Discussion
Pumaracing said:
bertelli_1 said:
Pumaracing said:
Most mechanics can barely replace external engine parts at random and usually to no good effect, have almost zero knowledge of how an engine actually works internally,
A bit harsh I feel.I've watched a 7 year time served Ford and BMW main dealer mechanic trying to strip his own race engine down in my workshop. To get the cam pulley off a CVH head he put the cylinder head face down on the concrete floor, stood on it and started hitting the pulley with a lump hammer and a cold chisel he'd found in my tool cupboard. By the time I'd wondered what the hell all the noise was and wandered up to see what he was doing he'd destroyed the pulley plus the head gasket face. The pulley wasn't even on tight but hitting it on just one side with a chisel wasn't doing anything to remove it. I rescued what was left after his efforts, put the head on the bench, held the pulley evenly on both sides with a thumb on the cam nose and it slid straight off. It had to be binned and replaced and the head reskimmed of course. This guy worked on £50k BMWs but hadn't a clue how to treat engine parts without actually destroying them in the process.
It's pretty rare that garage mechanics actually work on engines these days. They service them, they do suspension bits and clutches and exhausts and swap ancilliaries but to strip an engine or understand how engines really work is unusual. Most garages have no tools for internal engine work, no machinery for skimming or pressing off pistons. All that gets farmed out. Most don't even have a cleaning tank or any comprehension of just how spotless an engine needs to be inside before it goes back together.
Nowadays most mechanics plug in a diagnostic machine and if that doesn't know what's wrong they're screwed. 40 or 50 years ago it was very different. Engines got rebuilt more often and most mechanics could do that well enough.
If you want your engine screwed get a garage to rebuild it. Far safer to just fit a complete known runner from a scrap car that no one's buggered about with.
A couple of other tales.
A local garage to me knew I always had plenty of CVH bits knocking around. They used to pop round for valve collets every now and then. I asked why. Turned out that when they used the Sykes Pickavant tool to remove the valve springs in situ so you could change knackered stem seals they never remembered to block the oil drain holes and consequently lost a couple of collets down the sump most times. I always wondered how much havoc those wreaked on the crank and rods but as long as the car ran long enough for them to avoid a comeback it was apparently never their problem.
I remember another place doing a blown head gasket on one bank of a Rover V8. The guy couldn't be arsed to remove all the manifolds and take the head right off and clean everything up and check it all properly or see if it needed skimming. With the studs out he managed to raise the head far enough off the block to slide the old gasket out and slide a new one in. I wonder how many bits of old gasket were stuck under the new gasket and how long that ran before it blew again.
Then there was Lord something or other with a collection of cars at his stately home who took his prized Lancia Gamma in for the cambelts to be changed. After that there was a tapping noise which turned rapidly into a rattling noise which turned into an absence of forward motion. Wisely he took it to a Lancia specialist who removed the engine and brought it to me unstripped for an expert diagnosis as the garage was denying liability. The flywheel on it had marks at TDC for cambelt changes plus marks at I think it was 30 degrees BTDC for ignition timing. The garage had set the cambelt timing using the ignition timing marks leading to all the inlet valves hitting the pistons. Every inlet valve was bent plus one rocker had snapped under the strain which had finally stopped it running. They paid up pretty quickly after seeing the report and I got the rebuild out of it at least.
Then there was the garage who rebuilt one of my race engines when the owner sold the car and the new owner didn't know where to take it back to for a proper freshen up. It had been a top runner when I'd built it but on the same dyno it was down 10 bhp after their efforts and finally the block split. I got it back to see what had happened. They'd honed the bores with some sort of hand tool but without moving it up and down as it rotated. The bores were just full of deep horizontal ridges that the piston rings were bouncing over. The heat and friction finally split the block open. With the head off and just the crank and pistons in it it still took over 30 ft lbs to turn the crank over.
