Valve To Camshaft Clearances 1 Exhaust Too Big

Valve To Camshaft Clearances 1 Exhaust Too Big

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Penelope Stopit

Original Poster:

11,209 posts

108 months

Wednesday 16th May 2018
quotequote all
Engine is a Peugeot 1.9 diesel XUD

I have bought a second hand engine

In checking the clearances all the valves apart from one exhaust valve are within their tolerances, what puzzles me is that No7 exhaust valve that's out of tolerance has too big a clearance, I expected an exhaust valve clearance to tighten rather than go bigger.
I have only measured and adjusted the valve clearances on 6 engines in the past so am definitely lacking knowledge, the valve that's out is 5 thousandths over the max allowed gap.
See below manufacturers tolerances and my measured clearances

Inlets 15 +/- 5
Exhausts 30 +/- 5

1 Inlet 10 Minimum
2 Exhaust 30 Bang on
3 Exhaust 35 Maximum
4 inlet 15 Bang On
5 Inlet 20 Maximum
6 Exhaust 35 Maximum
7 Exhaust 40 **********XXXXX*************
8 Inlet 20 Maximum

As you can see there is only No 2 exhaust valve that's bang on and the other two exhaust valves are at their max clearance, inlets show No 4 bang on, No 1 at minimum and the other two at their maximum
Looking at all the clearances the majority are on the plus side of allowed

Is there possibly a reason for the clearances being more big than small?
Should I take the camshaft out and attempt to get all clearances bang on?
If it is suggested that I remove the camshaft.....Should I remove the cylinder head while i'm at it and fit a new gasket before re-measuring and adjusting the clearances

Moving on from the above....Should I remove a conrod or crank cap/shell to get an idea of the overall condition of the engine
Unfortunately I haven't heard this engine run but it does have a guarantee and it will be fitted within that guarantee time so I am able to return it if need be although I would very likely rebuild it (make one out of two) if there was a problem

I will be fitting new oil seals, cambelt, water pump and clutch before the swap

Opinions from those with much knowledge will be gladly received, thank you in advance

GreenV8S

30,149 posts

283 months

Wednesday 16th May 2018
quotequote all
I'm not familiar with the engine but I think that's SOHC and I guess it uses rockers. Maybe you have a worn rocker. Does it have hydraulic followers? That's another potential cause for variation. Could also be that the 'bad' valve simply hasn't receded as far as the others and the engine has been rebuilt to suit the average gap without addressing the valve variation

Penelope Stopit

Original Poster:

11,209 posts

108 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
This engine is buckets and shims over valve stems
The problem I have is a possible 3 days waiting for the correct size shims and would be removing the camshaft to close up one exhaust valve clearance that is 5 thou over the manufacturers tolerance figures, although some other clearances are at their max or min given tolerance figures they could well be ok for many thousands of miles
Decision time for this job but I am struggling to find out how important it is to have that one exhaust valve clearance reduced by so little to get it within tolerance

Lotobear

6,230 posts

127 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
...grind the shim on a surface grinder of oilstone to reduce it?

Penelope Stopit

Original Poster:

11,209 posts

108 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
Lotobear said:
...grind the shim on a surface grinder of oilstone to reduce it?
The problem is that the shim is too thin and having trawled the internet I can't find any shims for sale
It's all about how critical that exhaust valve being 5 over the Peugeot tolerance max figure is
Thanks for the tip for reducing the shim sizes, have you any tips for how to make shims bigger?

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
Stating the obvious but as it's a 2nd hand engine you have no way of knowing what's been done to it before.
Difficult to have much in the way of ideas as you haven't had the cam off to check.
Any damage to the top of the valve stems?
Wear to the shims themselves?

FWIW many years ago I reshimmed my Imp & finished up putting the original shims back in as it just didn't feel right - when I removed the old ones I'd taped them to a bit of card in the positions they were originally in.

ETA A very quick google - i'm just about to go to work - shows shims on ebay & a suggestion on a Pug forum that a franchised dealer should be able to get them although in my dealings with Peugeot dealers they carry little in stock but get it in the following day.
Might be worth signing up to Peugeot's Service box to get their part numbers. Link shows in French but go to the bottom right & you'll find a pop-up for other languages.
http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com/pages/index.j...



