Clutch / Gearbox issue
Discussion
I just wanted to throw something to the floor if I may...
Our 2013 Kia Ceed has over the last 8 months been developing an issue, whereby it crunches sometimes when changing gear ( normally 2/3/4). When you put it into reverse it crunches badly too, on occasion. Trying to put it into 1 when slowly rolling is almost impossible, the stick is stiff and non compliant. All i all the gearbox feels shocking, stiff and unco-operative.
I got the exact response from the Kia showroom that I expected, huge cost to investigate due to having to take the box apart ( £400 - 500 ) with no ability to claim under warranty due to it being a wear and tear item. One of their mechanics has taken the car for a 10 - 15 min drive and concluded with me that the clutch is fooked, the biting point is very low to the ground and the gear stick is volatile and stiff. However, it is still perfectly driveable and his suggestion was to keep it going until it needs the work doing. Cost of new clutch with them will be £750. Cost at a local independent will be roughly £600.
Meanwhile the wife takes it down to the country where her father states oh no, its not the clutch and my local garage will be able to sort it for you for much less. He is not a mechanic but is fairly good with his hands etc. He says when a clutch goes the biting point is high not low, and it will be something like something needing bleeding. She now wants to go down this route, however, I think what I have been told by Kia is correct. My initial pl an was to run it further until it needs doing then take it to some local indepedents to get quotes / sorted.
Am I off the mark with my thoughts?
Our 2013 Kia Ceed has over the last 8 months been developing an issue, whereby it crunches sometimes when changing gear ( normally 2/3/4). When you put it into reverse it crunches badly too, on occasion. Trying to put it into 1 when slowly rolling is almost impossible, the stick is stiff and non compliant. All i all the gearbox feels shocking, stiff and unco-operative.
I got the exact response from the Kia showroom that I expected, huge cost to investigate due to having to take the box apart ( £400 - 500 ) with no ability to claim under warranty due to it being a wear and tear item. One of their mechanics has taken the car for a 10 - 15 min drive and concluded with me that the clutch is fooked, the biting point is very low to the ground and the gear stick is volatile and stiff. However, it is still perfectly driveable and his suggestion was to keep it going until it needs the work doing. Cost of new clutch with them will be £750. Cost at a local independent will be roughly £600.
Meanwhile the wife takes it down to the country where her father states oh no, its not the clutch and my local garage will be able to sort it for you for much less. He is not a mechanic but is fairly good with his hands etc. He says when a clutch goes the biting point is high not low, and it will be something like something needing bleeding. She now wants to go down this route, however, I think what I have been told by Kia is correct. My initial pl an was to run it further until it needs doing then take it to some local indepedents to get quotes / sorted.
Am I off the mark with my thoughts?
Although it is more common for the clutch bite point to rise (and the clutch to eventually slip), a clutch can fail in other ways as well. It sounds like the clutch on this car is not disengaging fully, which suggests there is potentially a problem with the hydraulic system (master or slave cylinder), or the release mechanism (broken fingers or springs).
The clutch is considered a wear and tear item, and is normally excluded from warranties on that basis, but this specific fault may not necessarily be wear and tear related. Unfortunately, the only way to find out is to remove the transmission, and have a look. This is a labour intensive exercise, as you say, and getting any sort of clutch claim through a warranty, even if it isn't wear related, is normally next to impossible. If it were me, I'd take it to a good independent and get a new clutch put in it which, unless it's a master cylinder fault, or an external hydraulic leak, is ultimately what it's probably going to need. What's the mileage on the car?
Just be aware that driving the car with a clutch that isn't disengaging will not do the transmission any good at all, so I'd get it seen to quickly. Your father-in-law's advice re clutch failure is not necessarily correct though.
The clutch is considered a wear and tear item, and is normally excluded from warranties on that basis, but this specific fault may not necessarily be wear and tear related. Unfortunately, the only way to find out is to remove the transmission, and have a look. This is a labour intensive exercise, as you say, and getting any sort of clutch claim through a warranty, even if it isn't wear related, is normally next to impossible. If it were me, I'd take it to a good independent and get a new clutch put in it which, unless it's a master cylinder fault, or an external hydraulic leak, is ultimately what it's probably going to need. What's the mileage on the car?
Just be aware that driving the car with a clutch that isn't disengaging will not do the transmission any good at all, so I'd get it seen to quickly. Your father-in-law's advice re clutch failure is not necessarily correct though.
Sounds like the clutch isn’t fully disengaging, so yes, it might just want bleeding, or no, it might be something more serious.
I’d not be driving it for too long though, it’s not going to do the gearbox, clutch cover or flywheel any good while you are still using it.
Get a decent independent to have a look.
I’d not be driving it for too long though, it’s not going to do the gearbox, clutch cover or flywheel any good while you are still using it.
Get a decent independent to have a look.
You have tried to find and failed to get, good advice.
The problem, definitely, is the clutch. It is NOT the gearbox itself. When pressing down the clutch - it isn't applying enough force onto the pressure plate, which in turn is supposed to free up the clutch centre plate. In effect, you are trying to change gear without using the clutch pedal. This WILL result in the crashing of gears.
Solution?. If it has an hydraulic clutch action - it sounds like something is wrong with the hydraulics. Either the master cylinder, or the slave cylinder.
If it doesn't have an hydraulic clutch - it probably has a cable system. Something is amiss with the cable action, and/or the clutch pedal itself.
Any mechanic worth his salt, (NOT a main dealer), will be able to diagnose it properly.
Do NOT get sucked into having the gearbox overhauled - it is unlikely to need anything doing to it at all. The garage WILL have to remove the gearbox in order to get access to the clutch.
If it turns out to be an hydraulic/clutch cable problem - there will no need to remove the gearbox at all.
The problem, definitely, is the clutch. It is NOT the gearbox itself. When pressing down the clutch - it isn't applying enough force onto the pressure plate, which in turn is supposed to free up the clutch centre plate. In effect, you are trying to change gear without using the clutch pedal. This WILL result in the crashing of gears.
Solution?. If it has an hydraulic clutch action - it sounds like something is wrong with the hydraulics. Either the master cylinder, or the slave cylinder.
If it doesn't have an hydraulic clutch - it probably has a cable system. Something is amiss with the cable action, and/or the clutch pedal itself.
Any mechanic worth his salt, (NOT a main dealer), will be able to diagnose it properly.
Do NOT get sucked into having the gearbox overhauled - it is unlikely to need anything doing to it at all. The garage WILL have to remove the gearbox in order to get access to the clutch.
If it turns out to be an hydraulic/clutch cable problem - there will no need to remove the gearbox at all.
Agree sounds like a hydraulic leak - checked the levels? Keep them topped up.
Other issues may be related to clutch fork, friction plate, release bearing. All "clutch" and except the fork, all wear and tear.
I would check the oil levels and check whether "pumping" the clutch pedal makes a difference, temporarily at least, till you get the clutch sorted whatever the problem ends up being.
Cant' see a gearbox problem at all and the "low bite point" noted is confirmation of a clutch issue.
Other issues may be related to clutch fork, friction plate, release bearing. All "clutch" and except the fork, all wear and tear.
I would check the oil levels and check whether "pumping" the clutch pedal makes a difference, temporarily at least, till you get the clutch sorted whatever the problem ends up being.
Cant' see a gearbox problem at all and the "low bite point" noted is confirmation of a clutch issue.
datum77 said:
If it turns out to be an hydraulic/clutch cable problem - there will no need to remove the gearbox at all.
Unless it's fitted with a concentric slave cylinder, which will require the box to come out if that's the part that's gone. I had hydraulic failure of a concentric slave on a Scenic II. 9 hours of labour later..... The same thing on a car with a conventional external cylinder would take all of 20 minutes. if you can get 1 ok when stopped but its stiff to go in when rolling then i would have thought its release related. gearbox is probably absolutely fine.
might be a 10p plastic clip on the end of a cable thats stopping you fully disengaging the clutch or air in the system if the clutch is hydraulic.
start simple. dont have the box removed just yet. i might have missed it but a clutch by and large should be good for at least 80k. i'm betting that a 2013 Kia Ceed has nt done too many miles and being Korean i reckon the mechanicals are going to solid.
has the pedal gone stiff or mega light? have you noticed any cnage to effort required to depress it?
lastly are there signs of fluid under the car in that gearbox area if its not a cable operated clutch?
check the level of fluid if hydraulic - has it dropped below the minimum level on the reservoir? your owners handbook will tell you where to find this if you are not that great with cars.
might be a 10p plastic clip on the end of a cable thats stopping you fully disengaging the clutch or air in the system if the clutch is hydraulic.
start simple. dont have the box removed just yet. i might have missed it but a clutch by and large should be good for at least 80k. i'm betting that a 2013 Kia Ceed has nt done too many miles and being Korean i reckon the mechanicals are going to solid.
has the pedal gone stiff or mega light? have you noticed any cnage to effort required to depress it?
lastly are there signs of fluid under the car in that gearbox area if its not a cable operated clutch?
check the level of fluid if hydraulic - has it dropped below the minimum level on the reservoir? your owners handbook will tell you where to find this if you are not that great with cars.
