Engine swap/mounts/driveshafts - Removal of AC, smaller belt

[AntiSocialMotorist]

First some info

In the middle of an engine swap replacing a 2Cyl 650cc carb cast iron block (chinese engine copy) with the 0.9TCE above (alum, same weight as cast iron). The engine was inside a joyner 650, best way to describe it is a side by side (kit car), or a much smaller sand rail. Made china sold USA imported UK.

Currently the belt setup you see is how the engine was made for market, the "red" was part of the concept. The "blue" is the new proposed belt setup, Ive spent days upon days planning this entire build sitting down with a mechanic to make sure everything is done bang on to avoid any issues later on and its now entering its final stages (and the nerves are starting to set in).

The AC unit has to be removed to get the engine to fit, however working out the belts route and size was proving an issue, so some extra data on this would be great. Recommendations on making sure belt will fit, if the "blue" route is wrong or any changes you would make. There exists no pre-made belt for this, the engine is sold with AC always. There is no 0.9TCE -AC belt as far as i have found speaking to people who have worked or owned the engine. (Belt is ribbed inside, flat outside) Its used inside Clio IV, Sandero etc its the Turbo "Eco" engine.

The other issue is the engine swap itself, total work that needs to be done is the new engine mounts and cut/sleeve the drive shafts work out the gear linkage and its done, i can start to rebuild. Exhaust/ECU/Radiator/Inter cooler/hoses etc all is ready to go with parts all tidy in boxes waiting to go.

I have spoken to several people in South Wales and no one is interested in the job itself, I originally had planned to do this work myself 6 months ago however an accident at work as left serious damage and recovery is slow. I am sure people know that building engine mounts fresh requires an extreme amount of patience and strength due to having to move the block in, take some measurements mock up the mount test fit and repeat. I lack both the patience and strength in my current condition.

Summary

Tube frame, reinforce area around engine for new engine mounts and gearbox mounts, build the engine mounts/gearbox mounts, cut sleeve and weld drive shafts, workout gear linkage. Rebuild - Done 90BHP into a 350KG frame, then its getting the tuning suspension etc at a later date.

If anyone has some advice on the belts or know of a garage in south wales or near area that does this type of work that would be great. I had a few garages lined up however they have swapped engines before but not re-done mounts like this before, i have one option left after this if i am unable to find anyone close in southwales and it will be shipping/transporting it 4 hours away, dump it there and pray its done within 3 months.

Any help/info would be great thanks in advance, if you have questions ask and ill get back to you on it.

[GreenV8S]

I don't see any problem with the belt run you show, assuming you choose the correct size for the pulley you're adding, change the tensioner puller from plain to ribbed and all the pulleys are lined up correctly. I expect you'll find the belt is a standard profile and width and I wouldn't expect any problem getting that in any length you choose.

You seem to be asking for suggestions for people to complete the conversion for you. I don't have any specific recommendations, but it sounds like potentially weeks of work for an experienced fabricator in a well equipped workshop so it isn't going to be cheap.

[stevieturbo]

The only problem with the above, is how much tension the tensioner will actually be able to offer you, if any.

As for shops to do such work. As above, this will be very difficult, and often very expensive even more so for such a unique job.


Craig at Dynotorque in Birmingham does many conversions...but usually LS based. Either way, a very knowledgable and able fabricator, so he may be able to help.

[Steve_D]

The belt layout is not bad and I assume the pulley in the middle of the cluster is a spring loaded tensioner. If this was made to be a fixed/adjustable tensioner the blue belt could go the other side of it giving better 'wrap' to the other pullies and avoid the need to change it to a ribbed style. For belt length just take your existing belt which is too long and cut it. It will likely be marked something like 6PK630 PK is the type of 'poly-v' belt, 6 is the number of ribs & 630 is the length. All you need do then is wrap your cut belt round your route and use it to measure the length you need. With the old belt and your new length you should be able to go into any motor factors and get a new belt very close to your measured length.

Everything you want is doable and is the sort of work I do but I have to repeat what has already been said the cost will be astronomical and seriously painful. Kitcars are only cheap if you do it yourself in a shed but even then costs can get out of hand. Sadly if you are unable to continue this work yourself I suspect the project will no longer be viable or will have to go on hold until you have your fitness back.

Good luck
Steve

Edit
Perhaps some planning is required here. Sit down and break the task up into small chunks then split them out into the bits you can do and the bits you need help with. It may be that the people you have approached were not willing to risk taking on the whole job with you expecting to drive away a finished car. Instead ask them to just 'mount the engine', 'make a driveshaft' etc.
It will take longer but will leave you in control of the spend.

