Aston Vs Jag - are we slipping back?
Discussion
blueg33 said:
Mate of mine has an XKRS and a 2011 DB9
In his opinion the XKRS whips the DB9 as a driving machine but the quality isn't quite there.
Which car does he always drive - XKRS in his words "The Aston is too boring"
Interesting points and kind of what I was wondering. How a Jag with a supercharger can be more exciting to drive than a DB9 with adaptive damping. I suppose it's a lot more powerful if nothing else, much more so than the DBS in fact! In his opinion the XKRS whips the DB9 as a driving machine but the quality isn't quite there.
Which car does he always drive - XKRS in his words "The Aston is too boring"
Just one question - if he finds the DB9 sooooo boring, why does he keep £100k sat in his garage going mouldy?
quench said:
The V8V was the most difficult car to drive smoothly that I have ever owned. At times, this was part of the charm, but at other times it was annoying. It had the sports suspension, and IMO it was a poor setup. The car rode too harshly, yet rolled too much, and had a disturbing disconnect between the front and rear. H&R springs helped, but did not solve the situation. The manual transmission was challenging, to put it kindly. I liked the steering and found the pedal effort required during braking a refreshing change from most over-servoed systems. The throttle response was just awful - lazy, lazy, lazy. The car certainly felt more sporting than the XFR, largely due to the harsh ride and heavier controls. But it wouldn't have seen which way the XFR went on most roads. Conversely, its capability on track was a pleasant surprise (there, the tables were decidedly turned on the XFR).
I'd agree on standard 4.7 driven hard. SP car does improve it but the S nails it.I also drove the XFR at the launch and that thing is an amazing car! Great daily drive!
Aston have a big problem: lack of cash for R&D. JLR spent more then £1bn on R&D on their two brands. This doesnt include the recent announcements of the new engine plant, now the investmenrt in 1,500 new employees in Halewood, or the others at gaydon
In 2010, Aston spent (in total) just £15m On R&D. Coincidentally (or worryingly), autosport quoted a while back that the Aston Martin racing budget for the AMR-One was "about half the size of its major rivals at £15m". In other words, they spend the same on a racing car as they did on development for the road cars
With the exception of two cars: the Cygnet and the One-77, the range is based on a palgtfiorm (the VH) which was developed in the early 00's and first saw the light of day in 2003. In automotive terms, its a very old design. Although capable, the industry moves very quickly these days.
They have got the cash to develop the next geenration, due in 2015/16, but until then they need to keep using the platform they have- revised later this year to comply with the new US pedestrian safety rules.
In 2010, Aston spent (in total) just £15m On R&D. Coincidentally (or worryingly), autosport quoted a while back that the Aston Martin racing budget for the AMR-One was "about half the size of its major rivals at £15m". In other words, they spend the same on a racing car as they did on development for the road cars
With the exception of two cars: the Cygnet and the One-77, the range is based on a palgtfiorm (the VH) which was developed in the early 00's and first saw the light of day in 2003. In automotive terms, its a very old design. Although capable, the industry moves very quickly these days.
They have got the cash to develop the next geenration, due in 2015/16, but until then they need to keep using the platform they have- revised later this year to comply with the new US pedestrian safety rules.
Well I like mine, it does everything I want, feels more than quick enough and handles better than I can get the best out of either on track or on the road
ive "only" got an early 4.3 Vantage that Ive owned from 9 months old...you know the one that people say is "disapointing" and "slow"
but I dont care, because I really enjoy driving it, looking at it, listening to it, talking about it, tinkering with it, and even cleaning it (from time to time)
generally though I really like going places in it
I dont care what it says in a magazine or what racing drivers think of it, because Im old enough to make my own mind up ...
