Intermittent start up problem
Discussion
Thanks for the tip on using TVR diagnostics. I would probably never have tried it otherwise.
I find it pretty flaky though. It keeps loosing connection to the MBE and crashes my PC when I close the program.
MBETool has a rock solid comm's connection so I know it's not my laptop.
I'll keep driving it
and monitoring over the next few days and report back.
cheers
S
I find it pretty flaky though. It keeps loosing connection to the MBE and crashes my PC when I close the program.
MBETool has a rock solid comm's connection so I know it's not my laptop.
I'll keep driving it
and monitoring over the next few days and report back.cheers
S
PetrolHeadPete said:
Forgot to mention you can run old tvr diags on a modern laptop out of a virtual machine running xp. Just install virtual box. Use the built in xp image and be sure to add the virtual serial port extension when asked. Works fine.
Pete .. when you do this does it act as a separate computer, ie do you then have to run any other programs you might want to use through virtualbox too ?I use disgs software alongside other remapping software so would want to run several programs at once, can the other remapping programs i already have installed be run simultaneously in win10 whilst running the tvr diags through virtualbox?
non_linear said:
I find it pretty flaky though. It keeps loosing connection to the MBE and crashes my PC when I close the program.
S
there's a patch version which stops this happening ..S
try the tuscan version on this website ..
https://tvrtuscan.info/downloads
spitfire4v8 said:
Pete .. when you do this does it act as a separate computer, ie do you then have to run any other programs you might want to use through virtualbox too ?
I use disgs software alongside other remapping software so would want to run several programs at once, can the other remapping programs i already have installed be run simultaneously in win10 whilst running the tvr diags through virtualbox?
Joolz, probably worth explaining a little about Virtual Machines (VM), of which Oracle's VirtualBox is one. Versions are available for many platforms including many versions of Linux and Windows. VMWare is another VM (that I use) that provides a similar environment.I use disgs software alongside other remapping software so would want to run several programs at once, can the other remapping programs i already have installed be run simultaneously in win10 whilst running the tvr diags through virtualbox?
A VM is simply a program that runs like any other program, so in general, yes you can run other programs in parallel with it on the same base operating system (OS).
Within a VM you can load another operating system as if it were on another bare machine, including XP. Then within that you can install any program that runs on XP and run it. The only complication is that specific hardware cannot typically (there are exceptions) be shared between between the base operating system and the operating system in the VM. That is why Pete said 'be sure to add the virtual serial port extension when asked'. So you couldn't use the port connecting to the ECU in both OS's simultaneously, but it is easy to switch use of the port between OS's when required.
thank youspitfire4v8 said:
Pete .. when you do this does it act as a separate computer, ie do you then have to run any other programs you might want to use through virtualbox too ?
Yeah, it acts just like a separate pc so you need to install your other programs in that session and then once it's all set up you save that whole lot as a new image so that you can restore to that state next boot.A quick intermediate update: After many starts now I have not had a single bad one after changing the NVRAM. In my opinion the battery in the Dallas NVRAM had run down and was causing the problems I was seeing. I'll continue to monitor and post a further update in a month or two.
I have seen a website that shows how to cut open the Dallas chip so it is possible to measure the battery voltage. I may do that as confirmation that this was the problem.
Many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread!
I have seen a website that shows how to cut open the Dallas chip so it is possible to measure the battery voltage. I may do that as confirmation that this was the problem.
Many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread!
I've opened up the little darling: The +ve terminal is to the top, so easy to measure without risk of shorting the battery out while exposing it. I measured 0.4V, which could be best described as dead.
These are now at least 5 years past their guaranteed lifespan on even the newest cars so my guess would be that most of them are in the same state.
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/VJkVJfxW.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/DC7xQUZh" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[url][img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/DC7xQUZh.jpg)
These are now at least 5 years past their guaranteed lifespan on even the newest cars so my guess would be that most of them are in the same state.
It's a STEEP learning curve working on the Tamora and I want to change this as part of it's servicing (a 2003/21k). I have the EvoOlli reader, although I've not plugged it in yet (I have had other things to do on my other TVR builds). First I need to buy one (where is the best place, I know Dom has them on the shelf, I am in no hurry to purchase) and then do the install and reset the adaptive's (how, is it obvious once I am plugged in to the car)...I also want to move the heater Amp, whilst upgrading the seat belt cover to the later version (moulds made and parts created..they will be trimmed soon). A@
Edited by Adrian@ on Monday 29th November 16:13
non_linear said:
I've opened up the little darling: The +ve terminal is to the top, so easy to measure without risk of shorting the battery out while exposing it. I measured 0.4V, which could be best described as dead.
These are now at least 5 years past their guaranteed lifespan on even the newest cars so my guess would be that most of them are in the same state.
Certainly looks as if you have found your issue, well done!These are now at least 5 years past their guaranteed lifespan on even the newest cars so my guess would be that most of them are in the same state.
As per my previous post though, I'd be really surprised if MBE designed this ECU without a permanent 12v connection (as per most car stereo's to avoid losing customer tuning/settings when the ignition is off). I have found pin-out diagrams on the MBE website for current ECU's and they show a permanent 12v connection, in addition to the switched one, but unfortunately I can't find a full pin-out for any of the ones in TVR's. I have seen a number of partial pin-out and connector diagrams and although they show power supplied on pin 52 via a white wire, there are other wires going to the ECU that are not listed. One of those could well be a permanent 12v supply.
Assuming this is the case, the battery will eventually run down, but will last a lot longer than than the 10 years mentioned. Of course, if the ECU has been disconnected from the car, or the main battery has been disconnected for a long period, that would cause the NVRAM's battery to drain faster.
I did change one of these DS1230Y chips in a Cerbera I owned some years ago, due to some bad running issues, but that car had been stood for many years without a battery connected. Since then though I've had another 4 cars with MBE ECU's and none of those have needed the NVRAM replacing.
I bought the replacement part from Mouser electronics, well under £20 at the time.
Edited by Englishman on Monday 29th November 17:35
Interesting. The circuits I have seen suggested otherwise, but as you say this is quite poorly documented. I'll have another look. It might be quicker to crawl in there again with a voltmeter and see if there is voltage across the power pins!
The implication if this is true is that you should disconnect the battery before attempting to change the NVRAM.
Another point worth mentioning is that these are ESD sensitive devices, so be careful when handling them. If it comes supplied in a plastic bag send it back, (unless it's a special conductive bag designed for ESD sensitive components).
I would get mine from a main distributor (such as mouser, farnell etc) or from someone like Jody at Python Racing who is an electronics engineer.
The implication if this is true is that you should disconnect the battery before attempting to change the NVRAM.
Another point worth mentioning is that these are ESD sensitive devices, so be careful when handling them. If it comes supplied in a plastic bag send it back, (unless it's a special conductive bag designed for ESD sensitive components).
I would get mine from a main distributor (such as mouser, farnell etc) or from someone like Jody at Python Racing who is an electronics engineer.
non_linear said:
Interesting. The circuits I have seen suggested otherwise, but as you say this is quite poorly documented. I'll have another look. It might be quicker to crawl in there again with a voltmeter and see if there is voltage across the power pins!
Yes, disconnecting the ECU and checking the voltage on each pin of the ECU connector with the ignition off would be an interesting experiment. Still looking for evidence, but have found a fuse list for the Cerb that lists an 'Engine ECU backup & steering wheel ECU suppression' one as well as an 'Injectors & engine ECU' one.
working through the Tamora wiring diagrams I have extracted and compiled the following:
The ecu connects to the main wiring loom through J22. This is the only place it connects to the main loom so it has to get power from one of these pins.
You can see that pin 17 is ecu power which comes through the inertia switch, which gets it's power from the immobiliser.
pin 3 is labelled BATT, but if you look at J6, which plugs into J22, pin 3 is not used.
pins 2,11 are marked IGNITION, which will be switched circuits.
The drawings are complicated and I may be mis-reading them but I can't see how this is powered permanently. The Cerb of course may be different.
The ecu connects to the main wiring loom through J22. This is the only place it connects to the main loom so it has to get power from one of these pins.
You can see that pin 17 is ecu power which comes through the inertia switch, which gets it's power from the immobiliser.
pin 3 is labelled BATT, but if you look at J6, which plugs into J22, pin 3 is not used.
pins 2,11 are marked IGNITION, which will be switched circuits.
The drawings are complicated and I may be mis-reading them but I can't see how this is powered permanently. The Cerb of course may be different.
Edited by non_linear on Tuesday 30th November 13:52
This is getting interesting!
I've now found an early Cerb circuit diagram below, that clearly shows pin 6 on connector 3 (bottom RHS) as 'Battery to ECU'. But on the bottom LHS of the circuit diagram the end of the wire from pin 6 it says 'not connected yet'! Note 3 at the bottom of the drawing also suggests that TVR intended a permanent 12v supply to the ECU. So perhaps TVR thought, as I do, that there would be a permanent supply to the ECU to retain adaptive data etc?
To try to clear this up once and for all, I have now emailed MBE to see if there should be a permanent 12v supply to TVR ECU's and, if not, to establish if we should all be swapping out Dallas chips at some point. If that proves to be the case, the more the cars are used the less drain there will be on the NVRAM battery of course! Will let you know if I get a response.
I've now found an early Cerb circuit diagram below, that clearly shows pin 6 on connector 3 (bottom RHS) as 'Battery to ECU'. But on the bottom LHS of the circuit diagram the end of the wire from pin 6 it says 'not connected yet'! Note 3 at the bottom of the drawing also suggests that TVR intended a permanent 12v supply to the ECU. So perhaps TVR thought, as I do, that there would be a permanent supply to the ECU to retain adaptive data etc?
To try to clear this up once and for all, I have now emailed MBE to see if there should be a permanent 12v supply to TVR ECU's and, if not, to establish if we should all be swapping out Dallas chips at some point. If that proves to be the case, the more the cars are used the less drain there will be on the NVRAM battery of course!
Will let you know if I get a response.non_linear said:
The drawings are complicated and I may be mis-reading them but I can't see how this is powered permanently[/url]
Verifying that you are reading the diagrams correctlyHave read through the very same diagrams many times
There is always the possibility of an incorrect diagram
You have very likely viewed the below image
The battery voltage readout below
shown in this topic https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... is interesting
Is the above voltage ignition supply voltage rather than battery voltage?
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