Edited by ToothbrushMan on Tuesday 28th August 10:54
I have just had that exact problem in my 2013 Kia Ceed diesel.
Reverse grinding, first gear very stiff, all other gears notchy, 75k miles - yet no slippage whatsoever. Kia had a look and then quoted £1300 for a new clutch.
Local (well-regarded) mechanic had a look, suggested/tried bleeding clutch and checking for leaks to no avail, ended up replacing the clutch which cured the problem instantly. £419.95 all-in, including diagnostic. Bit of a bargain I think. This was last Tuesday, so very recent indeed.
Edit: My mechanic says the reverse grinding noise sounds a lot worse than it actually is, so don't worry too much about that - it's more embarrassing than damaging!
Reverse grinding, first gear very stiff, all other gears notchy, 75k miles - yet no slippage whatsoever. Kia had a look and then quoted £1300 for a new clutch.
Local (well-regarded) mechanic had a look, suggested/tried bleeding clutch and checking for leaks to no avail, ended up replacing the clutch which cured the problem instantly. £419.95 all-in, including diagnostic. Bit of a bargain I think. This was last Tuesday, so very recent indeed.
Edit: My mechanic says the reverse grinding noise sounds a lot worse than it actually is, so don't worry too much about that - it's more embarrassing than damaging!
Edited by OpulentBob on Tuesday 28th August 10:55
From what you've said, I'd bet a good amount of money the clutch friction material condition is OK, so there is no reason for the clutch to slip.
Your problem lies with the clutch release mechanism or hydraulics rather than the friction surfaces (the "wearable" bits), but it's almost certainly a clutch problem nonetheless.
Although there are no obvious leaks, have you checked the clutch fluid level? If there is a weep on the slave cylinder, depending on the type of slave cylinder fitted, the fluid won't pour onto the road, but will gather in the transmission bell housing and then leak when the car is in motion.
Next step though is to get the car to a good independent garage who will be able to narrow this down for you in a very short space of time, and repair it much cheaper than a main dealer.
Your problem lies with the clutch release mechanism or hydraulics rather than the friction surfaces (the "wearable" bits), but it's almost certainly a clutch problem nonetheless.
Although there are no obvious leaks, have you checked the clutch fluid level? If there is a weep on the slave cylinder, depending on the type of slave cylinder fitted, the fluid won't pour onto the road, but will gather in the transmission bell housing and then leak when the car is in motion.
Next step though is to get the car to a good independent garage who will be able to narrow this down for you in a very short space of time, and repair it much cheaper than a main dealer.
Edited by Limpet on Tuesday 28th August 15:43
Cheers all - pedal feels fairly normal for a clutch, on close scrutiny one could argue it is stiffer than normal but it has not caused me any concern in itself, I am a professional driver and drive a variety of vehicles, this one "feels" but it is the crunching ( which does happen once gear has been engaged and clutch pedal is being released ).
I have now got a price of £537 from a local garage, broken down for me. Clutch kit costs 137 apparently, labour being 280 - with some fluids on top.
I have now got a price of £537 from a local garage, broken down for me. Clutch kit costs 137 apparently, labour being 280 - with some fluids on top.
But you probably still do not need a clutch.
And if you do go in there to install a clutch...you'd probably need a new DMF too, more expense unless you're either very lucky or the car does not have one, which would be rare for a diesel these days
As everyone here has said, it is more likely a release mech issue, and certainly that should be investigated first before going nuts and ripping the box out for a new clutch.
And if you do go in there to install a clutch...you'd probably need a new DMF too, more expense unless you're either very lucky or the car does not have one, which would be rare for a diesel these days
As everyone here has said, it is more likely a release mech issue, and certainly that should be investigated first before going nuts and ripping the box out for a new clutch.
Check that the flywheel pilot bearing is replaced as part of the clutch job
The part itself costs no more than a fiver, but they can be awkward to remove, so are sometimes ignored
If it subsequently grenades or simply gets a bit sticky, you will have the same problem again, with the clutch not releasing and gears difficult to select
If you are really unlucky then you could end up with this sort of damage
Sadly I only had myself to blame as I was responsible for overlooking the pilot bearing
The part itself costs no more than a fiver, but they can be awkward to remove, so are sometimes ignored
If it subsequently grenades or simply gets a bit sticky, you will have the same problem again, with the clutch not releasing and gears difficult to select
If you are really unlucky then you could end up with this sort of damage
Sadly I only had myself to blame as I was responsible for overlooking the pilot bearing
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