I could go on but you get the gist.
king up an engine rebuild a bit of a sweeping statement,i have been a mechanic for over 26 years both self employed all makes and ex Honda technician and have run my own workshop for 16 years now and built many cooking and performance engines(yes some may say old school)both for myself,friends and as part of my business and apart from shipping the machine work out i do find your comments about the garage trade narrow minded,yes there is many sharks in this trade but that's no reason to tar us all with the same brush 
i will say that engine work is quite scarce nowadays due to cars being more disposable,i was going to say more reliable but that's not the case 
its like me getting poor machine work carried out and saying all machine shops are cowboys,unfortunately the sharks give everyone a bad name but Puma you should know better 
Although you back up your statement with a few examples, pumaracing, I have to disagree. In fact those examples you use are obviously people with a severe lack of common sense. I've seen a few of your posts & you know what you're talking about and do a quality job. But please don't flail your tar brush around because it just won't stick to us decent mechanics. However, engines have become a more specialist job (as have gearbox rebuilds, bodywork, etc) so the general mechanic isn't going to be getting involved & therefore will not have the requisite experience, which as I'm sure you'll agree counts for a lot.
eta: nice subtle link Eliot!
eta: nice subtle link Eliot!
Edited by bertelli_1 on Thursday 3rd December 12:20
Whilst it is a sweeping statement, in my experience it tends to be true. Most garages can't do anything more complicated than replacing an alternator. And even then there's a chance they'll muck it up.
Sure, every stereotype has its exceptions. And chances are, on a car forum, there will be more exceptions here than overall. But an exception doesn't break the rule.
Sure, every stereotype has its exceptions. And chances are, on a car forum, there will be more exceptions here than overall. But an exception doesn't break the rule.
I use a main dealer (Audi) The technicians ages vary from apprentice to time served 50's. They will do everything required in house (except bodywork) Skills vary across the team one guy is a gearbox specialist (he's in his 50's) Some of the younger guys are better at electronic ailments. With any outfit its important to have a diverse skills base and use it effectively. One person cannot be an expert in every field (however experienced) and will always be learning from his colleagues.
If you have a bright lad and just leave him to do oil, filter and brakes he will be bored stless in no time.
If you have a bright lad and just leave him to do oil, filter and brakes he will be bored s
tless in no time.Pumaracing said:
It's pretty rare that garage mechanics actually work on engines these days. They service them, they do suspension bits and clutches and exhausts and swap ancilliaries but to strip an engine or understand how engines really work is unusual. Most garages have no tools for internal engine work, no machinery for skimming or pressing off pistons. All that gets farmed out. Most don't even have a cleaning tank or any comprehension of just how spotless an engine needs to be inside before it goes back together.
Nowadays most mechanics plug in a diagnostic machine and if that doesn't know what's wrong they're screwed. 40 or 50 years ago it was very different. Engines got rebuilt more often and most mechanics could do that well enough.
If you want your engine screwed get a garage to rebuild it. Far safer to just fit a complete known runner from a scrap car that no one's buggered about with.
Things are a bit different now to what they were 40 or 50 years ago and although engines themselves are not really any different in principle they light years away in design as far as engine management goes, that's why you need to plug a computer in to find out what's gone wrong with them in most cases.Nowadays most mechanics plug in a diagnostic machine and if that doesn't know what's wrong they're screwed. 40 or 50 years ago it was very different. Engines got rebuilt more often and most mechanics could do that well enough.
If you want your engine screwed get a garage to rebuild it. Far safer to just fit a complete known runner from a scrap car that no one's buggered about with.
Engines don't get rebuilt by mechanics so much now because it isn't economical to do so when you can buy a replacement engine for the same cost as you can often as not buy the parts to build it.
There were not many garages 40 or 50 years ago that had machine tools for skimming or boring etc, that was all farmed out and unless you are reconditioning engines all day long it would be uneconomical financially and space wise to have hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of machinery sitting there doing little or nothing.
I expect you have all these tales to tell because you are seeing the results of the people who can't manage to put an engine together properly, there are loads of people who can and you wouldn't see there work.