Edited by Steve_D on Friday 21st July 10:24

[AntiSocialMotorist]

GreenV8S said:

I don't see any problem with the belt run you show, assuming you choose the correct size for the pulley you're adding, change the tensioner puller from plain to ribbed and all the pulleys are lined up correctly. I expect you'll find the belt is a standard profile and width and I wouldn't expect any problem getting that in any length you choose.

You seem to be asking for suggestions for people to complete the conversion for you. I don't have any specific recommendations, but it sounds like potentially weeks of work for an experienced fabricator in a well equipped workshop so it isn't going to be cheap.

There should no be issues with the belt, its just more a length issue. Asking for suggestions is part of it, i have a "plan" in my head i have most of the pre-measurements and placements done. Its more a case of i wanted other peoples view to check my own. And yeah cheap is the problem, i had a quote for engine swap for £400 if i provided the engine, however the moment new engine mounts came into play it sky rocketed into £4,000 just for engine mounts no extra work.

stevieturbo said:

The only problem with the above, is how much tension the tensioner will actually be able to offer you, if any.

As for shops to do such work. As above, this will be very difficult, and often very expensive even more so for such a unique job.


Craig at Dynotorque in Birmingham does many conversions...but usually LS based. Either way, a very knowledgable and able fabricator, so he may be able to help.

That was my worry also was if i can get the belt to tension, adjustment is minor. Old engine actually had a slider fitted to the starter allowing you to crank the starter to add tension. However this will require the belt to be perfect.
I will be traveling north soon so it might be possible to drop by to ask some questions, ill look into it.

Steve_D said:

The belt layout is not bad and I assume the pulley in the middle of the cluster is a spring loaded tensioner. If this was made to be a fixed/adjustable tensioner the blue belt could go the other side of it giving better 'wrap' to the other pullies and avoid the need to change it to a ribbed style. For belt length just take your existing belt which is too long and cut it. It will likely be marked something like 6PK630 PK is the type of 'poly-v' belt, 6 is the number of ribs & 630 is the length. All you need do then is wrap your cut belt round your route and use it to measure the length you need. With the old belt and your new length you should be able to go into any motor factors and get a new belt very close to your measured length.

Everything you want is doable and is the sort of work I do but I have to repeat what has already been said the cost will be astronomical and seriously painful. Kitcars are only cheap if you do it yourself in a shed but even then costs can get out of hand. Sadly if you are unable to continue this work yourself I suspect the project will no longer be viable or will have to go on hold until you have your fitness back.

Good luck
Steve

Edit
Perhaps some planning is required here. Sit down and break the task up into small chunks then split them out into the bits you can do and the bits you need help with. It may be that the people you have approached were not willing to risk taking on the whole job with you expecting to drive away a finished car. Instead ask them to just 'mount the engine', 'make a driveshaft' etc.
It will take longer but will leave you in control of the spend.

Edited by Steve_D on Friday 21st July 10:24

Its possible to put the belt on the other side, this should add some more tension to the others ill check on that. I did not think about cutting and using the old belt for the measurements, i live next to a motorfactors was just going to borrow there stock over and over if i could not think of a solution, ill get that done soon.

And yes my fitness has messed this up for me completely, i have managed to get to this place by doing just a little bit here and there, its a possible 6 months+ before i am back to somewhat normal of my ability. The amount of medical professionals i have pissed off during these 6 months with my physio recovery is amusing. I do not think doing an engine rebuild and swap is a part of recovery route, i was trying not to push myself with the engine as its the heaviest part of the build

However to your last comment yeah, i know of a fabricator locally who is prepared to help with small jobs as long as everything is done pre-hand for cheap, he just needs to parts and measurements. I might just have to bite the bullet and do as much as i am able and provide it to him to be completed. Or like you said wait a further 6 months, i just wanted to avoid having everything sitting around for a year. Its completely in the way of other things that needed to be done.

Thanks ill keep watching the post see if there is further aid towards this.

[Megaflow]

I think you will struggle for belt tension with the blue routing, the tensioner will only be acting on one run of the belt, so to speak. With tempeh position of the tensioner in the factory run, the movement of the tensioner is effectively doubled because the belt run is almost 360 around it.

My suggestion would be to keep the belt run as it is, but replace the a/c with an idler, tucked in as close as possible to the engine to keep the run from crank to alternator away from the tensioner when it is at full stretch.

[E-bmw]

Pardon me if this is a stupid suggestion, but would it not be possible to reverse the action of the current tensioner & therefore just remove the AC compressor & have that run of the belt run round the reversed tensioner.

