Toyo Proxes T1-R poor steering feel and response

[Pie-n-Peys]

Hi all,

I just wanted to get some of your opinions on this observation.

I got a full set of Toyo Proxes T1-R tyres for my Civic Type R recently. This was down to a mix of performance and affordability. A few people on here recommended them and they have decent reviews online. I'm aware they're not the pinnacle of sports tyres but should be a decent performing tyre.

However, I've noticed that when pushing on a bit, the tyres feel really spongy through the steering. The response between turning the wheel and the car changing direction seems to be delayed and there seems to be a definite 'give' in the tyres which dilutes the response and feel of the steering input. Imagine going through a slalom of cones and when you turn the wheel to change direction, it would feel like the car is still finishing off the last input or not quite finished straightening out.

This is made even worse when driving my other half's Fiesta ST with factory Bridgestone tyres. This car changes direction immediately with each turn of the steering wheel.

As you can imagine, this is pretty annoying when wanting to have an enthusiastic drive. It kills a lot of the enjoyment and response of the car/chassis. The tyres are inflated to Honda recommended pressures, but i'm not sure if adding/removing pressure would cure this issue? They do seem to have impressive grip, but its overshadowed by the poor steering feel and response.

Thoughts?

[Monty Python]

How many miles have you done one them?

[Pie-n-Peys]

Approx 6,000 miles now. Maybe a tad more.

Id noticed the issue pretty much straight away, but I haven't had the car long and the tyres that were on it previously were a right mess of mis-matched cheap crap, so I was grateful just to get a set of decent tyres on it!

[vsonix]

Hmm. I think they are known for having slightly softer sidewalls but they're also popular with people that run a bit of stretch so it's possible that perhaps if you're running the manufacturer's recommended size they're a bit too soft, but if you had dropped from a 45 to a 40 profile that was a bit narrower they'd work better? I have some Toyo tyres on the back of my Z3 at the moment but they're a different series that's meant more for regular road use, they're not the best tyres I've ever had but they seem to perform OK on the Z which out of all the cars I have ever owned is the most sensitive to which tyres are used. It came with some kind of 'Arcron' things fitted when I bought it which made the car feel downright dangerous even in the dry.

[parabolica]

Totally subjective to the car IMO; I had them on one of my Clios and they were great - same tyre was rubbish on my 93 Aero that came after. Ended up with Vredestein Sessanta instead which were brilliant, so got them again when I got my 645ci and that was a big mistake; rears wore out in about 5k!

[Krikkit]

They do have quite soft sidewalls, try increasing the pressures a little.

[Pie-n-Peys]

vsonix said:

Hmm. I think they are known for having slightly softer sidewalls

This might be the issue. The Bridgestones on the OH's Fiesta have a much firmer side wall. You can tell even by pressing them with your hand.

[V8 TEJ]

Sounds a bit strange TBH. I have them on my Peugeot 205 in 195/50R15 flavour and have covered 20k happy miles on them. I am an 'enthusiastic' driver and find them to offer excellent grip in most conditions.

I also fitted some to my Wife's ex-car (Celica VVT-i) in 225/40/R18 size and also found them to be marvellous.

When my Avons wear down on the E55 I am planning to fit these to that too!

I did find that when they were new (on both cars) they felt a bit 'slippery' like a layer had to be worn off or something. After this point they feel really grippy and are quiet for a directional tyre IMO.

[SonicShadow]

T1R's simply aren't that good by modern standards. It's an old design now. When they first came out they offered decent dry performance for a budget/mid range tyre which is where their reputation comes from.

[Tran]

Pie-n-Peys said:

This was down to a mix of performance and affordability.

Fixed that for you. Just buy some actual performance tyres.

[Pie-n-Peys]

V8 TEJ said:

I did find that when they were new (on both cars) they felt a bit 'slippery' like a layer had to be worn off or something. After this point they feel really grippy and are quiet for a directional tyre IMO.

Its not a lack of grip that's the issue, its the feel of the tyre when leaning on them in longer corners, and when changing direction quickly that kills the response of the car. The progression to the limits of grip (to understeer) is all spongy!

[otolith]

The OEM Bridgestones on a Civic Type-R have stiff sidewalls, The T1Rs don't.

[V8 TEJ]

Hmm, strange. Maybe it's as a poster above has said. It depends on which car they are fitted to

[Monty Python]

otolith said:

The OEM Bridgestones on a Civic Type-R have stiff sidewalls, The T1Rs don't.

This is probably the issue - the suspension/steering may be set up for a particular type of tyre (i.e. with a reasonably stiff sidewall), and fitting tyres with a softer sidewall has introduced a degree of flex into the suspension/steering.

[Digitalize]

T1R's are soft tyres, for really light cars you don't notice it as bad, but even the Civic might be a bit much. Try putting an extra 5psi in and go for a drive, see if that improves things, just play around with the pressures a bit basically.

[Pie-n-Peys]

Tran said:

Fixed that for you. Just buy some actual performance tyres.

Thanks.

[chryslerben]

Pie-n-Peys said:

Hi all,

I just wanted to get some of your opinions on this observation.

I got a full set of Toyo Proxes T1-R tyres for my Civic Type R recently. This was down to a mix of performance and affordability. A few people on here recommended them and they have decent reviews online. I'm aware they're not the pinnacle of sports tyres but should be a decent performing tyre.

However, I've noticed that when pushing on a bit, the tyres feel really spongy through the steering. The response between turning the wheel and the car changing direction seems to be delayed and there seems to be a definite 'give' in the tyres which dilutes the response and feel of the steering input. Imagine going through a slalom of cones and when you turn the wheel to change direction, it would feel like the car is still finishing off the last input or not quite finished straightening out.

This is made even worse when driving my other half's Fiesta ST with factory Bridgestone tyres. This car changes direction immediately with each turn of the steering wheel.

As you can imagine, this is pretty annoying when wanting to have an enthusiastic drive. It kills a lot of the enjoyment and response of the car/chassis. The tyres are inflated to Honda recommended pressures, but i'm not sure if adding/removing pressure would cure this issue? They do seem to have impressive grip, but its overshadowed by the poor steering feel and response.

Thoughts?

Have you had the steering alignment checked recently?

[SirSquidalot]

It will be the soft sidewalls, i had some on my MX5. On track the soft sidewall was a really odd feeling, have now gone to Nankang NS-2R's and from initial driving the steering feel is 100% better. On track next friday so we will see how they hold up!

[MurderousCrow]

Pie-n-Peys said:

Thoughts?

Know exactly what you mean.

I recently bought my second EP3 CTR. I owned the first a few years ago, and it had T1-Rs on for most of its time with me. Steering feel is not a strong point on the EP3 in any case - electric power assistance and near-zero positive caster makes it very unfeelsome. Add to that the steering rack wear issue and the car can feel extremely 'dead' through the wheel. Not what you expect from a car wearing the red 'H'.

I did briefly experiment with raising the pressures. Unsurprisingly this just increased the propensity for understeer. I'd especially watch this if driving in a 'spirited' manner: as the temps increase the pressures will too so do consider that.

Anyway, my first move on buying my current EP3 was to fit it with Yoko AD08Rs. The difference from the Uniroyal Rainsports previously fitted is night and day - although I would even rank those above the T1Rs in terms of feel. The car now has very little of the squishiness I associated with my old Civic.

The AD08r is obviously a lot more expensive than the Toyos, but I may fit cheaper Federal 595RSR or the similar Nankang NS2r next time. They get good reviews and performance is supposed to be as good as the Yokos. Others can probably advise better on those.

In summary I agree, the Toyo is a bad choice for this car. Find something with a stiff sidewall and you'll notice a big difference.

Luke

[Pie-n-Peys]

chryslerben said:

Have you had the steering alignment checked recently?

Yep. That's the first thing I had checked and corrected before getting new tyres fitted.

Looks like it was just a poor tyre choice by me. whoops!