New engine?!? Help!!! VW POLO 1.2 S
Discussion
jessie81 said:
Does anyone know if supermarket fuel would cause piston ring seal to fault? This is what VW are blaming and I just dont know if this is possible, everyone I know uses this and Ive used it in numerous cars much old than this one and had no problems.
I would say the chances of this are almost zero.
jessie81 said:
Does anyone know if supermarket fuel would cause piston ring seal to fault? This is what VW are blaming and I just dont know if this is possible, everyone I know uses this and Ive used it in numerous cars much old than this one and had no problems.
Im not qualified, nor have I seen the engine, to say that it was not caused by such fuel.But I would agree and say it is 99.9% unlikely. Your fault was a sudden non start, not a progressive engine performance issue.
It is a classic timing chain jumping issue, and internal damage could have been caused by such. If, and it would be very difficult to prove , any damage MAY have been caused by the recovery people attempting to run the engine on the "easy start" type spray used.
Of all the 5 or 6 similar polo instances I have been involved in with jumped chains/timing issues, NO engine damage has ocurred. Obviously all of those could have been just lucky, but I doubt it.
Eta
And every 1 of those I have been involved in, have all been a sudden non start issue, with no prior performance issues.
Edited by Coilspring on Monday 22 April 22:25
Coilspring said:
Firstly, I think it is likely that your engine has a timing chain, not a timing belt, but similar consequences can happen. Im assuming it is a 3 cylinder engine, which is borne out by the fact 3 sealing rings were fitted. But I have no idea what these rings actually are.
The timing chain tensioners on these engines (if yours is a chain engine), are oil fed under pressure and it is essential the right oil, and oil level is kept correct. Loss of oil, and or pressure coupled with wear in the chain can easily let the chain jump a tooth or more and then not start. Changing the chain and tensioner is not an everyday job, but it is not horrendous and can usually be changed for around 350/400 possibly more in expensive labour locations.
I have known a few of these where new chain, tensioner and guides need fitting, and have never encountered 1 that suffered internal engine damage. That is not to say it is not possible.
The alarm bells for me though is that the breakdown people suspected fuel pump issues, and an independant, and vw suggests compression issues. The symptoms for these are totally different. A slipped chain will give poor compression figures.
I would suggest asking another independant for another opinion, I would strongly suspect a timing issue, and it is a 5 minute job on the 12v engines and 30 minute job on 6v engines to check.
When the problem happened was there excessive rattling preceding it, or bangs, knocks, smoke etc? Was there a lot of rattling (best described as sounding like a bag of spanners), for some time prior ?
Rebuilding the engine if it is major internal damage is unlikely to be worth it, but I think a good second hand engine should be available for a lot less than quoted by vw. Its a 6/7 year old car, with the best will in the world it doesnt warrant a full price vw engine.
Difficult to give a proper opinion without looking, but I would want another opinion on the timing marks before accepting the information given to you so far. Bank holiday weeked doesnt help though.
This was mainly the AZQ engine, and the OP wont have one of those I would have thought. Even so, maybe VW didnt learn from this engine and still fit pushbike chains and toffee guides to their later models too !The timing chain tensioners on these engines (if yours is a chain engine), are oil fed under pressure and it is essential the right oil, and oil level is kept correct. Loss of oil, and or pressure coupled with wear in the chain can easily let the chain jump a tooth or more and then not start. Changing the chain and tensioner is not an everyday job, but it is not horrendous and can usually be changed for around 350/400 possibly more in expensive labour locations.
I have known a few of these where new chain, tensioner and guides need fitting, and have never encountered 1 that suffered internal engine damage. That is not to say it is not possible.
The alarm bells for me though is that the breakdown people suspected fuel pump issues, and an independant, and vw suggests compression issues. The symptoms for these are totally different. A slipped chain will give poor compression figures.
I would suggest asking another independant for another opinion, I would strongly suspect a timing issue, and it is a 5 minute job on the 12v engines and 30 minute job on 6v engines to check.