Jags will always be Jags..and Porsche are Porsche....I do like them too, in fact I like most cars in different ways...I like riding bikes too...in fact pretty much anything with an engine in it is fun
to be honest if I really like something, I dont really care what other people think, I get what I want
I guess that about sums it up for me
ive "only" got an early 4.3 Vantage that Ive owned from 9 months old...you know the one that people say is "disapointing" and "slow"
but I dont care, because I really enjoy driving it, looking at it, listening to it, talking about it, tinkering with it, and even cleaning it (from time to time)
generally though I really like going places in it
I dont care what it says in a magazine or what racing drivers think of it, because Im old enough to make my own mind up ...
Jags will always be Jags..and Porsche are Porsche....I do like them too, in fact I like most cars in different ways...I like riding bikes too...in fact pretty much anything with an engine in it is fun
to be honest if I really like something, I dont really care what other people think, I get what I want
I guess that about sums it up for me
yeti said:
blueg33 said:
Mate of mine has an XKRS and a 2011 DB9
In his opinion the XKRS whips the DB9 as a driving machine but the quality isn't quite there.
Which car does he always drive - XKRS in his words "The Aston is too boring"
Interesting points and kind of what I was wondering. How a Jag with a supercharger can be more exciting to drive than a DB9 with adaptive damping. I suppose it's a lot more powerful if nothing else, much more so than the DBS in fact! In his opinion the XKRS whips the DB9 as a driving machine but the quality isn't quite there.
Which car does he always drive - XKRS in his words "The Aston is too boring"
Just one question - if he finds the DB9 sooooo boring, why does he keep £100k sat in his garage going mouldy?
I don't think that £100k is that important to him TBH
Take the XKRS - oh, pulleeease - go drive one and see for yourself - it's a mad thing that spends most of it's time going all squirrely and has a cabin full of bling and ill-thought out features!!
PS If you want to see what I was comparing it to see http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
PS If you want to see what I was comparing it to see http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
yeti said:
Without naming names... Err, yes
As said, I don't believe he has an axe to grind, I'm genuinely curious as to the source of the comments.
As also mentioned above, I don't drive at 10/10ths and would be backwards in the hedge if I tried to, a modified DB9 is all I need. I couldn't exploit any more from a car. Randy can!
Ah ok! Yes, Randy is a well respected race driver and engineer so any opinions are worthy of serious consideration.As said, I don't believe he has an axe to grind, I'm genuinely curious as to the source of the comments.
As also mentioned above, I don't drive at 10/10ths and would be backwards in the hedge if I tried to, a modified DB9 is all I need. I couldn't exploit any more from a car. Randy can!
To declare an interest, we've acted as Technical Partner to some of their successful racing endeavours.
yeti said:
Interesting points and kind of what I was wondering. How a Jag with a supercharger can be more exciting to drive than a DB9 with adaptive damping.
That supercharged engine is an amazing powerplant - smooth, linear delivery with a nice top end surge, gobs of torque, refined when cruising and vocal when opening the taps. That said, I would think the V12 in the DB9 feels and sounds even more special, never mind it is not as powerful.MollyGT said:
Take the XKRS - oh, pulleeease - go drive one and see for yourself - it's a mad thing that spends most of it's time going all squirrely and has a cabin full of bling and ill-thought out features!!
Not that the (post Sarah Maynard) Aston cabin could ever be called bling or impractical... ;-)TDIPLC said:
Ah ok! Yes, Randy is a well respected race driver and engineer so any opinions are worthy of serious consideration.
Indeed. I just wondered why he thought Astons were rubbish. Not slightly less good than the competition, but 'rubbish'.I guess you get to be a certain level of driving ability and maybe they don't quite stack up anymore? That was my question, are the Jags then that much better?
Molly, what was the Evo consensus after back-to-back testing?
I have driven an XKRS 2 days ago. I was amongst some very quick drivers. The engine is a monster which totally overwhelms the car, my opinion was echoed by the others. I could keep it in sight on an A road in the S just! On the Evo triangle due to the immense skill of the driver he sort of cleared off. The interior is Bling gone mad. Shiney bits lurk everywhere topped off with carbon fibre looking leather, not nice at all. This particular example was painted in what I called Woolworth's blue! red calipers and bling wheels.
Slipping back? I don't think so.
However I would say come on Aston " bolt on a turbo"
Slipping back? I don't think so.
However I would say come on Aston " bolt on a turbo"
Only last week I drove my V8VR and my friend's XK back to back. Personally, I think it depends what you want out of a car - I'm no racing driver and both cars are fairly comparable on paper, so for me it's about the overall driving experience. The Jag is very comfortable and easy to drive - it's smooth, precise and the power is very accessible. The Vantage feels more 'raw', more like a sports car, you need to work it harder and it's less forgiving.
I think they're both great cars, but in my opinion the Vantage and XK are very different cars. The Jag feels more like a GT and the Vantage like a racer. For long journeys, I'd take the Jag every time. For Sunday morning blasts through the country lanes, you can't beat the low-slung, engaging feel of the Aston, not to mention the incredible noise.
Oh, and I know we're ignoring the whole "image" angle here, but there's no denying that the look of the Aston and the appreciation it receives from the general public is something quite special indeed!
I think they're both great cars, but in my opinion the Vantage and XK are very different cars. The Jag feels more like a GT and the Vantage like a racer. For long journeys, I'd take the Jag every time. For Sunday morning blasts through the country lanes, you can't beat the low-slung, engaging feel of the Aston, not to mention the incredible noise.
Oh, and I know we're ignoring the whole "image" angle here, but there's no denying that the look of the Aston and the appreciation it receives from the general public is something quite special indeed!
Edited by rib27 on Sunday 5th February 00:47
yeti said:
Indeed. I just wondered why he thought Astons were rubbish. Not slightly less good than the competition, but 'rubbish'.
I guess you get to be a certain level of driving ability and maybe they don't quite stack up anymore? That was my question, are the Jags then that much better?
That does seem to be quite a harsh judgement! Any idea what the context was? Was he talking about the driving dynamics, overall experience, build quality etc?I guess you get to be a certain level of driving ability and maybe they don't quite stack up anymore? That was my question, are the Jags then that much better?
yeti said:
Indeed. I just wondered why he thought Astons were rubbish. Not slightly less good than the competition, but 'rubbish'.
Yeti, it's hardly likely that a professional racer, who appears to attract divine status, would use the word 'rubbish' about Astons unless the word is being taken completely out of context. Somebody of that status I would imagine has a wider vocabulary and has access to more refined adjectives or adverbs.I would really need to see the article before I passed comment on the professionalism involved in saying such a thing
Interesting question. Whilst I don't think there's a huge gap at the moment I fear there will be when the X-C16 hits the market around the the end of this year. If Jaguar fulfill their promises it will be an amazing car. A quick comparison of a few stats shows how far the Vantage will be left behind.
X-C16 V8V
Power (bhp) 380+95 420
0-62 (s) 4.4 4.7
Top speed (mph) 186 (limited) 180
Fuel consumption (mpg) 41 20
CO2 emissions (g/km) 165 328
Weight (kg). 1600 1630
Looks are down to personal taste but the general concensous of opinion has been that the X-C16 looks fantastic so is also competing with Astons main strength.
I love my V8V but I was so impressed with the looks and spec sheet of this new Jag that I've put a non-binding deposit down on one. Be interesting to see whether it fulfils all the promises.
X-C16 V8V
Power (bhp) 380+95 420
0-62 (s) 4.4 4.7
Top speed (mph) 186 (limited) 180
Fuel consumption (mpg) 41 20
CO2 emissions (g/km) 165 328
Weight (kg). 1600 1630
Looks are down to personal taste but the general concensous of opinion has been that the X-C16 looks fantastic so is also competing with Astons main strength.
I love my V8V but I was so impressed with the looks and spec sheet of this new Jag that I've put a non-binding deposit down on one. Be interesting to see whether it fulfils all the promises.
X-C16 is indeed a good looking car - there are also a lot of good looking other jags. Nowt wrong with jags.
The only figures of interest to me on the above list are co2 and mpg - I would not notice the others at all.
Having said that, I think Yeti's gripe is in the use of the word 'rubbish' against Astons
The only figures of interest to me on the above list are co2 and mpg - I would not notice the others at all.
Having said that, I think Yeti's gripe is in the use of the word 'rubbish' against Astons
Jockman said:
Yeti, it's hardly likely that a professional racer, who appears to attract divine status, would use the word 'rubbish' about Astons unless the word is being taken completely out of context. Somebody of that status I would imagine has a wider vocabulary and has access to more refined adjectives or adverbs.
I would really need to see the article before I passed comment on the professionalism involved in saying such a thing
Morning my deep fried chum, it wasn't an article, just a post on the Lotus forum we're both members of. He was actually talking about the Evora and why it doesn't sell. As per my first post, he made comments on the other cars in his garage. Aston got one word, 'rubbish'. No further clarification. On another thread talking about the new shape but older 4.2 XKR Vs DB7 Vantage he made the comment that DB7s are flaky (they are) and the DB9 was better but still light years bhind the Jaguar. That was what surprised me - that a guy with no axe to grind rated modern Astons so poorly, especially against their traditional 'budget' rival. I suppose that rivalry goes all the way back to the E-Type Vs the DB5, and back into racing with the D-Types and DBR cars. Hard to beat a Jaguar for the money and their heritage is beyond reproach.I would really need to see the article before I passed comment on the professionalism involved in saying such a thing
I suppose it's like putting the 911 GT3RS against the Nissan GTR. The Nissan destroys it in every scientifically measurable way for far less money, but what would you rather have..? For me, it's the 911, for many others the GTR represents too good a car to ignore.
I hope Astons are not becoming a joke, an anachronism like they were in the Virage V8 days (I love Virages BTW and even namwd my company after it!)
I think its just a dismissive comment based on an opinion to get a reaction from a load of car geeks on a forum
the statement that "Astons are rubbish" doesnt really hold up much in any context
rubbish for shopping? rubbish for track driving? rubbish for going on holiday in ?
rubbish ...mmm...in the snow perhaps ?
the statement that "Astons are rubbish" doesnt really hold up much in any context
rubbish for shopping? rubbish for track driving? rubbish for going on holiday in ?
rubbish ...mmm...in the snow perhaps ?
Every marque seems to provoke illogical hatred in some individuals. Aston is no exception. You often hear the ridiculous claim that they are hopelessly unreliable, slow, handle poorly, have a poor finish etc. Occasionally, you will even hear it from somebody who could afford one. It's just the way of things.
bogie said:
the statement that "Astons are rubbish" doesnt really hold up much in any context
rubbish for shopping? rubbish for track driving? rubbish for going on holiday in ?
rubbish ...mmm...in the snow perhaps ?
You might have read the thread Mark! He was syaing what he'd jump in for a quick, enjoyable blast for the sake of it. That he might choose the Evora makes sense, it serves no purpose other than to be that old cliche, 'the driver's car'; it was preferring the Jag over Aston thing that surprised me.rubbish for shopping? rubbish for track driving? rubbish for going on holiday in ?
rubbish ...mmm...in the snow perhaps ?
I think Aston's are every inch the driver's car but then I have converted mine into something more akin to that. I remember thinking it was too quiet and too smooth when I bought it. Maybe that's it.
Zod said:
Every marque seems to provoke illogical hatred in some individuals...
Absolutely agree Zod....yet, this isn't just any individual. A pro of this stature is not permitted to espouse illogical hatred (not that I think he is really).You would expect a comment like that from Clarkson. He is paid to be silly but entertaining.
Perhaps this was the rationale behind this comment
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