Arggh Clutch - Let the mods begin!
Discussion
Hi Everyone,
I'd like to introduce myself, I'm Oli and I am the proud owner of this 07 V8 Vantage 4.3:
I got her at with 4500 on the clock and she has been more or less my daily driver for the last two years. My daily commute is about 70 miles mostly motorway and I have also done some fun and sometimes spirited trips away which have included Le Mans and Spa.
My enjoyment of ownership has thus far only been marred by the frustrating fact that whenever I want to downchange, dabbing the throttle with the side of my shoe - a technique that has historically proved effective in any other make of sports car, seems to have no effect at all on the engine. I feel obliged to plan downchanges long enough in advance that I may write to the ECU and cordially request an increase in engine revs before I can change gear. This process whilst appropriately formal for such a Gentleman's marque is distinctly irritating.
Shortly after purchase, I was excited to learn about the possibility of massively sharpening the throttle response by fitting a lightweight flywheel and clutch so I set about wearing out my clutch as fast as possible*:
(*joke)
I actually reckon that I could count on one hand (ok, maybe both hands) the amount of times I have done a standing start including the three runs up the 'pod I did, so I was [slightly**] annoyed that after just over 30k miles and two weeks before Christmas, the clutch went from perfectly functional to not allowing me to change gear without rev-matching in the space of about 30miles. The journey to work the next day through north London traffic was fun, as I needed to stop the engine at every set of traffic lights and re-start in first to get going again.
(**massively)
With DMS no longer around I phoned 4 or 5 different dealers to ask about clutch replacement and most of them didn't think that 30k was excessively low mileage for replacement. In the course of my research one place stood out from the rest as being knowledgeable and keen to help when it came to replacement - Bamford Rose. Mike was very patient and answered all of my questions relating to the original clutch, and also what options he was able to provide in the form of a lightweight flywheel and substantially stronger (and longer lasting) twin-plate clutch. We also discussed the benefits that the Bamford Rose exhaust Manifold & Cats would bring in conjunction with Air-intake modification to further improve throttle response and torque.
I carefully considered my options over the next week and decided that since I was doing so many miles and would doubtless need to replace the clutch again by the time I came to sell, the extra investment in the uprated clutch would hopefully pay off in the long term. I took the plunge and called Mike and booked in for the full package of Lightweight Flywheel, Uprated Twin-Plate clutch, Air intake modification and BR manifolds and cats. I will be retaining the original back-box as I want to keep the switchable exhaust valves.
During the patient wait for my turn to come around, Mike mentioned that he had a slightly modified new exhaust system in the works but it is not due for delivery for about a month and would I like to wait to try it out? The answer was obviously yes!
As this will be the first 4.3 to be fitted with the lightweight flywheel and clutch along with the exhaust, we decided we will do the conversion in stages:
1. Dyno run to measure totally standard car power output.
2. Fit Lightweight Clutch and Flywheel and intake mods
3. Dyno run to measure increased power due to intake mods.
4. Fit Manifolds and high flow Cats
5. Dyno run to measure increased power due to exhaust mods.
This will enable us to see exactly how the new exhaust performs, and also the real world benefit of the intake mods which are similar to the AM power upgrade.
I would like to mention that I have no connection with Bamford Rose, I am writing this up in the hope that it will help anyone else whose clutch has gone or is thinking about any of the upgrades that I am having.
I will keep you all posted.
Mike- If there is anything which you would like to elaborate on, please be my guest.
Thanks for reading,
Oli.
I'd like to introduce myself, I'm Oli and I am the proud owner of this 07 V8 Vantage 4.3:
I got her at with 4500 on the clock and she has been more or less my daily driver for the last two years. My daily commute is about 70 miles mostly motorway and I have also done some fun and sometimes spirited trips away which have included Le Mans and Spa.