Edited by paintman on Thursday 17th May 08:34

227bhp

10,203 posts

127 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
Penelope Stopit said:
The problem is that the shim is too thin and having trawled the internet I can't find any shims for sale
It's all about how critical that exhaust valve being 5 over the Peugeot tolerance max figure is
Thanks for the tip for reducing the shim sizes, have you any tips for how to make shims bigger?
Put them in potting compost on the window cill and keep them watered.

It's up you to make the decision on how far you go, you have your own criteria to meet which you haven't mentioned. If you took the head off you would maybe find out what is causing it, it's possible lapping that one in will close up the clearance.

Penelope Stopit

Original Poster:

11,209 posts

108 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
227bhp said:
Put them in potting compost on the window cill and keep them watered.

It's up you to make the decision on how far you go, you have your own criteria to meet which you haven't mentioned. If you took the head off you would maybe find out what is causing it, it's possible lapping that one in will close up the clearance.
Ok Thanks for the help, If I can't shim it I will take the head off,and go from there, if I do manage to shim it I will fit and test and if there is a problem will remove the head
By this evening I may have changed my mind and decided to remove the head as the valve lapping is a very good option

Penelope Stopit

Original Poster:

11,209 posts

108 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
paintman said:
Stating the obvious but as it's a 2nd hand engine you have no way of knowing what's been done to it before.
Difficult to have much in the way of ideas as you haven't had the cam off to check.
Any damage to the top of the valve stems?
Wear to the shims themselves?

FWIW many years ago I reshimmed my Imp & finished up putting the original shims back in as it just didn't feel right - when I removed the old ones I'd taped them to a bit of card in the positions they were originally in.

ETA A very quick google - i'm just about to go to work - shows shims on ebay & a suggestion on a Pug forum that a franchised dealer should be able to get them although in my dealings with Peugeot dealers they carry little in stock but get it in the following day.
Might be worth signing up to Peugeot's Service box to get their part numbers. Link shows in French but go to the bottom right & you'll find a pop-up for other languages.
http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com/pages/index.j...



Edited by paintman on Thursday 17th May 08:34
Thanks, I will be removing the cam to delve deeper and may remove the head, I couldn't find shims at ebay, will take another look
Peugeot's Service box wouldn't let me in last time I tried but I do have the shim sizes with part numbers

RizzoTheRat

25,082 posts

191 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
Lotobear said:
...grind the shim on a surface grinder of oilstone to reduce it?
Don't shims have a hardened surface so shouldn't be ground down as there's then a risk of them wearing?


Are they an unusual size then? When I've done shims on my motorbikes I've had them delivered the next day from various e-bay seller as there seem to be 2 or 3 standard diameters for bike ones, so loads of people seem to be selling them.

DVandrews

1,315 posts

282 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
Rule of thumb on clearances.. are the followers tapping audibly? IIf so then the clearance has gone beyond what the initial lift ramp can handle. If that is the case then it is likely that wear will occur rapidly form the hammering, this can wipe out the cam lobe as well as the shim/follower. If it were me I would be reshimming and aiming for the nominal clearance on all the followers. Disassembly after careful measuring of the clearances and accurate measuring of the existing shims will tell you what you need, you m any be able to re-deploy one or two of them.

Dave

DVandrews

1,315 posts

282 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
RizzoTheRat said:
Don't shims have a hardened surface so shouldn't be ground down as there's then a risk of them wearing?


Are they an unusual size then? When I've done shims on my motorbikes I've had them delivered the next day from various e-bay seller as there seem to be 2 or 3 standard diameters for bike ones, so loads of people seem to be selling them.
Most shims are case hardened, excessive grinding will go through the hard shell, always grind lightly on both sides, this will minimise the possibility. The shims I have made are silver steel through hardened so grinding cannot harm the hardness level.

