Engine mounts - chassis or cross-member?
Discussion
Anyone got an opinion on this?
I have a mk2 Escort and am fitting a Duratec.
There are two choices, a world-cup crossmember to which i can attach engine mounts or i can weld mounts on to the chassis. I'm not sure what the benefit of mounting it to the crossmember is. I figure that with chassis mounting i can use an off-the shelf prop and bellhousing with my gearbox and weld the mounts on exactly where they need to be.
I know the duratec really needs the rack a bit lower hence the new x-member but i'm not sure why you'd want the engine to be mounted off it?
I have a mk2 Escort and am fitting a Duratec.
There are two choices, a world-cup crossmember to which i can attach engine mounts or i can weld mounts on to the chassis. I'm not sure what the benefit of mounting it to the crossmember is. I figure that with chassis mounting i can use an off-the shelf prop and bellhousing with my gearbox and weld the mounts on exactly where they need to be.
I know the duratec really needs the rack a bit lower hence the new x-member but i'm not sure why you'd want the engine to be mounted off it?
Steve_D said:
Welding mounts to the chassis would constitute a modification to the chassis with resultant requirement for the vehicle to be IVA tested.
Modification of the subframe would not.
Steve
probably irrelevant here, but i prefer the engine mounted to the chassis, rather than to the cross member because that allows the engine to remain in place with the suspension removed. For a competition car (esp rally car) where damaged / broken parts need to be swapped out in a hurry, that makes a big difference to servicing, where an entire front suspension / cross member can be pre assembled, and swapped onto the car in minutes!Modification of the subframe would not.
Steve
Steve_D said:
Welding mounts to the chassis would constitute a modification to the chassis with resultant requirement for the vehicle to be IVA tested.
Modification of the subframe would not.
Steve
I would highly doubt that, and it makes little sense. FFS drilling a hole could be considered a modification to the chassis too.Modification of the subframe would not.
Steve
Some crash repairs I've seen would be far far more than a modification to the chassis, yet none of those need IVA's. And some of that work I have seen done has been worse than anything I'd even do ! lol
Steve_D said:
Welding mounts to the chassis would constitute a modification to the chassis with resultant requirement for the vehicle to be IVA tested.
Modification of the subframe would not.
Steve
Not by any stretch of the imagination would such a minor change to the engine mounting system would require an IVAModification of the subframe would not.
Steve
What a load off bollo....
PaulKemp said:
To add to this a modification of the rear suspension to turreted coil overs trailing links and panard rod does not require an IVA
By the letter of the law, i suspect that actually turreting the back of an Escort does in fact require an IVA. However, as it's a well proven modification, with 30 or 40 years of application history, i suspect that the authorities would turn a blind eye, so to speak. I also suspect that this is less likely to be the case for some "one off" mod cooked up in someones shed.
IVA rule states:
Now "structurally modified" is not defined, but in a court of law, i'd argue that a vehicle is structurally modified if there is any change to the significant load paths within that vehicle. Falling under that would therefore be suspension or steering mountings, Engine mountings, mods to the crash structure in any form etc etc
UK.GOV said:
c. Amateur Built
A vehicle is an amateur built vehicle if:
(a) the vehicle was, constructed, assembled or having previously been registered under the 1994 Act, structurally modified, for the personal use of a
person (R) who is a relevant individual,
and
(b) the whole, or a substantial part, of the construction, assembly or modification was carried out by R, by one or more relevant individuals acting on
behalf, and under the direction, of R or by R and one or more relevant individuals acting on behalf, and under the direction of R.
So, a pre-existing vehicle, once "structurally modified" becomes an Amateur Built vehicle and hence is subject to the IVA requirements.A vehicle is an amateur built vehicle if:
(a) the vehicle was, constructed, assembled or having previously been registered under the 1994 Act, structurally modified, for the personal use of a
person (R) who is a relevant individual,
and
(b) the whole, or a substantial part, of the construction, assembly or modification was carried out by R, by one or more relevant individuals acting on
behalf, and under the direction, of R or by R and one or more relevant individuals acting on behalf, and under the direction of R.
Now "structurally modified" is not defined, but in a court of law, i'd argue that a vehicle is structurally modified if there is any change to the significant load paths within that vehicle. Falling under that would therefore be suspension or steering mountings, Engine mountings, mods to the crash structure in any form etc etc
As a contradictory statement however:
UK.GOV said:
Exemptions from vehicle approval
You don’t need vehicle approval for:
heavy goods vehicles (more than 3,500kg maximum weight) over 25 years old
light goods vehicles (3,500kg maximum weight or less) over 10 years old
cars and minibuses with 8 passenger seats or less (not including the driver) over 10 years old
buses, coaches and minibuses with more than 8 passenger seats (not including the driver) built by a single manufacturer before 29 July 2010
buses, coaches and minibuses with more than 8 passenger seats (not including the driver) with different body and chassis manufacturers, made before 29 July 2011
tracked vehicles, for example a vehicle that runs on tracks rather than wheels
vehicles designed and constructed for use on construction sites, quarries, ports and airports
vehicles designed and constructed for and used by the armed services, fire and rescue forces, or used in maintaining public order
Make of that what you will!You don’t need vehicle approval for:
heavy goods vehicles (more than 3,500kg maximum weight) over 25 years old
light goods vehicles (3,500kg maximum weight or less) over 10 years old
cars and minibuses with 8 passenger seats or less (not including the driver) over 10 years old
buses, coaches and minibuses with more than 8 passenger seats (not including the driver) built by a single manufacturer before 29 July 2010
buses, coaches and minibuses with more than 8 passenger seats (not including the driver) with different body and chassis manufacturers, made before 29 July 2011
tracked vehicles, for example a vehicle that runs on tracks rather than wheels
vehicles designed and constructed for use on construction sites, quarries, ports and airports
vehicles designed and constructed for and used by the armed services, fire and rescue forces, or used in maintaining public order
Really...who the F are the government to call anyone amateur !!
And you could equally argue every single car that has been repaired after a crash, many repairs to structural parts, would also be very amateur. The work some bodyshops do is a disgrace and that also applies to some welding repairs for general MOT work.
And you could equally argue every single car that has been repaired after a crash, many repairs to structural parts, would also be very amateur. The work some bodyshops do is a disgrace and that also applies to some welding repairs for general MOT work.
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