[AntiSocialMotorist]

Megaflow said:

I think you will struggle for belt tension with the blue routing, the tensioner will only be acting on one run of the belt, so to speak. With tempeh position of the tensioner in the factory run, the movement of the tensioner is effectively doubled because the belt run is almost 360 around it.

My suggestion would be to keep the belt run as it is, but replace the a/c with an idler, tucked in as close as possible to the engine to keep the run from crank to alternator away from the tensioner when it is at full stretch.

There is not enough space to re-make a new system in the void of the AC unit, the area needs to be completely free as its actual frame.

E-bmw said:

Pardon me if this is a stupid suggestion, but would it not be possible to reverse the action of the current tensioner & therefore just remove the AC compressor & have that run of the belt run round the reversed tensioner.



The yellow line is the correct to the blue. Is the green what you are proposing?

[Megaflow]

AntiSocialMotorist said:

Megaflow said:

I think you will struggle for belt tension with the blue routing, the tensioner will only be acting on one run of the belt, so to speak. With tempeh position of the tensioner in the factory run, the movement of the tensioner is effectively doubled because the belt run is almost 360 around it.

My suggestion would be to keep the belt run as it is, but replace the a/c with an idler, tucked in as close as possible to the engine to keep the run from crank to alternator away from the tensioner when it is at full stretch.

There is not enough space to re-make a new system in the void of the AC unit, the area needs to be completely free as its actual frame.

E-bmw said:

Pardon me if this is a stupid suggestion, but would it not be possible to reverse the action of the current tensioner & therefore just remove the AC compressor & have that run of the belt run round the reversed tensioner.



The yellow line is the correct to the blue. Is the green what you are proposing?

The idler doesn't have to be exactly where the a/c, it just needs to be positioned such that the belt run from the crank to alternator clears the tensioner at full extension. See the square hole just underneath the alternator, I reckon something as high up as that, just to square up the the run into the alternator might do it.

[E-bmw]

AntiSocialMotorist said:

Megaflow said:

E-bmw said:

Pardon me if this is a stupid suggestion, but would it not be possible to reverse the action of the current tensioner & therefore just remove the AC compressor & have that run of the belt run round the reversed tensioner.



The yellow line is the correct to the blue. Is the green what you are proposing?

Not quite.

Use the blue route here but then "swap" to the yellow line around the modified/reversed tensioner adapted to then provide tension to your new route.

Hope that makes sense.

I know the tensioner won't have a huge "reach" but that has to be the simplest route and worse case scenario you need to change the belt more frequently.

[stevieturbo]

E-bmw said:

Pardon me if this is a stupid suggestion, but would it not be possible to reverse the action of the current tensioner & therefore just remove the AC compressor & have that run of the belt run round the reversed tensioner.

There would be no easy way to do that, unless you found an identical tensioner that operated in the opposite direction.

[E-bmw]

Surely the feasibility or not of the suggestion would depend entirely on the spring that applies the tension.

A recoil (I think that is what they are called) type could easily be reverse-wound to achieve this and then the end-stop could be modified to suit.

[stevieturbo]

E-bmw said:

Surely the feasibility or not of the suggestion would depend entirely on the spring that applies the tension.

A recoil (I think that is what they are called) type could easily be reverse-wound to achieve this and then the end-stop could be modified to suit.

if you can take it apart and have someone do that, and the spring and adjustment stops etc all allow this too...then it is possible.
But very unlikely and often the actual housing is integral to the brackets on the vehicle making things a lik

It would be far far easier just to add an idler pulley where the A/C used to sit though and retain fairly close to OEM belt routing.

Edited by stevieturbo on Saturday 22 July 11:06

Edited by stevieturbo on Saturday 22 July 11:07

[E-bmw]

OK, never really looked at them close or frequent enough to see if they come apart, was just a thought.

[chammyman]

Main issue is the crank spins clockwise, water pump anti clockwise and the alternator clockwise.

Not many take these works on because its hassle and costs a lot. Development isn't cheap.

Then the added bonus of the timing cover specifically the dipstick tube which the belt will rub on.

You need a decent amount of belt wrap on the pulleys or things will slip.

The way I see would be best is idler above the crank larger so it will clear this routing,

In a clockwise direction

From crank up to idler,
from idler to alternator,
alternator to tensioner
tensioner up and around water pump
back to crank.

Tensioner won't be the happiest but the water pump and alternator are spinning the right way.

[the_stoat]

Could you look at the alternator mounts and create the tension from there, you may need to buy one with more offset mountings? For example the small Denso many of use Westfield kit car types use, note if you try this look for one from a Kubota tractor as it avoids the 'motorsport' tax.