There are two types of shims in common use,

I) top of the valve type that sit under the follower on the valve tip and are located by the cap or by a lip on the shim, these don’t contact the cam lobe. bikes, BDAs ,DFVs and many 4 valve engines use these

Ii) biscuit type that sit in a recess on the top of the follower and run directly against the cam, these can add a fair bit of weight to the follower and ultimately limit lift as they reduce the working diameter of the follower, these can usually be replaced without removing the cam or follower. Alfasud, Coventry climax, duratec and quite a few other engines use these

Dave

227bhp

10,203 posts

127 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
DVandrews said:
There are two types of shims in common use,

I) top of the valve type that sit under the follower on the valve tip and are located by the cap or by a lip on the shim, these don’t contact the cam lobe. bikes, BDAs ,DFVs and many 4 valve engines use these

Ii) biscuit type that sit in a recess on the top of the follower and run directly against the cam, these can add a fair bit of weight to the follower and ultimately limit lift as they reduce the working diameter of the follower, these can usually be replaced without removing the cam or follower. Alfasud, Coventry climax, duratec and quite a few other engines use these

Dave
There are 3 really, the 3rd is used in a Duratec and it's the one piece bucket and shim type, I seem to remember Toyota use it as well as many others.

Penelope Stopit

Original Poster:

11,209 posts

108 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
DVandrews said:
Rule of thumb on clearances.. are the followers tapping audibly? IIf so then the clearance has gone beyond what the initial lift ramp can handle. If that is the case then it is likely that wear will occur rapidly form the hammering, this can wipe out the cam lobe as well as the shim/follower. If it were me I would be reshimming and aiming for the nominal clearance on all the followers. Disassembly after careful measuring of the clearances and accurate measuring of the existing shims will tell you what you need, you m any be able to re-deploy one or two of them.

Dave
Thank you
Ok having given this much thought and knowing the little I do know about the engine I have decided to do as above and see if I can get hold of a compression tester so as to be able to test the engine before fitting it as at least that will tell me if there is something drastic wrong with a valve, if I can't get shims I have no options apart from what 227bhp has suggested which is to take the head off and get valve grinding if all is well with the head,valves and their seats
Peugeot didn't send this engine out from the factory with these bad clearances. I know that the vehicle this engine came out of has had engine trouble and this could well be a completely different engine and if not the main diesel pump has definitely been changed because the immobiliser is built into the Bosch pump and has armour around it fastened with security bolts, someone has spent many hours removing the security bolts and armour so that the vehicles original immobiliser could be fitted to this pump, I doubt very much that it is only the pump that has been changed as they are close on bulletproof and the 2 metal cylinder head water pipes look like new, perhaps it's had a new cylinder head fitted to a replacement engine and that would account for someone incorrectly shimming it. Perhaps this is all wishfull thinking but.....

Time will tell

Penelope Stopit

Original Poster:

11,209 posts

108 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
RizzoTheRat said:
Lotobear said:
...grind the shim on a surface grinder of oilstone to reduce it?
Don't shims have a hardened surface so shouldn't be ground down as there's then a risk of them wearing?


Are they an unusual size then? When I've done shims on my motorbikes I've had them delivered the next day from various e-bay seller as there seem to be 2 or 3 standard diameters for bike ones, so loads of people seem to be selling them.
Thanks
Unfortunately I don't have the diameter of the shims, if someone does know what other engines these shims are fitted to or their diameter it will be of great help to me

RizzoTheRat

25,082 posts

191 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
Is there a decent Peugeot/Citroen owners club around, you usually find a few techie members of owners clubs who'll know that kind of thing.

As an aside I'm impressed anyone managed to break an XUD9, mine was bullet proof and had 196k miles on the clock when the rest of the car gave up the ghost.

Penelope Stopit

Original Poster:

11,209 posts

108 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
RizzoTheRat said:
Is there a decent Peugeot/Citroen owners club around, you usually find a few techie members of owners clubs who'll know that kind of thing.

As an aside I'm impressed anyone managed to break an XUD9, mine was bullet proof and had 196k miles on the clock when the rest of the car gave up the ghost.
Thanks, I will take a look later

Yes they are a great engine, I saw a post about one that was close on 1 million miles

My XUD has done 180K but has been badly neglected by me, I am now paying the price for having no time to open the bonnet

Mignon

1,018 posts

88 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
The shims for the XUD are the same as for the petrol XU5 and XU9 models. 13.42mm diameter available in 0.05mm thickness increments, they locate in the valve spring cap under the lifter bucket. They are readily available from motor factors like Ferraris, AE Autoparts in packs of 4. It's been 10 years since I last bought any but they were only about £1 plus Vat to the trade per pack with 50% trade discount. Probably £3 to a punter by now. They're a fortune from a main stealer of course so don't even think of going there. I've seen £11 per single shim from them back in the day.

