with a Payen.
Finally getting back to this after some time off... DB, if you're still here, or anyone with good knowledge of the head:
Are 3 angle/ different angle valve seats worth it on an unported engine? I know DB talks about the 30° seats needing careful porting to work well but this link suggests some different angles (45, 70, 85): http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=2693
I have a couple of heads and I don't feel the need to spend a load of money having them ported, nor do I have the time to do much more than a clean-up myself, but I may well need the seats re-cut (we'll see). Were that to be the case; I was wondering if there was a consensus on a better angle/ combination of angles for a little more flow without porting?
Are 3 angle/ different angle valve seats worth it on an unported engine? I know DB talks about the 30° seats needing careful porting to work well but this link suggests some different angles (45, 70, 85): http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=2693
I have a couple of heads and I don't feel the need to spend a load of money having them ported, nor do I have the time to do much more than a clean-up myself, but I may well need the seats re-cut (we'll see). Were that to be the case; I was wondering if there was a consensus on a better angle/ combination of angles for a little more flow without porting?
Absolutely don't change the 30 degree seat angle which in any case would be a sh** load of work to do. 30 degree seats flow a lot better at low lift than 45 but most people are not used to dealing with them. It takes careful work to the bottom cut and throat to optimise them. I actually used to do a lot of that by hand with a tiny stone in the porting handpiece rather than with seat cutters. Tricky and of course you can't afford even one slip. Mad effort but it paid dividends with Garry's engine (RallyeAx).
Hi all, i'm new here. Searching for some information, i'd like to refresh this thread.
I'v got a Saxo as hobby rallye car. I'M Actually facing some troubles with head. Engine is TU3JP (1.4 8v) roller rockers.
Question is, will the rocker arm assembly fit (and run) instead of roller rocker arms one? I bought a rocker arm assembly from TU3 and CatCam camshaft for rocker arms. (ive checked some part numbers in Servicebox and ist all the same) BUT is there any diferention in the head itself ? Diferent Cam center axis position?
Thanks for any help.
I'v got a Saxo as hobby rallye car. I'M Actually facing some troubles with head. Engine is TU3JP (1.4 8v) roller rockers.
Question is, will the rocker arm assembly fit (and run) instead of roller rocker arms one? I bought a rocker arm assembly from TU3 and CatCam camshaft for rocker arms. (ive checked some part numbers in Servicebox and ist all the same) BUT is there any diferention in the head itself ? Diferent Cam center axis position?
Thanks for any help.
If anyone willing to drive to Yorkshire wants one of these engines I've got a low mileage one complete with box pulled from a furio which I'll be skipping soon. Anyone who can collect it if it's of use to them to build in to a race motor or replace a blown motor is welcome to it for a bottle of plonk.
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