My enjoyment of ownership has thus far only been marred by the frustrating fact that whenever I want to downchange, dabbing the throttle with the side of my shoe - a technique that has historically proved effective in any other make of sports car, seems to have no effect at all on the engine. I feel obliged to plan downchanges long enough in advance that I may write to the ECU and cordially request an increase in engine revs before I can change gear. This process whilst appropriately formal for such a Gentleman's marque is distinctly irritating.
Shortly after purchase, I was excited to learn about the possibility of massively sharpening the throttle response by fitting a lightweight flywheel and clutch so I set about wearing out my clutch as fast as possible*:
(*joke)
I actually reckon that I could count on one hand (ok, maybe both hands) the amount of times I have done a standing start including the three runs up the 'pod I did, so I was [slightly**] annoyed that after just over 30k miles and two weeks before Christmas, the clutch went from perfectly functional to not allowing me to change gear without rev-matching in the space of about 30miles. The journey to work the next day through north London traffic was fun, as I needed to stop the engine at every set of traffic lights and re-start in first to get going again.
(**massively)
With DMS no longer around I phoned 4 or 5 different dealers to ask about clutch replacement and most of them didn't think that 30k was excessively low mileage for replacement. In the course of my research one place stood out from the rest as being knowledgeable and keen to help when it came to replacement - Bamford Rose. Mike was very patient and answered all of my questions relating to the original clutch, and also what options he was able to provide in the form of a lightweight flywheel and substantially stronger (and longer lasting) twin-plate clutch. We also discussed the benefits that the Bamford Rose exhaust Manifold & Cats would bring in conjunction with Air-intake modification to further improve throttle response and torque.
I carefully considered my options over the next week and decided that since I was doing so many miles and would doubtless need to replace the clutch again by the time I came to sell, the extra investment in the uprated clutch would hopefully pay off in the long term. I took the plunge and called Mike and booked in for the full package of Lightweight Flywheel, Uprated Twin-Plate clutch, Air intake modification and BR manifolds and cats. I will be retaining the original back-box as I want to keep the switchable exhaust valves.
During the patient wait for my turn to come around, Mike mentioned that he had a slightly modified new exhaust system in the works but it is not due for delivery for about a month and would I like to wait to try it out? The answer was obviously yes!
As this will be the first 4.3 to be fitted with the lightweight flywheel and clutch along with the exhaust, we decided we will do the conversion in stages:
1. Dyno run to measure totally standard car power output.
2. Fit Lightweight Clutch and Flywheel and intake mods
3. Dyno run to measure increased power due to intake mods.
4. Fit Manifolds and high flow Cats
5. Dyno run to measure increased power due to exhaust mods.
This will enable us to see exactly how the new exhaust performs, and also the real world benefit of the intake mods which are similar to the AM power upgrade.
I would like to mention that I have no connection with Bamford Rose, I am writing this up in the hope that it will help anyone else whose clutch has gone or is thinking about any of the upgrades that I am having.
I will keep you all posted.
Mike- If there is anything which you would like to elaborate on, please be my guest.
Thanks for reading,
Oli.
I just did filters, exhaust and cats and my AFR now stays above 12.....much higher than below 10 when stock. The Vantage stock is very rich and power restrictive, with a "lazy" throttle. My throttle response is now immediate and my dyno results are in the mid 400's.
I think Mikes touch will solve your throttle concerns and put a huge smile on your face.
I think Mikes touch will solve your throttle concerns and put a huge smile on your face.
OliHall said:
I feel obliged to plan downchanges long enough in advance that I may write to the ECU and cordially request an increase in engine revs before I can change gear. This process whilst appropriately formal for such a Gentleman's marque is distinctly irritating.
Hi Oli, welcome and a genuine lol at the above - the throttle is tardy on a good day. I will be particularly interested about the clutch / flywheel part of the work as I find the inability to heel / toe very annoying. Cheers
Kris
Hey Oli
I have had the lightweight flywheel and clutch fitted by Bamford Rose along with a few other bits and pieces !!
there is a thread I have written http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f... to get serious !!! the next step to more power !!&mid=40406 have a look on there. I had the work done just under a year ago and have covered nearly 10,000 miles and can report no problems. the clutch is just fantastic so strong and also so smooth, gear changes are seamless.
