Discussion
Santa pod recommend chutes or another braking system for vehicles over 150mph even at RWYB, seem to recall for competition you need one for 140mph
http://www.rwyb.co.uk/rules.php
Many rules seem over the top but often there is a good historical reason they exist
http://www.rwyb.co.uk/rules.php
Many rules seem over the top but often there is a good historical reason they exist
Like so many bits of safety equipment, chutes look a bit pointless until you need them. At high speeds having a chute as a first braking option and brakes as a second is pretty useful. I've had brakes fail (before I started using a chute) and a chute that didn't deploy in the past. It makes sense to me for regular racers, maybe less so for RWYB guys, though it's rare for them to get sub 12!
IMO, if your car needs a chute, then IMO it's dangerous and has inadequate brakes/tyres to start with.
But in the drag world they're accepting of that because they have a chute.
IMO that isnt making things as safe as can be, it's accepting of the fact the cars are unsafe and they're trying to bandaid them.
And if the cars braking system is built right, there should be zero chance of failure. After all...how often do OEM braking systems fail ?
Very very rare unless some muppet has been at them.
If it was me, I'd enforce rules that the cars must have proper tyres/brakes for the speeds they are seeing instead. None of that silly skinny front tyre nonsense for example, or baby brakes.
A chute can have some safety benefits in the vent of getting badly out of shape...assuming the car is actually going fast enough at the time for the chute to really work, and it gets deployed in time.
Sometimes they do....a lot of the time they dont.
Some of the old rules really are daft in this day and age, luckily they are not heavily enforced.
But in the drag world they're accepting of that because they have a chute.
IMO that isnt making things as safe as can be, it's accepting of the fact the cars are unsafe and they're trying to bandaid them.
And if the cars braking system is built right, there should be zero chance of failure. After all...how often do OEM braking systems fail ?
Very very rare unless some muppet has been at them.
If it was me, I'd enforce rules that the cars must have proper tyres/brakes for the speeds they are seeing instead. None of that silly skinny front tyre nonsense for example, or baby brakes.
A chute can have some safety benefits in the vent of getting badly out of shape...assuming the car is actually going fast enough at the time for the chute to really work, and it gets deployed in time.
Sometimes they do....a lot of the time they dont.
Some of the old rules really are daft in this day and age, luckily they are not heavily enforced.
Edited by stevieturbo on Friday 10th March 20:15
mini_me said:
Does a chute help? Sure...do I need one? Probably not. This car has seen some pretty hard stops from speeds much higher than 150mph. I'd say getting into the 160mph+ then a chute is something to look at in the 1/4 mile.
I can see little reason for a chute even at those speeds. If your car is capable of those speeds, then it should be fitted with brakes and tyres capable of stopping it safely from those speeds.You should never be relying on a chute to do that.. The chute could be secondary, but drag rules seem to ignore having proper brakes on the car for a chute. Which is crazy
It's not like most tracks have such short shutdown areas that you need to brake very hard. Although Crail isnt great..and it's bumpy as hell ! lol It makes for interesting braking
stevieturbo said:
IMO, if your car needs a chute, then IMO it's dangerous and has inadequate brakes/tyres to start with.
But in the drag world they're accepting of that because they have a chute.
So you'd ban dragsters, funny cars , roadsters etc etc But in the drag world they're accepting of that because they have a chute.
Edited by stevieturbo on Friday 10th March 20:15
Chute failures are very uncommon
Quick update:
The fireplace ethanol bought in the UK works like a charm....
My track outing wasn't so good to be honest. I borrowed some 26.6" drag radials/wheels and fought traction during all 4 passes. Most were about 11.1@147 banging off the limiter right after the 1000ft mark. I have a 28.1' drag setup at home with much more sidewall but had to run without them since the wheels didn't get here in time.
I think she can do 155mph without having to turn up the boost anymore. That's definitely good enough for a nine just need to get the rest dialed in. Time to get the two step setup and leave with boost
.
The fireplace ethanol bought in the UK works like a charm....
My track outing wasn't so good to be honest. I borrowed some 26.6" drag radials/wheels and fought traction during all 4 passes. Most were about 11.1@147 banging off the limiter right after the 1000ft mark. I have a 28.1' drag setup at home with much more sidewall but had to run without them since the wheels didn't get here in time.
