fuel pump primes 17 times then stops, engine won't run
Discussion
Toilet Duck said:
stevieturbo said:
although who on earth is using crappy worm drive clips on those fuel lines. Totally the wrong type of clip.
Ariel Motors finest 
@td, do those clips in the picture hold the fuel filter in place? AND whats your clearance between the single black fuel hose and the braided pipe??
Kccv23highliftcam said:
What would you recommend stevieturbo [gen question btw]
@td, do those clips in the picture hold the fuel filter in place? AND whats your clearance between the single black fuel hose and the braided pipe??
These are the correct style of clamp for smaller diameter hose ( or OEM style spring clips, but they're bloody hateful ). Readily available online or any decent factors should carry them@td, do those clips in the picture hold the fuel filter in place? AND whats your clearance between the single black fuel hose and the braided pipe??
Which oddly you can see used elsewhere on where appear to be less critical areas.
Although given the random hoses, routing and how some are blocked off ( with a bolt...) I really doubt everything there is as Ariel supplied it ? At least I'd hope not, as they sure arent cheap !
Edited by stevieturbo on Thursday 20th September 20:51
Just to answer the above questions/points:
Yes, the brackets visible in the pics are what the fuel filter and red regulator clip into. I removed them and pulled a lot of the hoses about trying to get access. Everything is "neater" when put back correctly. Ideally you need to be an experienced farmyard vet in order to stuff your arm up the tight space to gain access to the filter etc
The worm clamps on the fuel filter are original.
The crimped on clips are original.
The other (stevieturbo correct clips ) on the braided lines etc were fitted by myself when I fitted an oil catch can. They are Mikalor clips.
The bolt used to block the vaccum hose was fitted by yours truly as that vaccum point is no longer needed with the oil catch can (it previously connected to the PCV valve). Whats the correct method of blocking off such a hose then? The factory block off a redundant hose on the expansion bottle using a bolt so I assumed it was "ok"?
Yes, the brackets visible in the pics are what the fuel filter and red regulator clip into. I removed them and pulled a lot of the hoses about trying to get access. Everything is "neater" when put back correctly. Ideally you need to be an experienced farmyard vet in order to stuff your arm up the tight space to gain access to the filter etc
The worm clamps on the fuel filter are original.
The crimped on clips are original.
The other (stevieturbo correct clips
) on the braided lines etc were fitted by myself when I fitted an oil catch can. They are Mikalor clips.The bolt used to block the vaccum hose was fitted by yours truly as that vaccum point is no longer needed with the oil catch can (it previously connected to the PCV valve). Whats the correct method of blocking off such a hose then? The factory block off a redundant hose on the expansion bottle using a bolt so I assumed it was "ok"?
Holy thread resurrection!
Right, my car is currently at a reputable specialist and authorised dealer in Hondata ECU's. They are unable to solve this issue. They have swapped the ECU for a known working one, fitted a new immobiliser (I purchased a new one from Ariel after calling them and explaining the symptoms, it's a "plug and play" unit), checked all relays etc, removed fuel pump from circuit, and it's still producing the same symptoms i.e. fuel pump primes 17 times and then stops (with the fuel pump disconnected it obviously doesn't run but the relay/control module still clicks 17 times. They suspect it may be a wiring issue somewhere i.e. a short. In my mind this would be strange due to the consistent 17 times that the pump primes, it's as if something is "telling" the pump to prime that specific number of times but I have been advised that there is nothing within the ECU that could do this.
Any of the resident experts on here have any further suggestions before I curl up in a foetal position in a dark corner?
Cheers
Right, my car is currently at a reputable specialist and authorised dealer in Hondata ECU's. They are unable to solve this issue. They have swapped the ECU for a known working one, fitted a new immobiliser (I purchased a new one from Ariel after calling them and explaining the symptoms, it's a "plug and play" unit), checked all relays etc, removed fuel pump from circuit, and it's still producing the same symptoms i.e. fuel pump primes 17 times and then stops (with the fuel pump disconnected it obviously doesn't run but the relay/control module still clicks 17 times. They suspect it may be a wiring issue somewhere i.e. a short. In my mind this would be strange due to the consistent 17 times that the pump primes, it's as if something is "telling" the pump to prime that specific number of times but I have been advised that there is nothing within the ECU that could do this.
Any of the resident experts on here have any further suggestions before I curl up in a foetal position in a dark corner?
Cheers
stevieturbo said:
And can Ariel provide you with a wiring schematic ?