On the flip side I too could tell a few stories of so called "expert mechanics" such as the one who changed the clutch in an E-type and serviced it afterwards. It came back a few weeks later with a knackered engine. When I asked how much oil he put in he said "just over a gallon as that's about what most engines take isn't it"
To the OP, if the engine had a vibration, why did you buy it?
I find myself sitting on a fence here!
While I agree some garages earn a rep for being st, some get hit with it when it starts flying around.
However, I got a Vectra a couple of years ago. Well after I had fixed the engine....
My neighbour approched me one day and asked if I could help him with his car. He suspected the head gasket was gone.
He told me he knows FA about cars, but he knew the HG was gone as it was the same symptoms as the other THREE previous occasions
Each gasket lasted around 3 months before self destructing.
The car was also on it's 2nd or 3rd gearbox....
Anyway, I stripped the top end and found the cause of the engines requirement for 3 head gaskets.
Some clown had missed a raised section of what I can only describe as rust on the mating face of the block. It wasn't much, but enough to lift the gasket a smidgen and the hot gasses to attack the gasket.
I flattened down the whole mating face and rebuilt the engine, including timing belt kit and new oil, etc.
Stuck it back together and fired her up and away she went.
The car lasted a few months until the gearbox front mount parted company thanks to 2 of the 3 bolts shearing off. The last monkey who had replaced the box must have torqued it up using a ten foot bar
Anyway, my neighbour had had enough of the constant break downs and "donated" the car to me.
I removed the engine, stuck it in a 1999 Vectra diesel (that engine had died thanks to petrol.....) and got it tested. Then I sold it to a fella who is still driving around in it and absoulutely delighted with the car (and engine).
That was over a year ago.
My point?
Do the job right and you only have to do it once
While I agree some garages earn a rep for being s
t, some get hit with it when it starts flying around.However, I got a Vectra a couple of years ago. Well after I had fixed the engine....
My neighbour approched me one day and asked if I could help him with his car. He suspected the head gasket was gone.
He told me he knows FA about cars, but he knew the HG was gone as it was the same symptoms as the other THREE previous occasions
Each gasket lasted around 3 months before self destructing.
The car was also on it's 2nd or 3rd gearbox....
Anyway, I stripped the top end and found the cause of the engines requirement for 3 head gaskets.
Some clown had missed a raised section of what I can only describe as rust on the mating face of the block. It wasn't much, but enough to lift the gasket a smidgen and the hot gasses to attack the gasket.
I flattened down the whole mating face and rebuilt the engine, including timing belt kit and new oil, etc.
Stuck it back together and fired her up and away she went.
The car lasted a few months until the gearbox front mount parted company thanks to 2 of the 3 bolts shearing off. The last monkey who had replaced the box must have torqued it up using a ten foot bar
Anyway, my neighbour had had enough of the constant break downs and "donated" the car to me.
I removed the engine, stuck it in a 1999 Vectra diesel (that engine had died thanks to petrol.....) and got it tested. Then I sold it to a fella who is still driving around in it and absoulutely delighted with the car (and engine).
That was over a year ago.
My point?
Do the job right and you only have to do it once
tristancliffe said:
Whilst it is a sweeping statement, in my experience it tends to be true. Most garages can't do anything more complicated than replacing an alternator. And even then there's a chance they'll muck it up.
Sure, every stereotype has its exceptions. And chances are, on a car forum, there will be more exceptions here than overall. But an exception doesn't break the rule.
I totally agree with Pumaracing et al. There are some good, experienced mechanics around who have the knowledge and skills to diagnose problems properly, and assemble engines without buggering them up. They are however not in the majority, and some of the very worst appear to work for dealers.Sure, every stereotype has its exceptions. And chances are, on a car forum, there will be more exceptions here than overall. But an exception doesn't break the rule.
The average mechanic can fit exhausts, brakes, driveshafts etc. and sometimes they even manage to replace a clutch without buggering things up, but modern engines and associated management systems tend to be way outside their comfort zone. Sadly it doesn't seem to stop them having a go.
Moving on a step there also appears to be a rapidly expanding generation of "tuners" who should have stuck with fitting tyres and exhausts rather than building and mapping engines.