I think she can do 155mph without having to turn up the boost anymore. That's definitely good enough for a nine just need to get the rest dialed in. Time to get the two step setup and leave with boost
.mini_me said:
Quick update:
The fireplace ethanol bought in the UK works like a charm....
My track outing wasn't so good to be honest. I borrowed some 26.6" drag radials/wheels and fought traction during all 4 passes. Most were about 11.1@147 banging off the limiter right after the 1000ft mark. I have a 28.1' drag setup at home with much more sidewall but had to run without them since the wheels didn't get here in time.
I think she can do 155mph without having to turn up the boost anymore. That's definitely good enough for a nine just need to get the rest dialed in. Time to get the two step setup and leave with boost.
Interesting about the ethanol. Any difference at all from pump bought stuff ?The fireplace ethanol bought in the UK works like a charm....
My track outing wasn't so good to be honest. I borrowed some 26.6" drag radials/wheels and fought traction during all 4 passes. Most were about 11.1@147 banging off the limiter right after the 1000ft mark. I have a 28.1' drag setup at home with much more sidewall but had to run without them since the wheels didn't get here in time.
I think she can do 155mph without having to turn up the boost anymore. That's definitely good enough for a nine just need to get the rest dialed in. Time to get the two step setup and leave with boost
.Track must have been shockingly bad ? I was running that last year on normal road tyres when I was there, prper tyres made a huge difference the next day til the f'in clutch started slipping.
Your overall gearing must be quite short if 147 is the limit ? Or is your box a 1:1 top gear ?
stevieturbo said:
Interesting about the ethanol. Any difference at all from pump bought stuff ?
Track must have been shockingly bad ? I was running that last year on normal road tyres when I was there, proper tyres made a huge difference the next day til the f'in clutch started slipping.
Your overall gearing must be quite short if 147 is the limit ? Or is your box a 1:1 top gear ?
Track must have been shockingly bad ? I was running that last year on normal road tyres when I was there, proper tyres made a huge difference the next day til the f'in clutch started slipping.
Your overall gearing must be quite short if 147 is the limit ? Or is your box a 1:1 top gear ?
stevieturbo said:
Interesting about the ethanol. Any difference at all from pump bought stuff ?
Track must have been shockingly bad ? I was running that last year on normal road tyres when I was there, prper tyres made a huge difference the next day til the f'in clutch started slipping.
Your overall gearing must be quite short if 147 is the limit ? Or is your box a 1:1 top gear ?
Yea, with ethanol the car runs 5 more pounds of boost and 6 degrees more timing (no KR). It makes a HUGE night and day difference! It was pretty bad sometimes I spun halfway down the track but I'm not too concerned with it since I was on a borrowed set. Track must have been shockingly bad ? I was running that last year on normal road tyres when I was there, prper tyres made a huge difference the next day til the f'in clutch started slipping.
Your overall gearing must be quite short if 147 is the limit ? Or is your box a 1:1 top gear ?
With the 26.6" tires I can only cross the line at 146mph revving to 6800rpm. I have 28.1" tires at home that should let me move into the mid 150s without hitting off the limiter. I can shift into 5th but it is almost pointless after the 1000ft.
mini_me said:
Yea, with ethanol the car runs 5 more pounds of boost and 6 degrees more timing (no KR). It makes a HUGE night and day difference! It was pretty bad sometimes I spun halfway down the track but I'm not too concerned with it since I was on a borrowed set.
With the 26.6" tires I can only cross the line at 146mph revving to 6800rpm. I have 28.1" tires at home that should let me move into the mid 150s without hitting off the limiter. I can shift into 5th but it is almost pointless after the 1000ft.
Sorry, I meant the heating ethanol vs whatever ethanol you're normally using.With the 26.6" tires I can only cross the line at 146mph revving to 6800rpm. I have 28.1" tires at home that should let me move into the mid 150s without hitting off the limiter. I can shift into 5th but it is almost pointless after the 1000ft.
Surely the car would still pull hard in 5th ? Although obviously it does take the time to shift.... Up the rev limit !
153 on mine last year was around 6600rpm on 26" tyres although I've a 3.27 diff.
I dont have room for any tyres bigger than that without a lot of cutting though but the gearing works well.
stevieturbo said:
Sorry, I meant the heating ethanol vs whatever ethanol you're normally using.
Surely the car would still pull hard in 5th ? Although obviously it does take the time to shift.... Up the rev limit !
153 on mine last year was around 6600rpm on 26" tyres although I've a 3.27 diff.
I dont have room for any tyres bigger than that without a lot of cutting though but the gearing works well.
No difference apart from smelling better since the ethanol content is higher. I ran it to about 75% mixture (E75). My flex fuel map is really doesn't add much timing after E60 so the difference in power from E60 to pure ethanol would be minor apart from worse gas mileage.Surely the car would still pull hard in 5th ? Although obviously it does take the time to shift.... Up the rev limit !
153 on mine last year was around 6600rpm on 26" tyres although I've a 3.27 diff.
I dont have room for any tyres bigger than that without a lot of cutting though but the gearing works well.
I was on borrowed tires so didn't mess with the Map. My personal set of wheels/tires that are 28" so I should be fine it was just the set of circumstances that forced me to run on those 26s. By the time I shift into 5th, I'm almost across the line so it is pointless.
Sorry to bring up an old thread.
Does anyone have any knowledge of running methanol in the tank of a direct injection engine?
I was excited when I read this thread initially then read on another forum that it wouldn't be wise to add it to the tank of a DI engine.
Here was the reason given :
"The N54 and N55 are direct injection motors which means that the fuel is injected DIRECTLY into the combustion chamber. In comparison, the conventional port injection engines inject their fuel usually in the intake manifold ports.
The whole purpose of methanol injection is that it has time to mix with the hot air charge. When methanol is mixed with air, it evaporates and during this process it absorbs heat. This in turn makes the air charge colder and denser. Ultimately, colder air allows for better suppression of detonation.
Now, think about what you are asking for a minute... You want to add meth/water mix to your gas tank presumably because you want to enjoy the benefits of the suppressed detonation. Well, that ain't gonna happen since methanol will not be mixing with air and cooling the air charge."
I can't find any other threads where somebody has done it on my engine so hoping it's not true in the real world but hoping that somebody knows from experience. Obviously it doesn't have to be a bmw. Most manufacturers make a variant of some sort.
Does anyone have any knowledge of running methanol in the tank of a direct injection engine?
I was excited when I read this thread initially then read on another forum that it wouldn't be wise to add it to the tank of a DI engine.
Here was the reason given :
"The N54 and N55 are direct injection motors which means that the fuel is injected DIRECTLY into the combustion chamber. In comparison, the conventional port injection engines inject their fuel usually in the intake manifold ports.
The whole purpose of methanol injection is that it has time to mix with the hot air charge. When methanol is mixed with air, it evaporates and during this process it absorbs heat. This in turn makes the air charge colder and denser. Ultimately, colder air allows for better suppression of detonation.
Now, think about what you are asking for a minute... You want to add meth/water mix to your gas tank presumably because you want to enjoy the benefits of the suppressed detonation. Well, that ain't gonna happen since methanol will not be mixing with air and cooling the air charge."
I can't find any other threads where somebody has done it on my engine so hoping it's not true in the real world but hoping that somebody knows from experience. Obviously it doesn't have to be a bmw. Most manufacturers make a variant of some sort.
johnscales said:
Sorry to bring up an old thread.
Does anyone have any knowledge of running methanol in the tank of a direct injection engine?
I was excited when I read this thread initially then read on another forum that it wouldn't be wise to add it to the tank of a DI engine.
Here was the reason given :
"The N54 and N55 are direct injection motors which means that the fuel is injected DIRECTLY into the combustion chamber. In comparison, the conventional port injection engines inject their fuel usually in the intake manifold ports.
The whole purpose of methanol injection is that it has time to mix with the hot air charge. When methanol is mixed with air, it evaporates and during this process it absorbs heat. This in turn makes the air charge colder and denser. Ultimately, colder air allows for better suppression of detonation.
Now, think about what you are asking for a minute... You want to add meth/water mix to your gas tank presumably because you want to enjoy the benefits of the suppressed detonation. Well, that ain't gonna happen since methanol will not be mixing with air and cooling the air charge."
I can't find any other threads where somebody has done it on my engine so hoping it's not true in the real world but hoping that somebody knows from experience. Obviously it doesn't have to be a bmw. Most manufacturers make a variant of some sort.
None of our cars are DI....so not sure of the relevance ?Does anyone have any knowledge of running methanol in the tank of a direct injection engine?
I was excited when I read this thread initially then read on another forum that it wouldn't be wise to add it to the tank of a DI engine.
Here was the reason given :
"The N54 and N55 are direct injection motors which means that the fuel is injected DIRECTLY into the combustion chamber. In comparison, the conventional port injection engines inject their fuel usually in the intake manifold ports.
The whole purpose of methanol injection is that it has time to mix with the hot air charge. When methanol is mixed with air, it evaporates and during this process it absorbs heat. This in turn makes the air charge colder and denser. Ultimately, colder air allows for better suppression of detonation.
Now, think about what you are asking for a minute... You want to add meth/water mix to your gas tank presumably because you want to enjoy the benefits of the suppressed detonation. Well, that ain't gonna happen since methanol will not be mixing with air and cooling the air charge."
I can't find any other threads where somebody has done it on my engine so hoping it's not true in the real world but hoping that somebody knows from experience. Obviously it doesn't have to be a bmw. Most manufacturers make a variant of some sort.
When you add methanol to the fuel, you're doing so for slightly different reasons than injecting it much earlier into the airstream.
And when you start talking about water, it's again for different reasons.
Each has it's own pros and cons.
And none relate to ethanol or E85 lol.
Thanks for the reply Stevieturbo.
Do you mean that op response isn't relevant to putting meth only into the tank?
I want to try it but not if what he says is true of DI engines. My thoughts were (and i've no experience with adding octane boosters of any sort) that his logic sounded ok except for his last sentence. To my mind the meth and gas would still mix with air whether DI or not as that is how combustion works.
What I want to know is whether it happening in the cylinder (rather than further down/up stream as per normal meth injection on our cars) would give it the time required to 'work' as effectively as non DI cars.
I suppose i'm looking for a 'yes it will still work for DI' or 'no, it won't work for DI' kind of answer since you're clearly more well versed in running additives than me.
Apologies if there isn't a clear cut yes/no answer.
Do you mean that op response isn't relevant to putting meth only into the tank?
I want to try it but not if what he says is true of DI engines. My thoughts were (and i've no experience with adding octane boosters of any sort) that his logic sounded ok except for his last sentence. To my mind the meth and gas would still mix with air whether DI or not as that is how combustion works.
What I want to know is whether it happening in the cylinder (rather than further down/up stream as per normal meth injection on our cars) would give it the time required to 'work' as effectively as non DI cars.
I suppose i'm looking for a 'yes it will still work for DI' or 'no, it won't work for DI' kind of answer since you're clearly more well versed in running additives than me.
Apologies if there isn't a clear cut yes/no answer.
I've no experience of DI engines, so in that respect I dont know.
From a point of view of methanol adding octane to the fuel in use....there's no real reason why it shouldnt offer some benefits.
However, whether than methanol might have some negative effect on the pump, injectors etc...no idea. Methanol isnt very user friendly for a lot of materials. Although as you'd probably only be mixing up to 20%, it probably shouldnt post too many issues.
But of course the ecu would absolutely need re-tuned if you do add it to the fuel. You cannot just add say 20% and run it as is like you would if using some sort of octane booster.
From a point of view of methanol adding octane to the fuel in use....there's no real reason why it shouldnt offer some benefits.
However, whether than methanol might have some negative effect on the pump, injectors etc...no idea. Methanol isnt very user friendly for a lot of materials. Although as you'd probably only be mixing up to 20%, it probably shouldnt post too many issues.
But of course the ecu would absolutely need re-tuned if you do add it to the fuel. You cannot just add say 20% and run it as is like you would if using some sort of octane booster.
We tried a 10% mix on our turbocharged drag bike way way back when we knew no better, whacked a huge fuel jet and still burned the plugs out by the 1/8 mile , we were lucky not to lose the engine
Now nitrous injection using methanol as the enrichment fuel did work
Methanol carries some oxygen and its cooling effect is beneficial but tuning it is a total pain in the arse in my experience
Now nitrous injection using methanol as the enrichment fuel did work
Methanol carries some oxygen and its cooling effect is beneficial but tuning it is a total pain in the arse in my experience
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