Aston Vs Jag - are we slipping back?
Discussion
yeti said:
I think you can probably guess why this is back to life... The long-awaited F-Type.
Is it going to steal sales from the Vantage? Top of the range has an 8 speed auto, 495bhp, strict 2 seats, and is 80 grand plus toys. And the V6 with 340bhp is less than 60 grand for a thoroughly modern motor car, I very much doubt a second hand Vantage would comprehensively outrun it for the same money.
So the Vantage now has a cheaper rival in the F-Type and the DB9 has a MUCH cheaper rival in the XKR - which is has to be said, is long in the tooth now.
The DB9 has upped it's game with the most recent incarnation and actually isn't overpriced for what it is. Jag seem to have added every piece of bling they have to bump the XKR-S's price beyond 100k, rarified territory for Jaguar. I think the new DB9 is ahead of the XKR-S, even putting pricing to one side.
I don't think the Vantage is ahead of the F-Tyope though, not any more. When is the new Vantage due..? If it were my choice, I would have the Aston because I love Astons, but if you had no interest in either brand, I wonder how many will choose the F-Type? It's just so... new!
Comparing the XKR to the Vantage is hard as you effectively get a DB9-class car for Vantage money. But where does the F-Type fit in? It is, in it's top spec, on paper, better than the Vantage or the aging XKR.
And the raison d'etre of the this thread was always to try and ignore the perceived snob value that Aston has versus Jaguar. The question is still; do they build better cars now?
But it isn't an Aston. Just look at it and then at a Vantage. I think Aston owners buy as much with their hearts as their minds and very few cars have you looking out at the driveway just to look at them. Is it going to steal sales from the Vantage? Top of the range has an 8 speed auto, 495bhp, strict 2 seats, and is 80 grand plus toys. And the V6 with 340bhp is less than 60 grand for a thoroughly modern motor car, I very much doubt a second hand Vantage would comprehensively outrun it for the same money.
So the Vantage now has a cheaper rival in the F-Type and the DB9 has a MUCH cheaper rival in the XKR - which is has to be said, is long in the tooth now.
The DB9 has upped it's game with the most recent incarnation and actually isn't overpriced for what it is. Jag seem to have added every piece of bling they have to bump the XKR-S's price beyond 100k, rarified territory for Jaguar. I think the new DB9 is ahead of the XKR-S, even putting pricing to one side.
I don't think the Vantage is ahead of the F-Tyope though, not any more. When is the new Vantage due..? If it were my choice, I would have the Aston because I love Astons, but if you had no interest in either brand, I wonder how many will choose the F-Type? It's just so... new!
Comparing the XKR to the Vantage is hard as you effectively get a DB9-class car for Vantage money. But where does the F-Type fit in? It is, in it's top spec, on paper, better than the Vantage or the aging XKR.
And the raison d'etre of the this thread was always to try and ignore the perceived snob value that Aston has versus Jaguar. The question is still; do they build better cars now?
There always has been and always will be better made and better performing cars but there will never be another Aston Martin
Putting this in the Aston forum is never going to get completely balanced view 
Jaguar have come a long way in the last 4 years or so and the investment from TATA is showing with cars like the XF, XJ and soon to be released F-type showing the fruits of that investment. The XK is a bit further behind because of when it was released. Look at the price point of the F-type though and its obvious that the next XK will move upmarket to go more head to head with Aston and others. In that same time investment at Aston has been less than comparable and whilst being beautiful cars and driving and handling well that lack of investment is starting to show. At present I wouldnt say that Jag are ahead of Aston but a couple more years of the Indian money and the new XK vs the continuing situation at Aston may reverse that. The market is limited for v12 cars now and key competitors like Bentley have started to offer other more frugal options and reduced emissions etc. and Aston need to do the same.
Jaguar have come a long way in the last 4 years or so and the investment from TATA is showing with cars like the XF, XJ and soon to be released F-type showing the fruits of that investment. The XK is a bit further behind because of when it was released. Look at the price point of the F-type though and its obvious that the next XK will move upmarket to go more head to head with Aston and others. In that same time investment at Aston has been less than comparable and whilst being beautiful cars and driving and handling well that lack of investment is starting to show. At present I wouldnt say that Jag are ahead of Aston but a couple more years of the Indian money and the new XK vs the continuing situation at Aston may reverse that. The market is limited for v12 cars now and key competitors like Bentley have started to offer other more frugal options and reduced emissions etc. and Aston need to do the same.
craigjm said:
Putting this in the Aston forum is never going to get completely balanced view
No s
t Sherlock v8woollie said:
But it isn't an Aston..............
There always has been and always will be better made and better performing cars but there will never be another Aston Martin
Well said that man There always has been and always will be better made and better performing cars but there will never be another Aston Martin
As someone who has driven both as well I do find the comment that it is not an Aston as remarkable. It is basically saying to me that the brand is more important than the substance and I fear Aston are counting on that at the moment. I fear if people actually used their brains more than their heart fewer Astons would be sold as comparing the cars I think the Jaguar is the better engineered car. However, it could be argued that it should be considering the R&D costs of Jaguar compared to Aston.