In the right conditions its very easy to bend a conrod, many ears ago, I lived in a area where the river would flood the town centre, my next dorr neighbour woke up to find his Beetle up to the top of the wheels in water, being a time when everybody fixed their own cars at the front door, when the fllods abated, seats and carpets were out in the garden to dry, dissy and tank removed, removed 3 plugs, and forgot to remove the 4th, turned the engine over to pump any water out, and promptly bent a conrod almost to a S shape, and that was on the starter!!!!
Thanks for all the answers.
When I collected the car I had already paid. The original seller was very clear about the fact he needed to be paid straight away. He has a 100% feedback so this was one of the reasons I bid. He was moving house and seemed a genuine chap.
I wish he had mentioned the vibration problem. Like a typical english person I didn't complain though. Perhaps I should have.
As soon as I drove the car, I knew there was a problem. However I am not mechanically minded and assumed (wrongly) it was a case of the tracking off or something. The next day I booked the car into our local garage. They do all our cars and are very good. They did a service like i asked for. I also asked if they would investigate the vibration problem. A day later I got a call saying they had driven the car and thought it was too slow and they thought the car the slowness and vibration problem may be linked. It runs fine. The vibration happens when you start the car. Anyway they had the car for a week. They think the car has been driven through heavy water (although the seller denied it) as they found water in the air filter.
They haven't given me a full diagnosis but at worse its a bent conrod (which is £250-300 to fix). I did get some quotes for a new engine and the cheapest one was £450 but then there is also fitting (£200) so its just not worth it for me to fix the car. This car was supposed to be a surprise present for our daughter. Its turned into a complete nightmare.
I have now bought another car (a Daihatsu Terios) from a different local garage and borrowed the money from the mother in law to do so! There is no guarantee the Terios will be better but I get a warranty this time and if anything goes wrong I can just take it back.
The result is I have a car (Seat) which could be fixed. But I also want the vehicle to be a surprise for our daughter and not "Aby we have got you a car and by the way, it's at the garage for the next 26 days!"
The Seat Arosa is currently back on ebay... currently at a massive £100 - so a £730 loss if it sells. I tried contacting ebay but they said I had no comeback.
When I collected the car I had already paid. The original seller was very clear about the fact he needed to be paid straight away. He has a 100% feedback so this was one of the reasons I bid. He was moving house and seemed a genuine chap.
I wish he had mentioned the vibration problem. Like a typical english person I didn't complain though. Perhaps I should have.
As soon as I drove the car, I knew there was a problem. However I am not mechanically minded and assumed (wrongly) it was a case of the tracking off or something. The next day I booked the car into our local garage. They do all our cars and are very good. They did a service like i asked for. I also asked if they would investigate the vibration problem. A day later I got a call saying they had driven the car and thought it was too slow and they thought the car the slowness and vibration problem may be linked. It runs fine. The vibration happens when you start the car. Anyway they had the car for a week. They think the car has been driven through heavy water (although the seller denied it) as they found water in the air filter.
They haven't given me a full diagnosis but at worse its a bent conrod (which is £250-300 to fix). I did get some quotes for a new engine and the cheapest one was £450 but then there is also fitting (£200) so its just not worth it for me to fix the car. This car was supposed to be a surprise present for our daughter. Its turned into a complete nightmare.
I have now bought another car (a Daihatsu Terios) from a different local garage and borrowed the money from the mother in law to do so! There is no guarantee the Terios will be better but I get a warranty this time and if anything goes wrong I can just take it back.
The result is I have a car (Seat) which could be fixed. But I also want the vehicle to be a surprise for our daughter and not "Aby we have got you a car and by the way, it's at the garage for the next 26 days!"
The Seat Arosa is currently back on ebay... currently at a massive £100 - so a £730 loss if it sells. I tried contacting ebay but they said I had no comeback.
I'm thoroughly confused. You appear to be now saying there's a vibration "only" as you start the car and after that it runs fine i.e. with no vibration. Now I simply can't see any other logical interpretation of your words because clearly there's unlikely to be any vibration from any part of it before you've actually started the car so to even mention the starting process if it runs badly all the time would be redundant.
