Direct oxygen feed to an engine - stupid idea?

Direct oxygen feed to an engine - stupid idea?

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Discussion

FunkyNige

Original Poster:

8,859 posts

274 months

Thursday 22nd May 2003
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Whilst a few mates and myself were in a pub a while back we had a cunning plan - since Nitrous Oxide works (or so I've been led to believe) by incresing the amount of oxygen going into an engine, wouldn't it be best to just put a bottle of pure oxygen in?
Another idea we had was to put an oxygen feed into a turbo, so when the turbo operates more oxygen than normal is available to help with combustion.
Am I being stupid or will this work?

andytk

1,553 posts

265 months

Thursday 22nd May 2003
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Technically yes you will get more power but it begs the question why?

Nitros can give you all the power you want (or your engine can handle).
Nitros breaks down to give oxygen when in the engine.

The main reason Nitros is used is that while in its usual form it is much safer than oxygen.
If I were you I wouldn't go arsing around with pure 02 anywhere near flammable fuel.
The other thing is that Nitros is quite a good storage medium for oxygen. It is a liquid at high pressure while in its tank.
Oxygen on the other hand requires stupidly high pressure or cryogenic cooling.

Hope this helps.
I'm sure someone else will come on and tell you in more detail why nitros is better

Andy

deltaf

6,806 posts

252 months

Thursday 22nd May 2003
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Nitrous is good for a laff too!

deltaf

6,806 posts

252 months

Thursday 22nd May 2003
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PS. Oxygen going into the engine in a pure form will eat the engine alive....... not a good idea..hence no one does it!

CraigAlsop

1,991 posts

267 months

Thursday 22nd May 2003
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deltaf said: PS. Oxygen going into the engine in a pure form will eat the engine alive....... not a good idea..hence no one does it!

Hmmm, LOX + tyre would make an instant inferno, eh deltaf? Technically it wouldn't be using explosives either, although the results would be similar....

Edited to say: Oh you said engine? I thought you said Gatso....

>> Edited by CraigAlsop on Thursday 22 May 23:32

funkihamsta

1,261 posts

262 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
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What about hyrdrogen peroxide (H2O2). This would probably spontaneously degrade to H20 and O2. Evaportation would cool the charge, whilst the oxygen would er...burn. Why hasn't this been done? Too expensive/dangerous?

kevinday

11,553 posts

279 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
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funkihamsta said: What about hyrdrogen peroxide (H2O2). This would probably spontaneously degrade to H20 and O2. Evaportation would cool the charge, whilst the oxygen would er...burn. Why hasn't this been done? Too expensive/dangerous?


IIRC H2O2 is highly corrosive, requiring special materials for storeage cylinders?

deltaf

6,806 posts

252 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
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LOL sounds like a Max P idea to me...

CraigAlsop

1,991 posts

267 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
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funkihamsta said: What about hyrdrogen peroxide (H2O2). This would probably spontaneously degrade to H20 and O2. Evaportation would cool the charge, whilst the oxygen would er...burn. Why hasn't this been done? Too expensive/dangerous?
Isn't this what the shuttle uses for its solid fuel boosters?

gbgaffer

546 posts

269 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
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funkihamsta said: What about hydrogen peroxide (H2O2).


Standard equipment on Audi TT's I believe

rev-erend

21,404 posts

283 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
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Hydrogen peroxide (bleaches hair !!) - it's was
also the fuel for Sammy Millers rocket car
powered by a lunar module enging .. very small
engine (rocket) and totally amazing to watch..
crackle fiz .. bang and then he's at the other
end of 1/4 mile before you have had a change to
move your head !

As for why nitrous Oxide rather than oxygen.

Well everyone is right about storeage but it's
also down to chemistry.

Petrol is a hydro carbon and it just happens to
run well when you add nitro + more fuel.

Oxygen would in theory + more fuel do the same .. perhaps there is a good reason why is has not been
done. It could well be a safety issue.

Fatboy

7,970 posts

271 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
funkihamsta said: What about hyrdrogen peroxide (H2O2). This would probably spontaneously degrade to H20 and O2. Evaportation would cool the charge, whilst the oxygen would er...burn. Why hasn't this been done? Too expensive/dangerous?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oxygen would in theory + more fuel do the same .. perhaps there is a good reason why is has not been
done. It could well be a safety issue.

Oxygen is extremely corrosive, and as for mixing LOX with fuel, then detonating in the cylinder - well the engine would be blown to smithereens...

Isn't this what the shuttle uses for its solid fuel boosters?


The Shuttle's solid fuel boosters run Iron Oxide/Aluminium mix IIRC - commonly known as thermite!
And hydrogen peroxide is quite corrosive - it would degrade any rubber hoses etc.

>> Edited by Fatboy on Friday 23 May 11:14

MR2Mike

20,143 posts

254 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
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No one has mentioned the charge cooling effect of N2O. The fact that it is stored (and injected) as a liquid means it's latent heat of vapourization causes a large reduction in charge temperatures, which gives a denser mixture and helps to avoid detonation.

deltaf

6,806 posts

252 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
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MR2Mike said: No one has mentioned the charge cooling effect of N2O. The fact that it is stored (and injected) as a liquid means it's latent heat of vapourization causes a large reduction in charge temperatures, which gives a denser mixture and helps to avoid detonation.



I was just gonna say that mate, honest!

FunkyNige

Original Poster:

8,859 posts

274 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
quotequote all
Bleh, another good idea put out of action by rational thinking.

FunkyNige (off to see what else burns well )

rev-erend

21,404 posts

283 months

Friday 23rd May 2003
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OK Nige - here's another.

Nitro Methane.

The top fuel dragsters use it.

Most fuels burn - this really explodes.

Engine life is measured in minutes rather that
hours.

Engine cooling - why bother, they never last that long anyway !!

funkihamsta

1,261 posts

262 months

Saturday 24th May 2003
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As l understand it, dragster use the highest possible octane. Its unlikely that the Nitro methane really explodes otherwise the car wouldn't even make the 1st run. Its probably just has massive octane rating.

mrsd

1,502 posts

252 months

Saturday 24th May 2003
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H2O2 was used in the Messerschmidt (< sp?) rocket 'planes of WW2. It's also used as the oxidant in the Bell rocket pack (as used by James Bond-yes that was real ) which has a binary fuel rocket motor. Its unfortunate problems include - potentially dissolving the pilot and extreme difficulty in storage. A high test hydrogen peroxide leak is believed to have caused the massive overpressure that destroyed Kursk.
As for using liquid O2 - pure oxygen plus hot aluminium, stand well back and enjoy the fireworks !

funkihamsta

1,261 posts

262 months

Saturday 24th May 2003
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mrsd, you never cease to amaze me with the breadth of your intellect...
:takeshatoff:

mad dawg

103 posts

262 months

Wednesday 28th May 2003
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funkihamsta said: As l understand it, dragster use the highest possible octane. Its unlikely that the Nitro methane really explodes otherwise the car wouldn't even make the 1st run. Its probably just has massive octane rating.

I think it really does just explode - with a fueler motor its not a case of if the engine is going to lunch itself but when. Fuel engines run a mainly liquid charge (as opposed to air/fuel gaseous mix) and run right up against the point of hydraulic lock (eek!). Once a run has started the spark plug tip is shortly vapourised and from then on the engine diesels for the rest of the run . I read somewhere that the enormous cylinder pressures can twist the crank by upto 20 degrees end to end and that the cam profiles are ground offset torsionally down the length of the cam to try and get the valve timing something approaching correct when the the motor is at full tilt...