When the problem happened was there excessive rattling preceding it, or bangs, knocks, smoke etc? Was there a lot of rattling (best described as sounding like a bag of spanners), for some time prior ?
Rebuilding the engine if it is major internal damage is unlikely to be worth it, but I think a good second hand engine should be available for a lot less than quoted by vw. Its a 6/7 year old car, with the best will in the world it doesnt warrant a full price vw engine.
Difficult to give a proper opinion without looking, but I would want another opinion on the timing marks before accepting the information given to you so far. Bank holiday weeked doesnt help though.
Edited by Coilspring on Thursday 18th April 19:00
None genuine parts for a AZQ can be had for £100, plus locking tools and its a days job for someone who knows what they are doing (ie it took me two to take to bits and half a day to put back together!). I imagine later engines are similar even though they are the other way round
Coilspring said:
And every 1 of those I have been involved in, have all been a sudden non start issue, with no prior performance issues.
Yep, exactly the same on the lads 1.2 polo, just refused to start after running fine. Fixed and still great two years later.Edited by Coilspring on Monday 22 April 22:25
Gary C said:
This was mainly the AZQ engine, and the OP wont have one of those I would have thought. Even so, maybe VW didnt learn from this engine and still fit pushbike chains and toffee guides to their later models too !
None genuine parts for a AZQ can be had for £100, plus locking tools and its a days job for someone who knows what they are doing (ie it took me two to take to bits and half a day to put back together!). I imagine later engines are similar even though they are the other way round
Later versions are very similar set up, and still made of toffee. The main difference is the oil pump position.None genuine parts for a AZQ can be had for £100, plus locking tools and its a days job for someone who knows what they are doing (ie it took me two to take to bits and half a day to put back together!). I imagine later engines are similar even though they are the other way round
I allow 1 day for these, but normally can be done by mid afternoon.
Main point though, the symptoms of the fault described sounds like a chain jumping issue. Cannot possibly see how it can be attributed to a petrol fault. It's a polo, it's expected to be run on supermarket fuel.
jessie81 said:
Thanks again everyone, can't tell you how much you've all helped. Have emailed dealership with points raised here. Watch this space!
IF the timing chain has jumped, it should be easy to diagnose. On my engine, you just popped of a couple of covers on the end of the cams and checked the alignment of the cams. they should be able to do this easily (think it costs about £90 for a diag session)Gary C said:
IF the timing chain has jumped, it should be easy to diagnose. On my engine, you just popped of a couple of covers on the end of the cams and checked the alignment of the cams. they should be able to do this easily (think it costs about £90 for a diag session)
An hours labour (maximum) on the 3 cylinder engines, and that is very generous. Same on the later (4 cyl) engines too.jessie81 said:
Thanks again everyone, can't tell you how much you've all helped. Have emailed dealership with points raised here. Watch this space!
Good luck, keep us updated.Out of interest what part of the country are you ? Don't be too specific in case it identifies the dealer etc, because they don't sound fully honest.
Following email to VW manager is now involved.
They have said that the timing chain cannot jump on this engine it can only stretch. They have checked and it has not stretched. Technician is adamant something not right with piston.
They called to ask my permission to take the n-caps off the engine so that they can see exactly what has happened.
They have said that the timing chain cannot jump on this engine it can only stretch. They have checked and it has not stretched. Technician is adamant something not right with piston.
They called to ask my permission to take the n-caps off the engine so that they can see exactly what has happened.
UPDATE
VW have responded and said that;
1. The chain had not jumped and the timing was not out on the vehicle when checked with their locating pins, and it checked out perfectly.
2. They have opened up the cylinders to have a look and there are no hot spots or any other signs of damage and can supply images of this.
They state that they believe it is the piston seals that are the issue as when a wet compression test was carried out the compression improved significantly from dry compression test results.
They are going to look into VW goodwill, but am not holding my breath and am basically no further forward. With the above being the same as stated before they agreed to look at the engine again.