In that case it can't be a conrod can it unless it's a magical self healing conrod that bends when the engine's stopped but straightens back out under compressive load. Is that much at least not obvious even to a non mechanic? Large sturdy chunks of high tensile steel don't change shape at random.
Like I told you in the first place just drive the bloody thing and ignore the garage but horses and water eh?
God forbid I should start assuming anything because that always leads to problems and confusion but if what you actually mean is it runs badly for just a brief period after each start then all it's likely to be is a glowplug not working or something else simple that kicks in properly once it's warmed up a bit. If there's any chance you could post just one clear concise explanation of what the hell is actually happening then we might be able to help you before our brains start leaking out through our ears.
However you appear to be hell bent on ignoring any good advice in here and pissing away a small fortune on buying another car and selling this one at a huge loss for the sake of a completely imaginary problem or at least the incorrect diagnosis of something very simple. And people wonder why I get frustrated in here.
In that case it can't be a conrod can it unless it's a magical self healing conrod that bends when the engine's stopped but straightens back out under compressive load. Is that much at least not obvious even to a non mechanic? Large sturdy chunks of high tensile steel don't change shape at random.
Like I told you in the first place just drive the bloody thing and ignore the garage but horses and water eh?
God forbid I should start assuming anything because that always leads to problems and confusion but if what you actually mean is it runs badly for just a brief period after each start then all it's likely to be is a glowplug not working or something else simple that kicks in properly once it's warmed up a bit. If there's any chance you could post just one clear concise explanation of what the hell is actually happening then we might be able to help you before our brains start leaking out through our ears.
However you appear to be hell bent on ignoring any good advice in here and pissing away a small fortune on buying another car and selling this one at a huge loss for the sake of a completely imaginary problem or at least the incorrect diagnosis of something very simple. And people wonder why I get frustrated in here.
A grumpy person said
"In that case it can't be a conrod can it unless it's a magical self healing conrod that bends when the engine's stopped but straightens back out under compressive load. Is that much at least not obvious even to a non mechanic? Large sturdy chunks of high tensile steel don't change shape at random".
"And people wonder why I get frustrated in here"
It's pretty obvious the OP isn't sure what's happening so I can't see why you're getting all frustrated. You don't have to post a reply. Phil clearly doesn't know about mechanical issues but he did ask on here for some help.
"In that case it can't be a conrod can it unless it's a magical self healing conrod that bends when the engine's stopped but straightens back out under compressive load. Is that much at least not obvious even to a non mechanic? Large sturdy chunks of high tensile steel don't change shape at random".
"And people wonder why I get frustrated in here"
It's pretty obvious the OP isn't sure what's happening so I can't see why you're getting all frustrated. You don't have to post a reply. Phil clearly doesn't know about mechanical issues but he did ask on here for some help.
Boosted LS1 said:
It's pretty obvious the OP isn't sure what's happening so I can't see why you're getting all frustrated. You don't have to post a reply. Phil clearly doesn't know about mechanical issues but he did ask on here for some help.
There has to come a point at which someone ought to realise that if they can't even describe the basics of the problem and know so little about mechanics they can't evaluate any of the answers then there was no point asking in the first place.Most of us aren't medically trained but we can all go to a doctor and at least tell him what hurts and when. How hard can it be to at least describe the circumstances that this vibration occurs under like only for the first 30 seconds after starting the engine or only when the car goes over a bump or only on Tuesdays when it's raining but we're still none the wiser short of guessing.
stevieturbo said:
Jack_and_MLE said:
After all that who could rebuilt the bottom end of my K?
DVA is on the list but he is booked until March
Any other recomendations?
Jack
Im confused. You havent posted in this thread before, so what are you referring to ?DVA is on the list but he is booked until March
Any other recomendations?
Jack
Get the uprated big end bearings as part of the renewal. It may also be worth getting oilway mods, etc., whilst you're at it?
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