I've built dozens of these in my race engine building days and I recommend 0.2mm inlet and 0.3mm exhaust clearances. Stone cold obviously.

I'd be more worried about the inlet with only 0.1mm clearance than the exhaust with 0.4mm. In fact 0.4mm was the recommended clearance for the petrol models on the exhaust but it's the same valve location design in the diesel with the same thermal expansion considerations.

https://www.enginepartsuk.net/sites/default/files/...

Page 237.

Set pistons to half way down the bores. Mark camshaft orientation with tippex. Remove cam caps evenly and be very sure not to get them mixed up as to where they go back or which way round!!! Fit one wrong and you'll snap it when you tighten the nuts down and the head is scrap as the caps are unique to each head and can't be replaced. Take a photo first and note the numbers stamped into the caps. Remove lifter buckets and shims with a magnet and keep them all in the correct order. Calculate new shim thicknesses required and make a list of what you need. Rebuild and recheck clearances. Easy job. Any Citreon/Peugeot engine builder or reconditioner will have a big box of the things and might swap you for the sizes you need for beer money. I have a box of every size somewhere if I can still find it.

Mignon

1,018 posts

88 months

Thursday 17th May 2018
quotequote all
Yep I still have my shim box with all the common sizes from about 2mm up to 3.5mm. I can probably help you out if you get stuck.

Penelope Stopit

Original Poster:

11,209 posts

108 months

Friday 18th May 2018
quotequote all
Mignon said:
The shims for the XUD are the same as for the petrol XU5 and XU9 models. 13.42mm diameter available in 0.05mm thickness increments, they locate in the valve spring cap under the lifter bucket. They are readily available from motor factors like Ferraris, AE Autoparts in packs of 4. It's been 10 years since I last bought any but they were only about £1 plus Vat to the trade per pack with 50% trade discount. Probably £3 to a punter by now. They're a fortune from a main stealer of course so don't even think of going there. I've seen £11 per single shim from them back in the day.

I've built dozens of these in my race engine building days and I recommend 0.2mm inlet and 0.3mm exhaust clearances. Stone cold obviously.

I'd be more worried about the inlet with only 0.1mm clearance than the exhaust with 0.4mm. In fact 0.4mm was the recommended clearance for the petrol models on the exhaust but it's the same valve location design in the diesel with the same thermal expansion considerations.

https://www.enginepartsuk.net/sites/default/files/...

Page 237.

Set pistons to half way down the bores. Mark camshaft orientation with tippex. Remove cam caps evenly and be very sure not to get them mixed up as to where they go back or which way round!!! Fit one wrong and you'll snap it when you tighten the nuts down and the head is scrap as the caps are unique to each head and can't be replaced. Take a photo first and note the numbers stamped into the caps. Remove lifter buckets and shims with a magnet and keep them all in the correct order. Calculate new shim thicknesses required and make a list of what you need. Rebuild and recheck clearances. Easy job. Any Citreon/Peugeot engine builder or reconditioner will have a big box of the things and might swap you for the sizes you need for beer money. I have a box of every size somewhere if I can still find it.
Thank you for all this information and your time spent looking for shims, on Saturday I will be going out on a shim search and taking the shims diameter measurement with me (Thanks again I was desperate for that diameter figure). I have been spoilt for choice in the past when working on engines in the UK, having moved on I now find myself struggling for the most simple of parts, I may break lucky on Saturday but am not banking on it, I don't want to be creating work for you but will contact you here if I am in deep trouble getting the replacement shims, I very much appreciate your offer

Working to your shared knowledge and experience I will be throwing the Peugeot tolerances out the door.... Inlets 15 +/- 5....Exhausts 30 +/- 5 and shimming the Inlets to 0.2mm and the exhausts to 0.3mm

I will take your instructions with me when I head off to remove the camshaft, I knew nothing about the cylinder head being a scrapper if a cap is damaged

Oops Sorry - the recipient doesn't permit emails

If I am stuck I won't be able to email you due to you not allowing emails