The worry that I have for Aston is that the modern world does not really lend itself to a small car manufacturer anymore, the world is getting global, costs are getting higher and european laws are getting more and more complex. SO I guess the implication behind the OP's question is: IS Aston on the way out, has it evolved enough to keep it going as a serious car manufacturer or is there a potential for it to be another TVR - loved by enthusiasts however with the potential to become dinosaurs.
In my view, unless Aston produces something different with the WOW factor rather than just tweaks or countless special editions I fear they will becomes like the pyramids: beautiful, looked at with some awe, but consigned to history.
The worry that I have for Aston is that the modern world does not really lend itself to a small car manufacturer anymore, the world is getting global, costs are getting higher and european laws are getting more and more complex. SO I guess the implication behind the OP's question is: IS Aston on the way out, has it evolved enough to keep it going as a serious car manufacturer or is there a potential for it to be another TVR - loved by enthusiasts however with the potential to become dinosaurs.
In my view, unless Aston produces something different with the WOW factor rather than just tweaks or countless special editions I fear they will becomes like the pyramids: beautiful, looked at with some awe, but consigned to history.
I like that! yeti said:
I think you can probably guess why this is back to life... The long-awaited F-Type.
Is it going to steal sales from the Vantage? Top of the range has an 8 speed auto, 495bhp, strict 2 seats, and is 80 grand plus toys. And the V6 with 340bhp is less than 60 grand for a thoroughly modern motor car, I very much doubt a second hand Vantage would comprehensively outrun it for the same money.
So the Vantage now has a cheaper rival in the F-Type and the DB9 has a MUCH cheaper rival in the XKR - which is has to be said, is long in the tooth now.
The DB9 has upped it's game with the most recent incarnation and actually isn't overpriced for what it is. Jag seem to have added every piece of bling they have to bump the XKR-S's price beyond 100k, rarified territory for Jaguar. I think the new DB9 is ahead of the XKR-S, even putting pricing to one side.
I don't think the Vantage is ahead of the F-Tyope though, not any more. When is the new Vantage due..? If it were my choice, I would have the Aston because I love Astons, but if you had no interest in either brand, I wonder how many will choose the F-Type? It's just so... new!
Comparing the XKR to the Vantage is hard as you effectively get a DB9-class car for Vantage money. But where does the F-Type fit in? It is, in it's top spec, on paper, better than the Vantage or the aging XKR.
And the raison d'etre of the this thread was always to try and ignore the perceived snob value that Aston has versus Jaguar. The question is still; do they build better cars now?
I think with the F type they've marketed it wrong. They've sold it as if it's some purist driver's car, yet weighs 1600kg for the base V6 model and has an 8 speed auto gearbox?! Some drivers car.... If it was an automated manual, paddleshift gearbox and about 1400kgs they might have been onto something, as it is, I don't see it as a massive competitor to Aston. Plus they will be 10 a penny compared to Astons... Is it going to steal sales from the Vantage? Top of the range has an 8 speed auto, 495bhp, strict 2 seats, and is 80 grand plus toys. And the V6 with 340bhp is less than 60 grand for a thoroughly modern motor car, I very much doubt a second hand Vantage would comprehensively outrun it for the same money.
So the Vantage now has a cheaper rival in the F-Type and the DB9 has a MUCH cheaper rival in the XKR - which is has to be said, is long in the tooth now.
The DB9 has upped it's game with the most recent incarnation and actually isn't overpriced for what it is. Jag seem to have added every piece of bling they have to bump the XKR-S's price beyond 100k, rarified territory for Jaguar. I think the new DB9 is ahead of the XKR-S, even putting pricing to one side.
I don't think the Vantage is ahead of the F-Tyope though, not any more. When is the new Vantage due..? If it were my choice, I would have the Aston because I love Astons, but if you had no interest in either brand, I wonder how many will choose the F-Type? It's just so... new!
Comparing the XKR to the Vantage is hard as you effectively get a DB9-class car for Vantage money. But where does the F-Type fit in? It is, in it's top spec, on paper, better than the Vantage or the aging XKR.
And the raison d'etre of the this thread was always to try and ignore the perceived snob value that Aston has versus Jaguar. The question is still; do they build better cars now?
Not to mention the front of the Jag looks horrendous... looks like a Ferrari California
The back is quite nice (on the top end models, I hate centre exhausts on the lower spec ones).craigjm said:
Aston need their own TATA but who??????
Step forward Toyota?
God I hope not Toyota... what engine other than the V10 in the ridiculously priced LF-A are they going to use? Even that sounds horrible, despite being very technologically advanced. Mercedes would be a much better investor... AMG engines in AMs, almost a dream combination for me.Step forward Toyota?
Lunablack said:
If Mercedes became involved in Aston I'll sell mine, and get a TR5....