Edited by the_stoat on Saturday 22 July 19:18

[Krikkit]

If there's room I'd take the tensioner out and use the alternator brackets (again, if workable) to tension the belt on its longest run.

As far as engine mounts go it's a tricky job, but I suspect the £4k quoted is done simply because they don't want the job!

[Tony427]

stevieturbo said:

E-bmw said:

Surely the feasibility or not of the suggestion would depend entirely on the spring that applies the tension.

A recoil (I think that is what they are called) type could easily be reverse-wound to achieve this and then the end-stop could be modified to suit.

if you can take it apart and have someone do that, and the spring and adjustment stops etc all allow this too...then it is possible.
But very unlikely and often the actual housing is integral to the brackets on the vehicle making things a lik

It would be far far easier just to add an idler pulley where the A/C used to sit though and retain fairly close to OEM belt routing.

Edited by stevieturbo on Saturday 22 July 11:06

Edited by stevieturbo on Saturday 22 July 11:07

When we delete the AC on our Lexus V8's we simply dismantle the automatic tensioner, turn the spring through 180 degrees drill a new location hiole ror the end of the spring to locate into and bolt the lot back up again. Voila a spring tensioner with its tension working in the oppisite direction. Takes probably two or three hours.

We then saw a Lexus were the automatic tensioner had been removed and the tension was applied old school by allowing the alternator to pivot on one of its mountings and using an adjusting strap to hold the alternator at the correct distance to achieve the correct tension.

Ours is more palaver but looks factory but belt lengths have to me accurately measured. The sliding alternator is easy, quick and simpler to operate, and the belt length is no so critical, but will look not quite so OEM.

hth,

cheers,

Tony

[AntiSocialMotorist]

stevieturbo said:

if you can take it apart and have someone do that, and the spring and adjustment stops etc all allow this too...then it is possible.
But very unlikely and often the actual housing is integral to the brackets on the vehicle making things a lik

It would be far far easier just to add an idler pulley where the A/C used to sit though and retain fairly close to OEM belt routing.

Edited by stevieturbo on Saturday 22 July 11:06

Edited by stevieturbo on Saturday 22 July 11:07

This might be possible but with a slight revision, the AC space must been void. The frame is directly in the way, the alternative is to start cutting frame away, i need to avoid this as not only work increases/cost and im sure the DVLA would love to know i cut chunks of the main frame out.

chammyman said:

Main issue is the crank spins clockwise, water pump anti clockwise and the alternator clockwise.

Not many take these works on because its hassle and costs a lot. Development isn't cheap.

Then the added bonus of the timing cover specifically the dipstick tube which the belt will rub on.

You need a decent amount of belt wrap on the pulleys or things will slip.

The way I see would be best is idler above the crank larger so it will clear this routing,

In a clockwise direction

From crank up to idler,
from idler to alternator,
alternator to tensioner
tensioner up and around water pump
back to crank.

Tensioner won't be the happiest but the water pump and alternator are spinning the right way.

Yeah, i have taken some measurements and i think that below might work, however the issue is belt length will need to be changed.

Tony427 said:

When we delete the AC on our Lexus V8's we simply dismantle the automatic tensioner, turn the spring through 180 degrees drill a new location hiole ror the end of the spring to locate into and bolt the lot back up again. Voila a spring tensioner with its tension working in the oppisite direction. Takes probably two or three hours.

We then saw a Lexus were the automatic tensioner had been removed and the tension was applied old school by allowing the alternator to pivot on one of its mountings and using an adjusting strap to hold the alternator at the correct distance to achieve the correct tension.

Ours is more palaver but looks factory but belt lengths have to me accurately measured. The sliding alternator is easy, quick and simpler to operate, and the belt length is no so critical, but will look not quite so OEM.

hth,

cheers,

Tony

Revised belt plan? Adding in an idle like the original concept and keeping the original pathing. Will require a shorter belt and some ajustment..

Solution? best of both ?

[AntiSocialMotorist]

Krikkit said:

If there's room I'd take the tensioner out and use the alternator brackets (again, if workable) to tension the belt on its longest run.

As far as engine mounts go it's a tricky job, but I suspect the £4k quoted is done simply because they don't want the job!

I visted around 40 garages, and spoke to a lot more by email and phone. The feedback i got most of the time was " we can do it, but we wont. In the time it takes us to do your engine mounts we can do X amount service X amount clutch replacement and make 10times over what we would charge you "

So i honestly get where people are coming from on this, but i had just finished the mad rush in work had a month booked off and on the last week almost broke my back and KO'd myself. Its set me back months and months, i was honestly hoping someone had spare time to potter about on it when they had the time.