Lancia: Do they deserve a bad reputation?
Discussion
HI all
As a big Alfa Romeo nut (I know I need therapy), and admirer of all things Italian, I think Lancia got a bad deal back in the day. It's very true they suffered horrendous rust issues. Then again, I'm struggling to think of an Italian car that didn't back in the 70s and 80s.
If I had the money and space I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Delta Integrale.
Discuss.
As a big Alfa Romeo nut (I know I need therapy), and admirer of all things Italian, I think Lancia got a bad deal back in the day. It's very true they suffered horrendous rust issues. Then again, I'm struggling to think of an Italian car that didn't back in the 70s and 80s.
If I had the money and space I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Delta Integrale.
Discuss.
I owned many a Lancia back in the day, mainly Integrales. When I started to pay attention to them again a few years ago I was shocked to see how many were being eaten alive by rust. You would've thought they would've licked that.
I never had any reliability issues with what were then ten year old or so cars. Plenty of little niggles but that might've been more down to my own perfectionism.
I never had any reliability issues with what were then ten year old or so cars. Plenty of little niggles but that might've been more down to my own perfectionism.
Pre the FIAT takeover in the late sixties Lancia was viewed very much as a gentleman’s carriage, in the same vain as an Audi or BMW is today, with the coach built models up there with a modern Bentley.
Although FIAT certainly saved the marque, with it came a gradual watering down of the marque’s values, so the first FIAT cars (like my current Fulvia) came with complex, difficult body designs, built with lower grade steel and weak quality control.
Betas (of which I’ve owned three) where certainly no worse than anything around at the time, either British, European or Japanese, (with the exception of the Swedes). Sadly the UK press got hold of the whole ‘Engines falling out of cars’ story and blew it out of all proportion. The Marque never really recovered.
What’s often forgotten is that Betas still sold in large numbers and with their lovey twin cam engines, disc brakes all round and independent coil suspension, were leagues ahead of the BL and Ford equivalents.
You could still easily use a well sorted Beta as a daily, no problem at all.
However as said above, the marque's technically dead, long since forgotten by FIAT in favour of Alfa and the 500.
Although FIAT certainly saved the marque, with it came a gradual watering down of the marque’s values, so the first FIAT cars (like my current Fulvia) came with complex, difficult body designs, built with lower grade steel and weak quality control.
Betas (of which I’ve owned three) where certainly no worse than anything around at the time, either British, European or Japanese, (with the exception of the Swedes). Sadly the UK press got hold of the whole ‘Engines falling out of cars’ story and blew it out of all proportion. The Marque never really recovered.
What’s often forgotten is that Betas still sold in large numbers and with their lovey twin cam engines, disc brakes all round and independent coil suspension, were leagues ahead of the BL and Ford equivalents.
You could still easily use a well sorted Beta as a daily, no problem at all.
However as said above, the marque's technically dead, long since forgotten by FIAT in favour of Alfa and the 500.
I had a fair few Lancia's in the 80's/90's really enjoyed them, they were well ahead of their time/over engineered, great suspension, disk brakes all round, shame about the rust. My favourite one was a Beta Volumex Coupe, plus 1.6 and 2.0i HPE's, various Delta's and a Prisma sadly never had an intergralle. Alfa's, Fiat's etc used to rust just as badly as Lancia's sadly the Beta saloon scandal killed them off in the UK.
madjules said:
Pre the FIAT takeover in the late sixties Lancia was viewed very much as a gentleman’s carriage, in the same vain as an Audi or BMW is today, with the coach built models up there with a modern Bentley.
.
I wouldn't associate the words "gentleman's garage" with PCP'd Audis and BMWs. Or modern Bentleys..
Thanks guys. Interesting and varied views on Lancias. I'm well aware they were relatively small company in the UK, and dealerships, even at their pomp were few and far between.
Back in the mid 80s I was very tempted to buy a Beta Coupe - my current car then was a lovely Dolly Sprint, but there was something I couldn't quite put my finger on. However, I decided to keep the Dolly but.... (always a 'but' when it comes to cars you'd wished you purchased).
C'est la vie.
Back in the mid 80s I was very tempted to buy a Beta Coupe - my current car then was a lovely Dolly Sprint, but there was something I couldn't quite put my finger on. However, I decided to keep the Dolly but.... (always a 'but' when it comes to cars you'd wished you purchased).
C'est la vie.
madjules said:
Pre the FIAT takeover in the late sixties Lancia was viewed very much as a gentleman’s carriage, in the same vain as an Audi or BMW is today, with the coach built models up there with a modern Bentley.
Although FIAT certainly saved the marque, with it came a gradual watering down of the marque’s values, so the first FIAT cars (like my current Fulvia) came with complex, difficult body designs, built with lower grade steel and weak quality control.
Betas (of which I’ve owned three) where certainly no worse than anything around at the time, either British, European or Japanese, (with the exception of the Swedes). Sadly the UK press got hold of the whole ‘Engines falling out of cars’ story and blew it out of all proportion. The Marque never really recovered.
What’s often forgotten is that Betas still sold in large numbers and with their lovey twin cam engines, disc brakes all round and independent coil suspension, were leagues ahead of the BL and Ford equivalents.
You could still easily use a well sorted Beta as a daily, no problem at all.
However as said above, the marque's technically dead, long since forgotten by FIAT in favour of Alfa and the 500.
The Beta's problem was extremely low grade steel (a result of a deal with Fiat swapping a production line (124?) for raw steel which was the wrong grade for car bodies. This was compounded by inadequate spot welding penetration depth for the front suspension mountings.Although FIAT certainly saved the marque, with it came a gradual watering down of the marque’s values, so the first FIAT cars (like my current Fulvia) came with complex, difficult body designs, built with lower grade steel and weak quality control.
Betas (of which I’ve owned three) where certainly no worse than anything around at the time, either British, European or Japanese, (with the exception of the Swedes). Sadly the UK press got hold of the whole ‘Engines falling out of cars’ story and blew it out of all proportion. The Marque never really recovered.
What’s often forgotten is that Betas still sold in large numbers and with their lovey twin cam engines, disc brakes all round and independent coil suspension, were leagues ahead of the BL and Ford equivalents.
You could still easily use a well sorted Beta as a daily, no problem at all.
However as said above, the marque's technically dead, long since forgotten by FIAT in favour of Alfa and the 500.
This resulted in front suspension collapsing on high loading from new on the early cars, causing a number of deaths across Europe. Then refusing a recall. Rectified in later cars, but the damage had been done.
madjules said:
Pre the FIAT takeover in the late sixties Lancia was viewed very much as a gentleman’s carriage, in the same vain as an Audi or BMW is today, with the coach built models up there with a modern Bentley.
I seem to recall the list price of a Lancia Fulvia was higher than a Jaguar E Type. I do think Lancia had a rough deal especially over the Beta which did have a problem with the very early cars but so did many cars of that era. On the other hand it was very very hard to break the mechanics.
Historically as has been said Lancia was a very respective and innovative car maker - first monocoque/first V6, I think first independent front suspension etc etc etc.
For my part they made some fabulous cars. The Fulvia 1300 had more or less the same power as a 2 litre Ford engine of the same era.
I very much enjoyed my Beta HPE Volumex. In my view the Fulvia was the last which had major pre-Fiat input and was a fantastically engineered car. Driving one and comparing it to what else was on the market even a generation later did make you wonder what everyone else was doing in the meantime.
For example, if you look at the quality of the castings, they were superior even to Ferrari castings of the same era.
I've had about 50 Italian cars over the years and Lancia has always been a favourite of mine. Although there were some mediocre cars post Fiat take-over, there were still some spectacular ones, the most notable being the integrale which is still a lovely thing to drive 30-odd years after first being introduced.
It is a great shame that the Lancia name has withered away to almost nothing now.
Historically as has been said Lancia was a very respective and innovative car maker - first monocoque/first V6, I think first independent front suspension etc etc etc.
For my part they made some fabulous cars. The Fulvia 1300 had more or less the same power as a 2 litre Ford engine of the same era.
I very much enjoyed my Beta HPE Volumex. In my view the Fulvia was the last which had major pre-Fiat input and was a fantastically engineered car. Driving one and comparing it to what else was on the market even a generation later did make you wonder what everyone else was doing in the meantime.
For example, if you look at the quality of the castings, they were superior even to Ferrari castings of the same era.
I've had about 50 Italian cars over the years and Lancia has always been a favourite of mine. Although there were some mediocre cars post Fiat take-over, there were still some spectacular ones, the most notable being the integrale which is still a lovely thing to drive 30-odd years after first being introduced.
It is a great shame that the Lancia name has withered away to almost nothing now.
eldar said:
The Beta's problem was extremely low grade steel (a result of a deal with Fiat swapping a production line (124?) for raw steel which was the wrong grade for car bodies. This was compounded by inadequate spot welding penetration depth for the front suspension mountings.
This resulted in front suspension collapsing on high loading from new on the early cars, causing a number of deaths across Europe. Then refusing a recall. Rectified in later cars, but the damage had been done.
Do you have a source for that?This resulted in front suspension collapsing on high loading from new on the early cars, causing a number of deaths across Europe. Then refusing a recall. Rectified in later cars, but the damage had been done.
I know it's wiki so not to be trusted, but:
wikipedia said:
Unfortunately the Beta gained a reputation for being rust-prone, particularly the 1st Series vehicles (built from 1972 to 1975). A widely circulated rumor states that the cars used Soviet steel supplied to Fiat in return for building the Lada factory.[19] However, these claims have never been verified. The steel problems are more likely due to poor rustproofing techniques as well as the prolonged strikes that plagued Italy at that time rather than the metal's origin.
The corrosion problems could be structural; for instance where the subframe carrying the engine and gearbox was bolted to the underside of the car. The box section to which the rear of the subframe was mounted could corrode badly, causing the subframe to become loose. Although tales of subframes dropping out of vehicles were simply not true, a vehicle with a loose subframe would fail a technical inspection. It was not just the Series 1 cars or saloons - according to an employee of the recycling firm that disposed of the Betas, the Series 2, HPE, Coupe and Spider models were all affected and by late 1983, the scrap dealer Hallett metals in Crewkerne, Somerset had crushed the last of the affected cars. In fact, by 1983 Series 2 cars outnumbered Series 1 models by a large percentage. Deliveries to Hallett Metals were handled mainly by transport company Abbey Hill. Before being crushed (flattened), the engine and gearboxes would be removed and placed in a separate container and no parts were to be removed or resold to the public. In the UK (Lancia's largest export market at the time),[20] the company listened to the complaints from its dealers and customers and commenced a campaign to buy back vehicles affected by the subframe problem. Some of these vehicles were 6 years old or older and belonged to 2nd or 3rd owners. Customers were invited to present their cars to a Lancia dealer for an inspection. If their vehicle was affected by the subframe problem, the customer was offered a part exchange deal to buy another Lancia or Fiat car. The cars that failed the inspection were scrapped. However, on 9 April 1980 the Daily Mirror and TV programmes reported on the issue. There were claims that the problem persisted in later cars by showing photographs of scrapped 1st Series saloons, referring to them as being newer than five and six years old. Other contemporary manufacturers whose cars also suffered from corrosion were not treated as harshly.[21][22][23] Lancia had already introduced one year previously a 6-year anti-corrosion warranty - an automotive first in the UK. Whilst later Betas (2nd Series cars) had reinforced subframe mounting points and post-1979 cars were better protected from the elements, these issues damaged the whole marque's sales success on most export markets. The revision to the crossmember was quite simple and meant turning it through 180 degrees forming an 'n' channel rather than a 'u' channel thus preventing dirt and water collecting and causing rust.
If nothing else, you could maybe update that article on wiki?The corrosion problems could be structural; for instance where the subframe carrying the engine and gearbox was bolted to the underside of the car. The box section to which the rear of the subframe was mounted could corrode badly, causing the subframe to become loose. Although tales of subframes dropping out of vehicles were simply not true, a vehicle with a loose subframe would fail a technical inspection. It was not just the Series 1 cars or saloons - according to an employee of the recycling firm that disposed of the Betas, the Series 2, HPE, Coupe and Spider models were all affected and by late 1983, the scrap dealer Hallett metals in Crewkerne, Somerset had crushed the last of the affected cars. In fact, by 1983 Series 2 cars outnumbered Series 1 models by a large percentage. Deliveries to Hallett Metals were handled mainly by transport company Abbey Hill. Before being crushed (flattened), the engine and gearboxes would be removed and placed in a separate container and no parts were to be removed or resold to the public. In the UK (Lancia's largest export market at the time),[20] the company listened to the complaints from its dealers and customers and commenced a campaign to buy back vehicles affected by the subframe problem. Some of these vehicles were 6 years old or older and belonged to 2nd or 3rd owners. Customers were invited to present their cars to a Lancia dealer for an inspection. If their vehicle was affected by the subframe problem, the customer was offered a part exchange deal to buy another Lancia or Fiat car. The cars that failed the inspection were scrapped. However, on 9 April 1980 the Daily Mirror and TV programmes reported on the issue. There were claims that the problem persisted in later cars by showing photographs of scrapped 1st Series saloons, referring to them as being newer than five and six years old. Other contemporary manufacturers whose cars also suffered from corrosion were not treated as harshly.[21][22][23] Lancia had already introduced one year previously a 6-year anti-corrosion warranty - an automotive first in the UK. Whilst later Betas (2nd Series cars) had reinforced subframe mounting points and post-1979 cars were better protected from the elements, these issues damaged the whole marque's sales success on most export markets. The revision to the crossmember was quite simple and meant turning it through 180 degrees forming an 'n' channel rather than a 'u' channel thus preventing dirt and water collecting and causing rust.
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