Am going to email and request all evidence, although they do not offer evidence of piston seal problems or an answer as to why this failed and why the problem was not degenerative (as you guys have indicated it should be with this issue) instead being a immediate non-start problem. Is this something that can be shown in a photograph?
Any thoughts gratefully received.
Thanks again all.
VW have responded and said that;
1. The chain had not jumped and the timing was not out on the vehicle when checked with their locating pins, and it checked out perfectly.
2. They have opened up the cylinders to have a look and there are no hot spots or any other signs of damage and can supply images of this.
They state that they believe it is the piston seals that are the issue as when a wet compression test was carried out the compression improved significantly from dry compression test results.
They are going to look into VW goodwill, but am not holding my breath and am basically no further forward. With the above being the same as stated before they agreed to look at the engine again.
Am going to email and request all evidence, although they do not offer evidence of piston seal problems or an answer as to why this failed and why the problem was not degenerative (as you guys have indicated it should be with this issue) instead being a immediate non-start problem. Is this something that can be shown in a photograph?
Any thoughts gratefully received.
Thanks again all.
Have the supplied photo evidence of the timing ? Quite easy to show on photo, or to you personally.
I have to say the sudden failure being down to piston seals, (do they mean piston rings?), is so unlikely that I would ask for them to state that, their suspicions and reasonings, in clear writing.
But it is such an unlikey fault, reason that I think you need another opinion, even if that costs some money to arrange.
The bit that does concern me, that could have some part of the issue is the use of "engine start spray" used by the breakdown people.
There is no, normal, reason, why any such internal engine issue could happen without poor running, performance or starting issues happening before sudden failure to start.
Do they still maintain supermarket fuel being the issue? If not, why not? But, be honest to yourself, could you have misfuelled it with diesel or anything?
I have to say the sudden failure being down to piston seals, (do they mean piston rings?), is so unlikely that I would ask for them to state that, their suspicions and reasonings, in clear writing.
But it is such an unlikey fault, reason that I think you need another opinion, even if that costs some money to arrange.
The bit that does concern me, that could have some part of the issue is the use of "engine start spray" used by the breakdown people.
There is no, normal, reason, why any such internal engine issue could happen without poor running, performance or starting issues happening before sudden failure to start.
Do they still maintain supermarket fuel being the issue? If not, why not? But, be honest to yourself, could you have misfuelled it with diesel or anything?
Thanks for your reply.
I have emailed and requested evidence of everything just now.
I have, hand on heart, never misfuelled the car. :-) .
They have not mentioned the problem being supermarket fuel since I said how ridiculous that was, but have not offered up any alternative cause. Again I have requested that in the email sent just now.
Thanks again.
I have emailed and requested evidence of everything just now.
I have, hand on heart, never misfuelled the car. :-) .
They have not mentioned the problem being supermarket fuel since I said how ridiculous that was, but have not offered up any alternative cause. Again I have requested that in the email sent just now.
Thanks again.
jessie81 said:
Thanks for your reply.
I have emailed and requested evidence of everything just now.
I have, hand on heart, never misfuelled the car. :-) .
They have not mentioned the problem being supermarket fuel since I said how ridiculous that was, but have not offered up any alternative cause. Again I have requested that in the email sent just now.
Thanks again.
See what they say.I have emailed and requested evidence of everything just now.
I have, hand on heart, never misfuelled the car. :-) .
They have not mentioned the problem being supermarket fuel since I said how ridiculous that was, but have not offered up any alternative cause. Again I have requested that in the email sent just now.
Thanks again.
Have just re read your previous post, and my apologies, I missed an important point.
They say they have opened up the cylinders? How? What have they done? Have they dismantled the engine? With your permission?
jessie81 said:
Hi,
I dont know, sorry. Asked in the email I sent.
Is it not possible to open up the cylinders?
Yes, of course but you are starting to strip down the engine at that point. I dont know, sorry. Asked in the email I sent.
Is it not possible to open up the cylinders?
You can take the head off, but quite a lot of ancillary bits also need to come off and any garage knows that once they start stripping down, they need to have payment lined up, or the car will end up, in bits, taking up space while the argument on who has to pay rages.