I think I'll sell mine if Toyota get involved. At least Merc make more interesting cars and fantastic engines.Although I'm seriously pissed off at my local Merc dealer at the moment.... went in the other day to ask if they had any R171 SLK55 AMGs in stock and the salesman who I dealt with was extremely rude and basically implied I couldn't afford one... I'm going to turn up in the DB9 next weekend and tell him how much of a prick he is and how he's lost a sale
Neilc123 said:
As someone who has driven both as well I do find the comment that it is not an Aston as remarkable. It is basically saying to me that the brand is more important than the substance and I fear Aston are counting on that at the moment. I fear if people actually used their brains more than their heart fewer Astons would be sold as comparing the cars I think the Jaguar is the better engineered car. However, it could be argued that it should be considering the R&D costs of Jaguar compared to Aston.
The worry that I have for Aston is that the modern world does not really lend itself to a small car manufacturer anymore, the world is getting global, costs are getting higher and european laws are getting more and more complex. SO I guess the implication behind the OP's question is: IS Aston on the way out, has it evolved enough to keep it going as a serious car manufacturer or is there a potential for it to be another TVR - loved by enthusiasts however with the potential to become dinosaurs.
In my view, unless Aston produces something different with the WOW factor rather than just tweaks or countless special editions I fear they will becomes like the pyramids: beautiful, looked at with some awe, but consigned to history.
As someone who has owned and driven many Jags over the years I would hands down choose an Aston. And if AM becomes like the pyramids then that is the best analogy that could have been drawn. As we know, the pyramids represented the state of the art in construction when they were built, they are still standing when countless more modern and better engineered buildings have fallen by the wayside and people flock to see them and marvel at their simplicity and beauty. The worry that I have for Aston is that the modern world does not really lend itself to a small car manufacturer anymore, the world is getting global, costs are getting higher and european laws are getting more and more complex. SO I guess the implication behind the OP's question is: IS Aston on the way out, has it evolved enough to keep it going as a serious car manufacturer or is there a potential for it to be another TVR - loved by enthusiasts however with the potential to become dinosaurs.
In my view, unless Aston produces something different with the WOW factor rather than just tweaks or countless special editions I fear they will becomes like the pyramids: beautiful, looked at with some awe, but consigned to history.
Long may Aston be compared to pyramids and well done to you for drawing the analogy for us
Lunablack said:
That'll show him
Has he met you before by any chance
.....
No, never seen him there before. Not been in a while, but the manager there is a very nice bloke. Let me test the SLS and SLS roadster because my dad had bought a lot of cars off him before he moved abroad. Plus I was wearing a watch that was probably worth 80% of an SLK55... so fool on him for not noticing... I was always told a good car dealer judges people off their watch and shoes, not their appearance (I was wearing fairly scruffy clothes). Has he met you before by any chance
.....Edited by Lunablack on Sunday 7th October 21:59
I just want to rub in the fact that he will have lost commission in... if he wasn't such a knob then I wouldn't do. If I do get an SLK55 (when I find somewhere that lets me test one), then I'll definitely go back again just to rub it in. I always bear grudges with s
t car dealers 
craigjm said:
Jaguar have come a long way in the last 4 years or so and the investment from TATA is showing with cars like the XF, XJ and soon to be released F-type showing the fruits of that investment. The XK is a bit further behind because of when it was released. Look at the price point of the F-type though and its obvious that the next XK will move upmarket to go more head to head with Aston and others. In that same time investment at Aston has been less than comparable and whilst being beautiful cars and driving and handling well that lack of investment is starting to show. At present I wouldnt say that Jag are ahead of Aston but a couple more years of the Indian money and the new XK vs the continuing situation at Aston may reverse that. The market is limited for v12 cars now and key competitors like Bentley have started to offer other more frugal options and reduced emissions etc. and Aston need to do the same.
Agree with this.Jaguar have a solid history to tap into where sports cars are concerned. Just needs some great product to underscore this. They need to be appealing to people further down the age range. Once they do, Aston need to be very wary. The F-type might be the car to get the ball rolling.
Meanwhile, what news from Aston? A re-badged Virage. Which was a re-badged and tweaked DB9. Vanquish II (not seen one up close - front end didn't make me want to. Interior looked a bit disjointed in photos). A Rapide that won't sell. A Vantage that wasn't ahead of the competition when it was released. 7yrs ago. And the Cygnet.
George H said:
God I hope not Toyota... what engine other than the V10 in the ridiculously priced LF-A are they going to use? Even that sounds horrible, despite being very technologically advanced. Mercedes would be a much better investor... AMG engines in AMs, almost a dream combination for me.
Who said anything about an engine? what TATA engine is in any of the current Jaguars? MONEY is what will save Aston from becoming an irrelevance, something that Toyota has a lot of. Look at what TATA has done to Jaguar since 2008, imagine the same leap forward for Aston....craigjm said:
Who said anything about an engine? what TATA engine is in any of the current Jaguars? MONEY is what will save Aston from becoming an irrelevance, something that Toyota has a lot of. Look at what TATA has done to Jaguar since 2008, imagine the same leap forward for Aston....
So they will just become mass produced like the Jag? With more and more models being added so the brand gets cheapened? I'd rather they just bought engine technology from AMG and spent the rest on R+D of current models. Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff