Engine build lube

Author
Discussion

227bhp

Original Poster:

10,203 posts

127 months

Monday 4th December 2017
quotequote all
I Just wondered what any of the engine builders use and if you would apply Graphogen to newly honed bores?
I've always used Millers competition assembly lube (it's got 'competition' on it so it must be good wink ) which is like honey in many ways, and mineral on the bores , but am thinking of trying Graphogen as some engines stand around for a while before being used. One thing I noticed is they say you can smear it all over the bores, but I'm worried it might stop or slow the rings and bores bedding in.
What say you?


Edited by 227bhp on Monday 4th December 20:00

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Monday 4th December 2017
quotequote all
I've never used anything other than oil on the bores.

I dont think any type of grease etc would be a good idea to clog up the rings/grooves.

227bhp

Original Poster:

10,203 posts

127 months

Monday 4th December 2017
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
I've never used anything other than oil on the bores.

I dont think any type of grease etc would be a good idea to clog up the rings/grooves.
Apparently it's the stuff for the job, very specific and washes away with oil, I wonder if it goes to liquid when warm scratchchin

Rat_Fink_67

2,309 posts

205 months

Monday 4th December 2017
quotequote all
I've never used anything but engine oil on the bores either, but for everywhere else I've always sworn by Torco MPZ assembly lube, and also Red Line.

DVandrews

1,315 posts

282 months

Monday 4th December 2017
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
I've never used anything other than oil on the bores.

I dont think any type of grease etc would be a good idea to clog up the rings/grooves.
As above, mineral oil only on the bores, 50/50 mix engine assembly lube/synthetic oil in bearings if the engine is being stored for any length of time. If it is for immediate use then just synth oil in the bearings.

if the engine is being stored I recommend a teabag / bag of silica gel down the plug wells and regular turning over by hand.

Dave


Boosted LS1

21,165 posts

259 months

Monday 4th December 2017
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
I've never used anything other than oil on the bores.
And I don't use a lot of it either but do oil the skirts.

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Monday 4th December 2017
quotequote all
Lets face it....you'd happily park your car after driving and let it sit for a few weeks without worrying about the bores having something on them.

Is a new build any different ?

You'd always be priming the engine anyway before starting, so I really dont think anything fancy is needed.

99hjhm

426 posts

185 months

Monday 4th December 2017
quotequote all
I use just oil on the bores. Graphogen is just going to clog ring grooves and gas ports. Think personally it’s a big out dated with synthetic and other assembly lubes. Used to use it to pack oil pumps but it ends up clumped in the oil filter, and if there is a cooler before the filter it’s not going to do it much good short term, use Vaseline for this now.

PaulKemp

979 posts

144 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
I part rebuilt an engine and due to other time pressures left it for a good while, despite a good slosh of oil and the occasional turn over and more oil when I eventually went back to finish the build there were marks in the bore and marks on the crank main bearings.
I had to pretty much start again.
Lesson learned, graphogen for bearings and journals, oil in the bores, oil rags all over the exposed parts of the engine.

Now after this thread I’m thinking about brining it in to the utility room over Xmas

227bhp

Original Poster:

10,203 posts

127 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
Lets face it....you'd happily park your car after driving and let it sit for a few weeks without worrying about the bores having something on them.

Is a new build any different ?

You'd always be priming the engine anyway before starting, so I really dont think anything fancy is needed.
When you're in the business of building engines and sending them out to customers yes it is. They are often fitted by people who don't have the same knowledge as me, i've known people break engines before they even put the wheels on the car and also they can sit around for years in someone's garage before being fitted or even sold on. I can do without the hassle it causes, the finger pointing and indignity of throwing my work in the bin and starting all over again.

227bhp

Original Poster:

10,203 posts

127 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
99hjhm said:
I use just oil on the bores. Graphogen is just going to clog ring grooves and gas ports. Think personally it’s a big out dated with synthetic and other assembly lubes. Used to use it to pack oil pumps but it ends up clumped in the oil filter, and if there is a cooler before the filter it’s not going to do it much good short term, use Vaseline for this now.
It's advertised as oil soluble, it is very old school though, I read it was developed in WW2. I've taken pumps apart before now from used engines and they've still had Vaseline in them, not that I think it was doing any harm, but it was till there.
I think that oil pressure is going to blast anything out of the way, it'll only get caught in low pressure areas and filters which doesn't matter, changing the filter is part of the running in process anyhow.

I'm thinking it'll be ok for crank bearings, but I wouldn't like to put it on bores, even if they claim you can. It's too thick and may mess up the break in procedure.

227bhp

Original Poster:

10,203 posts

127 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
PaulKemp said:
I part rebuilt an engine and due to other time pressures left it for a good while, despite a good slosh of oil and the occasional turn over and more oil when I eventually went back to finish the build there were marks in the bore and marks on the crank main bearings.
I had to pretty much start again.
Lesson learned, graphogen for bearings and journals, oil in the bores, oil rags all over the exposed parts of the engine.

Now after this thread I’m thinking about brining it in to the utility room over Xmas
You can brine your turkey, don't do the engine though. wink

robinessex

11,046 posts

180 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
Rebuilt quite a few engines. Nowt but oddles of oil used during assembly. Then spin it over with the plugs out until oil pressure is up, or if you can get at it, spin the oil pump with an electric drill to achieve the same thing. Never had any problems, but always used the old fashioned way of running in. Have used the race engine run in technique of a steady 1500/2000 rpm for about 15/13 mins at first start up to burnish the contact surfaces.

CrutyRammers

13,735 posts

197 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
Rat_Fink_67 said:
I've never used anything but engine oil on the bores either, but for everywhere else I've always sworn by Torco MPZ assembly lube, and also Red Line.
^^^ I used MPZ for my last one, it sticks around for an impressively long time so seems a good idea if the engine will stand for a long time.

tapkaJohnD

1,930 posts

203 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
227bhp said:
It's advertised as oil soluble, it is very old school though, I read it was developed in WW2. I've taken pumps apart before now from used engines and they've still had Vaseline in them, not that I think it was doing any harm, but it was till there.
I think that oil pressure is going to blast anything out of the way, it'll only get caught in low pressure areas and filters which doesn't matter, changing the filter is part of the running in process anyhow.

I'm thinking it'll be ok for crank bearings, but I wouldn't like to put it on bores, even if they claim you can. It's too thick and may mess up the break in procedure.
Vaseline in pumps? Oil, or water pumps?
Vaseline in an oil pump is a way of priming it, to suck up oil on first start - there are better ways - and a gearbox expert recommended Vaseline to me for securing needle rollers in place for assembly. In either case, the rationale was that vaseine will dissolve in oil, whereas a grease won't.

And I agree with you about Graphogen being the wrong thing in the bores, that will prevent the proper break-in of the rings. Even if it is oil-soluble.

John

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
227bhp said:
When you're in the business of building engines and sending them out to customers yes it is. They are often fitted by people who don't have the same knowledge as me, i've known people break engines before they even put the wheels on the car and also they can sit around for years in someone's garage before being fitted or even sold on. I can do without the hassle it causes, the finger pointing and indignity of throwing my work in the bin and starting all over again.
If a customer does not follow basic procedures for priming/starting a new engine, any failures related to that are 100% on them.
That does not require any specialist equipment or knowledge and is pretty much cost free.

If you are in any doubt about the competence of such people...simply do not sell an engine to them without the proviso you fit it and start it etc.

227bhp

Original Poster:

10,203 posts

127 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
If a customer does not follow basic procedures for priming/starting a new engine, any failures related to that are 100% on them.
That does not require any specialist equipment or knowledge and is pretty much cost free.

If you are in any doubt about the competence of such people...simply do not sell an engine to them without the proviso you fit it and start it etc.
Hmmm, when you find that perfect World where everything is simple and black or white let me know, i'd like to sample it for a while.
Until then i'll just have to battle on against human nature.

Sardonicus

18,928 posts

220 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
Clevite bearing guard for everything else and a wipe over the bores with thin oil only wink gone off Graphogen in recent years after cutting open a new builds break-in filter to find lot of it congregated around the pleats frown the oil pump strainer was similar and this was after 150 miles of hot use confused and I use it sparingly too scratchchin read a similar report recently nerd I think I will stick to the Clevite guard in future its like sticky honey, back in the day I use to just use left over cam lube for the bearings in my fast Ford 4 bangers cool I always prime the lube systems anyway I'm more concerned with the cam and lifters initial oiling TBH on push-rod motors



Edited by Sardonicus on Tuesday 5th December 10:46

Mignon

1,018 posts

88 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
I've found over the years that clean engine oil is next to useless at rust proofing anything. It runs off very quickly to leave only a miniscule film and then moisture gets in. In fact modern additive laced oil is somewhat hygroscopic and actually attracts moisture from the air. What mainly protects old engines that have been left sitting around for a long time is the dirty oil and varnish covering everything. Obviously this doesn't apply to freshly rebuilt engines where everything is clean. The best bet is to only build an engine when it's ready to be fitted.

If that's not possible then you want use an oil that doesn't just run off the components instantly. The best oils for this are mineral rather than synthetic, straight weight rather than multigrade and as thick as possible. SAE 250 gear oil or chainsaw lube are good choices.

227bhp

Original Poster:

10,203 posts

127 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
Sardonicus said:
Clevite bearing guard for everything else and a wipe over the bores with thin oil only wink gone off Graphogen in recent years after cutting open a new builds break-in filter to find lot of it congregated around the pleats frown the oil pump strainer was similar and this was after 150 miles of hot use confused and I use it sparingly too scratchchin read a similar report recently nerd I think I will stick to the Clevite guard in future its like sticky honey, back in the day I use to just use left over cam lube for the bearings in my fast Ford 4 bangers cool I always prime the lube systems anyway I'm more concerned with the cam and lifters initial oiling TBH on push-rod motors



Edited by Sardonicus on Tuesday 5th December 10:46
Thanks that's good info (Mignon too).
The Clevite lube is what made me start thinking of alternatives to the Millers which sounds like the same type of stuff, one of the suppliers had it on offer, but when I inquired they had none and suggested Graphogen. You might want to check out the price of Millers, it comes in 1ltrs and may be more cost effective.