The flywheel just allows the car to rev up so freely which along with the clutch makes shifting sooo much quicker, so when you are pushing it it makes it more confidence inspiring.
I have had the lightweight flywheel and clutch fitted by Bamford Rose along with a few other bits and pieces !!
there is a thread I have written http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f... to get serious !!! the next step to more power !!&mid=40406 have a look on there. I had the work done just under a year ago and have covered nearly 10,000 miles and can report no problems. the clutch is just fantastic so strong and also so smooth, gear changes are seamless.
The flywheel just allows the car to rev up so freely which along with the clutch makes shifting sooo much quicker, so when you are pushing it it makes it more confidence inspiring.
Hooray! the day has arrived!
Mike and Adrian from Bamford Rose came to visit earlier in the week.
We loaded my sick car on to the trailer and took her down to AMD for a power run.
When we came to unload at AMD, the clutch problem had mysteriously vanished, and after not being able to select any gears while the engine was running, the clutch now worked perfectly. This made unloading much easier but it did make me wonder whether I should be spending money on a new clutch or or whether I could get away with driving it like it is!
We put it on the rollers and did several power runs to get a base power figure so that we could judge the increase in power from the exhaust and intake mods.
The noise was nothing short of amazing. I can't wait to hear the second time with the new exhaust!
On the first run the correction factors for air temp and barometric pressure were not right and we didn't get a meaningful power figure. We adjusted the correction factors but unfortunately the wheels then started slipping on the rollers. The guys from AMD adjusted the tie down straps and had some sticky stuff to srpay on the tyres that stopped them slipping but by the time we got a good run we were only getting about 365bhp adjusted flywheel power. We think this was because we had already done about six or seven power runs and the engine intake temps were now quite high. Mike kindly offered to take the uncorrected data from the very first power run when the wheels didn't slip to calculate the adjusted flywheel bhp, so we should soon be able to see what base power we will be improving from!
Oli.
Mike and Adrian from Bamford Rose came to visit earlier in the week.
We loaded my sick car on to the trailer and took her down to AMD for a power run.
When we came to unload at AMD, the clutch problem had mysteriously vanished, and after not being able to select any gears while the engine was running, the clutch now worked perfectly. This made unloading much easier but it did make me wonder whether I should be spending money on a new clutch or or whether I could get away with driving it like it is!
We put it on the rollers and did several power runs to get a base power figure so that we could judge the increase in power from the exhaust and intake mods.
The noise was nothing short of amazing. I can't wait to hear the second time with the new exhaust!
On the first run the correction factors for air temp and barometric pressure were not right and we didn't get a meaningful power figure. We adjusted the correction factors but unfortunately the wheels then started slipping on the rollers. The guys from AMD adjusted the tie down straps and had some sticky stuff to srpay on the tyres that stopped them slipping but by the time we got a good run we were only getting about 365bhp adjusted flywheel power. We think this was because we had already done about six or seven power runs and the engine intake temps were now quite high. Mike kindly offered to take the uncorrected data from the very first power run when the wheels didn't slip to calculate the adjusted flywheel bhp, so we should soon be able to see what base power we will be improving from!
Oli.
Hi,
I have now had the car back for a few weeks now, and I thought I’d give an update as to how the Bamford Rose lightweight flywheel and twin plate clutch have improved the car.
The car was in for a few days, and once stripped down, the cause of failure of the old clutch was clear. One of the small springs in the centre that damps rotational vibrations had snapped and jammed in the clutch mechanism damaging the friction plate and also scoring the flywheel.
Old flywheel:
The friction plate on the old clutch still had another about 10k in but would have to be replaced along with the flywheel because of the damage caused by the broken spring. With the cost of the BR clutch and flywheel being not too far off the cost of the original AM flywheel and clutch, it was a no-brainer to go for the upgraded parts.