If you want them to start stripping it down, you will probably need someone (or you) to agree you will pay.
jessie81 said:
Hi,
I dont know, sorry. Asked in the email I sent.
Is it not possible to open up the cylinders?
Any more news? As Gary has said, to open up the cylinders is major work, you need to be sure who is footing the bill.I dont know, sorry. Asked in the email I sent.
Is it not possible to open up the cylinders?
If they have opened it up, they still wont be able to see the piston rings (is that what they refer to as piston seals?). I cannot understand what opening up the cylinders will prove, or not.
But when they do get to that point, you really need to be asking, in writing, exactly why internal engine damage has (if it has), ocurred from a sudden non start, if no perfornance or starting issues previously.
Be careful they don't try and hold you over a barrell if your engine is dismantled and they present you with a big bill for no achievement.
Hi all thanks for your replies.
No further forward except that a master technician at vw is looking at it tomorrow to make sure they havent missed anything.My concern is that now the engine is in bits as many vw technicians as they want can look at the engine but there will be no evidence of the original diagnosis - the timing chain!
The only cost mentioned so far was the initial work for the timing belt. Which I was told would be covered as that was the issue. This was probably based on my mechanics opinion and not theirs but either way they said it was covered before I gave my permission.
They said it was the 'piston ring sealing' that has faulted. I think opening up the cylinders was intended to check for any other internal engine damage.
Initially they said internal damage was caused by using supermarket fuel but when I questioned this they are now stating I am simply unlucky.
Have written them a letter outlining my rights under the Consumer Rights Act so will see if that achieves anything!
Thanks again, honestly wouldn't have got this far without you all!
No further forward except that a master technician at vw is looking at it tomorrow to make sure they havent missed anything.My concern is that now the engine is in bits as many vw technicians as they want can look at the engine but there will be no evidence of the original diagnosis - the timing chain!
The only cost mentioned so far was the initial work for the timing belt. Which I was told would be covered as that was the issue. This was probably based on my mechanics opinion and not theirs but either way they said it was covered before I gave my permission.
They said it was the 'piston ring sealing' that has faulted. I think opening up the cylinders was intended to check for any other internal engine damage.
Initially they said internal damage was caused by using supermarket fuel but when I questioned this they are now stating I am simply unlucky.
Have written them a letter outlining my rights under the Consumer Rights Act so will see if that achieves anything!
Thanks again, honestly wouldn't have got this far without you all!
UPDATE
Contact from VW stating;
They cant give a reason for piston seal failing, but they believe it has due to compression tests.
Their job card states ;
Cyl 1 - 1.1bar - Wet test - 6.5bar
Cly 2 - 6.5 bar - Wet test - 11.0 bar
Cyl 3 - 11 bar
They have said it needs a new engine as this engine is a sealed unit and cannot replace things such as pistons or piston rings. Is this right?
They have opened up engine and no damage visible including damage to valves.
They have said that as my mechanic diagnosed based on a visual assessment of the Cams on the back of the Cam shaft and noticing it not lined up correctly, their test supersedes this as they use specialist tools to check it.
They are going to look into goodwill payment but not holding out much hope. Anyone know how much this could potentially be, if they agree to it?
Thanks again all.
Contact from VW stating;
They cant give a reason for piston seal failing, but they believe it has due to compression tests.
Their job card states ;
Cyl 1 - 1.1bar - Wet test - 6.5bar
Cly 2 - 6.5 bar - Wet test - 11.0 bar
Cyl 3 - 11 bar
They have said it needs a new engine as this engine is a sealed unit and cannot replace things such as pistons or piston rings. Is this right?
They have opened up engine and no damage visible including damage to valves.
They have said that as my mechanic diagnosed based on a visual assessment of the Cams on the back of the Cam shaft and noticing it not lined up correctly, their test supersedes this as they use specialist tools to check it.
They are going to look into goodwill payment but not holding out much hope. Anyone know how much this could potentially be, if they agree to it?
Thanks again all.
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