I'm going to call them tomorrow, but I suspect they might not divulge the wiring diagrams as that wouldn't necessarily make good business sense. The place it's currently at, and who have experience of working on Atoms, don't have access to Ariel's wiring schematics
Penelope Stopit said:
Was it those that said there is nothing in the ECU to cause this that also said they suspect a wiring fault
As you've already mentioned.....17 times......always 17 times........wiring fault no way
This ^ come on 17 times always how can that be a wiring issue EVER As you've already mentioned.....17 times......always 17 times........wiring fault no way
bloody hell at least come back to you with a tangible possibility for the cause , there must be another control relay/module to do this 17 cycle thing if its been confirmed that the Immobilizer and ECM have been substituted with known good units 
the only ECM/ECU I know of that cycles the FP output repeatedly if there is a config/conflict error is the Megasquirt after market unit this is just an example , I am not familiar with the Hondata unit however Edited by Sardonicus on Tuesday 30th October 17:14
Sardonicus said:
This ^ come on 17 times always how can that be a wiring issue EVER bloody hell at least come back to you with a tangible possibility for the cause , there must be another control relay/module to do this 17 cycle thing if its been confirmed that the Immobilizer and ECM have been substituted with known good units the only ECM/ECU I know of that cycles the FP output repeatedly if there is a config/conflict error is the Megasquirt after market unit this is just an example , I am not familiar with the Hondata unit however
I know, I know bloody hell at least come back to you with a tangible possibility for the cause , there must be another control relay/module to do this 17 cycle thing if its been confirmed that the Immobilizer and ECM have been substituted with known good units the only ECM/ECU I know of that cycles the FP output repeatedly if there is a config/conflict error is the Megasquirt after market unit this is just an example , I am not familiar with the Hondata unit however The thing is, I've gone to an authorised Hondata ECU dealer specialising in Honda engines so would assume they are ideal for this type of fault. This problem is beyond my technical ability. I've been told it's not the ECU, it's not the immobiliser, it's not the fuel pump. Granted, they haven't changed that Freelander "fuel pump relay module" but I already tried swapping that with another one as per earlier in this thread, so it's highly unlikely it's that. I also don't get why the "throttle pedal relay" clicks 17 times as well. It's doing my head in and now I'm back to square one.
jeremyc said:
Did you determine whether there is a fuel pressure regulator, and if so tried swapping it out?
The place it's at advise the red thing is a fuel pressure regulator and that it has a spring operated diaphragm type thing that if overcome by excess fuel pressure let's by and allows the fuel to return to the tank. They tell me it's not causing the issue. Toilet Duck said:
jeremyc said:
Did you determine whether there is a fuel pressure regulator, and if so tried swapping it out?
The place it's at advise the red thing is a fuel pressure regulator and that it has a spring operated diaphragm type thing that if overcome by excess fuel pressure let's by and allows the fuel to return to the tank. They tell me it's not causing the issue. I wonder how many posters now ask you why is there a Freelander relay fitted?
I wonder if someone has cocked the job up rather than wire the ECU and relay's correctly? If the Freelander relay has a timer anything could happen
I could be wrong but...........
Does this look like what you should have, I know nothing about your engine, this is apparently for a K20a
I don't understand why there is a Freelander relay wired and this could be causing the problem
If the diagram is for your engine there should be a Main Relay and Fuel Pump Relay, these relays are standard relays with no timers, how it works is
Switch ignition to ECU
ECU switches negative to Main Relay winding and it activates because Main Relay has permanent supply to the other end of its winding
Main Relay switches supply to Fuel Pump Relay winding
ECU switches negative to other end of the Fuel Pump Relay winding and it activates
ECU is programmed to time in time out fuel pump relay at ignition on and also has a crank signal for the pump hold-in operation
ECU keeps Fuel Pump Relay energised when engine is running
From here https://www.hondata.com/?_route_=tech-k20-swap-wir...
I wonder if someone has cocked the job up rather than wire the ECU and relay's correctly? If the Freelander relay has a timer anything could happen
I could be wrong but...........
Does this look like what you should have, I know nothing about your engine, this is apparently for a K20a
I don't understand why there is a Freelander relay wired and this could be causing the problem
If the diagram is for your engine there should be a Main Relay and Fuel Pump Relay, these relays are standard relays with no timers, how it works is
Switch ignition to ECU
ECU switches negative to Main Relay winding and it activates because Main Relay has permanent supply to the other end of its winding
Main Relay switches supply to Fuel Pump Relay winding
ECU switches negative to other end of the Fuel Pump Relay winding and it activates
ECU is programmed to time in time out fuel pump relay at ignition on and also has a crank signal for the pump hold-in operation
ECU keeps Fuel Pump Relay energised when engine is running
From here https://www.hondata.com/?_route_=tech-k20-swap-wir...
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