Here is the new flywheel as fitted to the V8 Vantage GT4 race car:
And with the new twin plate clutch fitted:
The first thing I noticed is that the new clutch needs about half the effort to press down! I know that worn out clutches are heavy by comparison, but this is so much lighter than the factory one was even when new. This makes it so much easier to drive round town and in stop start traffic.
Another advantage which I was not expecting is that when changing gear, the box goes between the gears so much faster than before. With the old clutch, I felt as if I had to hold the gear stick against the gate for a fraction of a second before the gear stick would move in to the new gear. This delay in engaging gears is now almost completely gone.
I expect that this is because when you change gear and you move the gear stick out of the first gear, as you push the gear stick against the gate of the new gear, the synchromesh in the gearbox has to speed up or slow down the input shaft and clutch so that it matches speed with the new gear. This causes a delay in the gear shift where the gear stick feels like it can't be pushed into the new gear for a fraction of a second. Because the clutch is now much lighter, the synchros can match the speed much faster and the new gear is ready to go in almost straight away.
The new clutch and flywheel are significantly lighter than the factory items. As can be seen in the pictures the twin plate clutch pack is smaller in diameter which moves a significant amount of mass nearer to the centre line. This means that it takes less torque to spin it up and slow it down with changes in engine speed. The result of this is that the engine feels more lively and responsive. It is now much easier to heel and toe, as when you dab the throttle to raise the engine revs to engage a lower gear, the engine now spins up faster than before making it much easier to make quick downshifts.
To measure exactly how much faster the engine spins up, Mike connected a data logger to the car and measured the time taken for the engine to accelerate from idle to the rev limit with the old and the new clutch and flywheel. The time was measured as the engine revs climbed past 1500 up to the red line. The new clutch and flywheel the engine speed climbed 20% faster!
In short, I am definitely pleased with the results and really happy that I decided to go for the lightweight flywheel and clutch over the factory items. I got the driveability that I was looking for with the easier heel and toe plus the added and completely unexpected advantage of the lighter clutch pedal and significantly easier and faster gear changes.
I’m looking forward to getting the car back in next week to have the new exhaust manifold and cats fitted as this should throw some more power in to the mix to complete the package.
Oli.
I have now had the car back for a few weeks now, and I thought I’d give an update as to how the Bamford Rose lightweight flywheel and twin plate clutch have improved the car.
The car was in for a few days, and once stripped down, the cause of failure of the old clutch was clear. One of the small springs in the centre that damps rotational vibrations had snapped and jammed in the clutch mechanism damaging the friction plate and also scoring the flywheel.
Old flywheel:
The friction plate on the old clutch still had another about 10k in but would have to be replaced along with the flywheel because of the damage caused by the broken spring. With the cost of the BR clutch and flywheel being not too far off the cost of the original AM flywheel and clutch, it was a no-brainer to go for the upgraded parts.
Here is the new flywheel as fitted to the V8 Vantage GT4 race car:
And with the new twin plate clutch fitted:
The first thing I noticed is that the new clutch needs about half the effort to press down! I know that worn out clutches are heavy by comparison, but this is so much lighter than the factory one was even when new. This makes it so much easier to drive round town and in stop start traffic.
Another advantage which I was not expecting is that when changing gear, the box goes between the gears so much faster than before. With the old clutch, I felt as if I had to hold the gear stick against the gate for a fraction of a second before the gear stick would move in to the new gear. This delay in engaging gears is now almost completely gone.
I expect that this is because when you change gear and you move the gear stick out of the first gear, as you push the gear stick against the gate of the new gear, the synchromesh in the gearbox has to speed up or slow down the input shaft and clutch so that it matches speed with the new gear. This causes a delay in the gear shift where the gear stick feels like it can't be pushed into the new gear for a fraction of a second. Because the clutch is now much lighter, the synchros can match the speed much faster and the new gear is ready to go in almost straight away.
The new clutch and flywheel are significantly lighter than the factory items. As can be seen in the pictures the twin plate clutch pack is smaller in diameter which moves a significant amount of mass nearer to the centre line. This means that it takes less torque to spin it up and slow it down with changes in engine speed. The result of this is that the engine feels more lively and responsive. It is now much easier to heel and toe, as when you dab the throttle to raise the engine revs to engage a lower gear, the engine now spins up faster than before making it much easier to make quick downshifts.
To measure exactly how much faster the engine spins up, Mike connected a data logger to the car and measured the time taken for the engine to accelerate from idle to the rev limit with the old and the new clutch and flywheel. The time was measured as the engine revs climbed past 1500 up to the red line. The new clutch and flywheel the engine speed climbed 20% faster!
In short, I am definitely pleased with the results and really happy that I decided to go for the lightweight flywheel and clutch over the factory items. I got the driveability that I was looking for with the easier heel and toe plus the added and completely unexpected advantage of the lighter clutch pedal and significantly easier and faster gear changes.
I’m looking forward to getting the car back in next week to have the new exhaust manifold and cats fitted as this should throw some more power in to the mix to complete the package.
Oli.
New Bamford Rose equal length exhaust manifold has arrived!
pics here...
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
pics here...
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
BamfordMike said:
PistonHead member OliHall is the owner of the latest car in for the Bamford Rose designed and developed exhaust manifolds and catalyst for V8 Vantage.
Despite successfully and reliably improving many 4.3 and 4.7L vantages with our MKI system, we wanted to up the ante and sought for the production of future systems to replicate in terms of finish and quality the render system we use for marketing.
http://www.bamfordrose.com/index.php?option=com_co...
A mean feat...! but success....
Oli's car has already been improved with the Bamford Rose lightweight flywheel and twinplate heavy duty clutch ( http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... ), a power run on a dyno was conducted prior to this mod and gives us a baseline to report the power improvement of our new work of art exhaust manifold.....
Despite successfully and reliably improving many 4.3 and 4.7L vantages with our MKI system, we wanted to up the ante and sought for the production of future systems to replicate in terms of finish and quality the render system we use for marketing.
http://www.bamfordrose.com/index.php?option=com_co...
A mean feat...! but success....
Oli's car has already been improved with the Bamford Rose lightweight flywheel and twinplate heavy duty clutch ( http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... ), a power run on a dyno was conducted prior to this mod and gives us a baseline to report the power improvement of our new work of art exhaust manifold.....
Edited by BamfordMike on Sunday 11th March 21:14
It's on the RHS in the link
http://www.bamfordrose.com/index.php?option=com_co...
Impressive stuff!
eta. Holy crap is that the price!
http://www.bamfordrose.com/index.php?option=com_co...
Impressive stuff!
eta. Holy crap is that the price!
Edited by peterr96 on Monday 12th March 14:32
yaeger said:
Dare I ask the cost of these items in particular the new clutch ? PM if you wish ..
I am definately considering this now as an option for myself.
Hi,I am definately considering this now as an option for myself.
The twin plate clutch and lightweight flywheel was £3500 +vat including fitting and all the necessary new bolts and seals. I'm fairly sure that this also included a new genuine AM hydraulic release bearing (like a clutch slave cylinder).
When I first started to have a problem with the clutch, I phoned three different dealers to get quotes. The main dealer I phoned in London quoted 2200 +vat, and two independents quoted 1915 +vat and 2000 +vat. All these included the clutch and release bearing but not the flywheel as I did not know at the time that the flywheel was knackered.
I believe that the flywheel is about £300 + vat, plus a little extra labour to remove and re-fit. Once you add that on I was up to around 2300-2500 +vat.
So all in, the uprated package was about £1000 +vat more than the standard option. At the time I was thinking that it was normal wear that had caused the clutch to go after 30k, and since I would be keeping the car for another few years, at that rate it would need a new clutch every two years.
Great mirth was found by my friends in the fact that I was averaging about 33p per mile in petrol plus another 10p per mile in clutch!!
The extra cost now should pay for itself in the long run since the new clutch will only have to last an extra 12k above the standard unit and it will have paid for itself and all the extra driveability will come free!
Mike reckons that over 90% of the power gains from the Bamford Rose full exhaust system come from the equal length manifold and 200 cel catalysts. It has been discussed before on here that while the backbox is a benefit due to it’s considerable weight saving, it doesn’t actually give much more than a few extra BHP and it is also quite loud for use on a daily driver. On Mike’s advice, I opted to keep the original back box and therefore retain the switchable exhaust valves. The Manifold and Cats without the backbox fitted are £4500 +vat.
I'm really hoping that the clutch, flywheel and exhaust should make the car as fast and sound a little better than a 4.7 for a fraction of the cost that I would have to spend to trade up to an actual 4.7. I am really looking forward to getting the car back on the rolling road and seeing what the power gains are and seeing what difference they make on the road!
Oli.
Edited by OliHall on Tuesday 13th March 09:19
I just picked my car up from having the new exhaust fitted. OMFG does it make the most amazing noise in the world!
I have kept the original backbox and so I have kept the switchable exhaust valves. I can't believe how quiet it still can be with the valves closed when it sounds to amazing when they are open. I would say that it is almost as quiet as before with the valves closed, but with the valves open, it sounds like a V8 touring car! I cannot describe how good it sounds - I spent most of the pre-handover test drive with uncontrollable giggles as I drove to the petrol station and back (I was on my own at the time).
It is noticeably quicker than before, especially at the top of the rev range. Whereas before there didn't seem like much more power was available above about 5k, it now surges up to the redline. It is also much quicker to go up through the gears because of the light flywheel.
Just before Christmas, I had the geometry done at a local pace to me and unfortunately I found out later that the settings in their alignment computer were incorrect which has made the car very twitchy in high speed corners. I wanted to get the geometry reset to the correct settings before really testing out the new power gains, so I drove it back down to where I live and we put it up on the alignment ramp, unfortunately one of the front lower arm adjustment bolts sheared as we were undoing it so I am just waiting for another cam bolt to be delivered so that we can get it back on the road. I must say I was a bit disappointed to have to leave it in the garage all weekend after just getting it back!
Has anyone else had any problems with the lower arm cam bolts shearing?
I know there was a recall in the US on this part, but I haven’t heard anything about it over here. Also, does anyone know the correct torque setting for all of the the cam bolts?
I think that the guy just did them up FT last time, so I want to make sure that they are all torqued correctly this time.
I will report back as soon as I get it back on the road again.
Oli.
I have kept the original backbox and so I have kept the switchable exhaust valves. I can't believe how quiet it still can be with the valves closed when it sounds to amazing when they are open. I would say that it is almost as quiet as before with the valves closed, but with the valves open, it sounds like a V8 touring car! I cannot describe how good it sounds - I spent most of the pre-handover test drive with uncontrollable giggles as I drove to the petrol station and back (I was on my own at the time).
It is noticeably quicker than before, especially at the top of the rev range. Whereas before there didn't seem like much more power was available above about 5k, it now surges up to the redline. It is also much quicker to go up through the gears because of the light flywheel.
Just before Christmas, I had the geometry done at a local pace to me and unfortunately I found out later that the settings in their alignment computer were incorrect which has made the car very twitchy in high speed corners. I wanted to get the geometry reset to the correct settings before really testing out the new power gains, so I drove it back down to where I live and we put it up on the alignment ramp, unfortunately one of the front lower arm adjustment bolts sheared as we were undoing it so I am just waiting for another cam bolt to be delivered so that we can get it back on the road. I must say I was a bit disappointed to have to leave it in the garage all weekend after just getting it back!
Has anyone else had any problems with the lower arm cam bolts shearing?
I know there was a recall in the US on this part, but I haven’t heard anything about it over here. Also, does anyone know the correct torque setting for all of the the cam bolts?
I think that the guy just did them up FT last time, so I want to make sure that they are all torqued correctly this time.
I will report back as soon as I get it back on the road again.
Oli.
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff