Discussion
Greg_D said:
Many apologies - I wasn't clear enough and my language was lazy.
The engine isn't simply the block, it is the complete long engine, so all 'the metal bits' are there, turbos, heads, rotating assembly etc.
It is shipped ready to drop into the car. but that's it, the electronics are pure AM from the ground up.
My source is a current employee at AM in the relevant department
The engine isn't simply the block, it is the complete long engine, so all 'the metal bits' are there, turbos, heads, rotating assembly etc.
It is shipped ready to drop into the car. but that's it, the electronics are pure AM from the ground up.
My source is a current employee at AM in the relevant department
No need for your apology Greg.
We knew, so please excuse my jest. The subject was described fairly extensively by AML, at the time of the DB11 V8 launch.
Aston Martin also took time developing the exhaust systems, to obtain a higher note than we associate with the current MB sporty cars. Maybe a shame that there has to be a noticeable difference between N/A and present day turbo cars, but the physics dictates most of that.
Your Vantage has my favourite colour. Looks great and a wonderful photo at Newport Pagnell.
Enjoy your car.
Jon39 said:
RL17 said:
Is Cologne a dedicated contract for Ford to build engines, or AML undertaking ?
Yes, the contract is with Ford, although the portion of premises used at the Ford plant, is called Aston Martin Engine Plant.
The V8 built in Cologne has of course finished (what happens regarding replacement engines, I don't know), but the long running V12 contract has an end date, although that has already been extended, possibly more than once.
I have not heard about changes at the Bridgenorth foundry firm. Hopefully not a sad tale ?
To Venturist.
Yes I knew, but tried politely to reveal it slowly.
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 27th November 14:25
Original story re 5.2 engine
https://www.shropshirestar.com/business/shropshire...
TL;DR - Didn't like the new vantage when it came out, still think the front end looks odd, ended up buying one last week.
Long version...
Interesting reading the last few pages through. I used to work at Gaydon, when the 'old' vantage was still being produced and was lucky enough to work on the GT8 and Vanquish Zagato, so the legacy cars really got under my skin. I owned a 2007 4.3 vantage a few years ago, however as it never seemed to work properly I got sick of chucking money at it and swapped it for a much newer F type.
When the new vantage was released (about a year after I left AML) my heart sank a bit. I'd seen early versions and CAD renders but had always hoped the front end would be 'sorted' before the production spec cars. I also didn't like the sound of the very early cars I'd heard, which thankfully they've since fixed, however I remember just thinking it was a real shame that this was the new car. I didn't really give them any more thought, still happy with the F type, until through an old mate of mine at the factory I found out about the crazy finance deals they're currently doing to shift stock cars.
I ended up buying a brand new one in Elwood blue, with the black pack and forged wheels. I think the back end looks amazing, but I'm still not convinced on the front. I also would have preferred a red one, but beggars after cheap stock cars can't be choosers. I've now spent a weekend in it and can honestly say it's worlds apart from the old vantage. It cruises like an expensive luxury car should, it has stuff like keyless entry and fantastic 360 cameras, loads of interior space for a relatively small car and it's properly savagely fast. Gone is the horrible sports shift 'box (yes even the III, I spent plenty of time in them!) worrying about clutch wear in the manual, trying to explain the fly off handbrake to people...I can't really fault the car yet. The quality so far is also really good and I've yet to find anything of concern. I could honestly stick my girlfriend in it and she'd be absolutely fine driving it anywhere, or choose to daily drive it everywhere myself - I can't really say the same about my old manual.
I took it down to the Cotswolds for our first weekend together and came back absolutely in love with it. I still honestly prefer the way my F type looks overall - IMO a perfect piece of design, but the Vantage is far more special. I deliberately went with the bright blue as I think bright colours suit it better - it's a more aggressive shouty design so I didn't fancy a subdued grey/black. I'm amazed at the amount of attention it's had so far, pretty much everyone stops and stares. I was at caffeine and machine with it this morning, where everyone was commenting on the colour and how great it looked.
I do think it could be a great looking car, it needs more detailing on the bonnet to break up the big flat expanse of panel, perhaps some larger central vents rather than out to the side, larger headlights and a different grille design. I'd love to see a facelifted version that addresses at least some of this, it's a shame it seems to have put so many people off what is truly an amazing car.
Long version...
Interesting reading the last few pages through. I used to work at Gaydon, when the 'old' vantage was still being produced and was lucky enough to work on the GT8 and Vanquish Zagato, so the legacy cars really got under my skin. I owned a 2007 4.3 vantage a few years ago, however as it never seemed to work properly I got sick of chucking money at it and swapped it for a much newer F type.
When the new vantage was released (about a year after I left AML) my heart sank a bit. I'd seen early versions and CAD renders but had always hoped the front end would be 'sorted' before the production spec cars. I also didn't like the sound of the very early cars I'd heard, which thankfully they've since fixed, however I remember just thinking it was a real shame that this was the new car. I didn't really give them any more thought, still happy with the F type, until through an old mate of mine at the factory I found out about the crazy finance deals they're currently doing to shift stock cars.
I ended up buying a brand new one in Elwood blue, with the black pack and forged wheels. I think the back end looks amazing, but I'm still not convinced on the front. I also would have preferred a red one, but beggars after cheap stock cars can't be choosers. I've now spent a weekend in it and can honestly say it's worlds apart from the old vantage. It cruises like an expensive luxury car should, it has stuff like keyless entry and fantastic 360 cameras, loads of interior space for a relatively small car and it's properly savagely fast. Gone is the horrible sports shift 'box (yes even the III, I spent plenty of time in them!) worrying about clutch wear in the manual, trying to explain the fly off handbrake to people...I can't really fault the car yet. The quality so far is also really good and I've yet to find anything of concern. I could honestly stick my girlfriend in it and she'd be absolutely fine driving it anywhere, or choose to daily drive it everywhere myself - I can't really say the same about my old manual.
I took it down to the Cotswolds for our first weekend together and came back absolutely in love with it. I still honestly prefer the way my F type looks overall - IMO a perfect piece of design, but the Vantage is far more special. I deliberately went with the bright blue as I think bright colours suit it better - it's a more aggressive shouty design so I didn't fancy a subdued grey/black. I'm amazed at the amount of attention it's had so far, pretty much everyone stops and stares. I was at caffeine and machine with it this morning, where everyone was commenting on the colour and how great it looked.
I do think it could be a great looking car, it needs more detailing on the bonnet to break up the big flat expanse of panel, perhaps some larger central vents rather than out to the side, larger headlights and a different grille design. I'd love to see a facelifted version that addresses at least some of this, it's a shame it seems to have put so many people off what is truly an amazing car.
[quote=Shrimpvende
I do think it could be a great looking car, it needs more detailing on the bonnet to break up the big flat expanse of panel, perhaps some larger central vents rather than out to the side, larger headlights and a different grille design. I'd love to see a facelifted version that addresses at least some of this, it's a shame it seems to have put so many people off what is truly an amazing car.
[/quote]
With your experience working there and knowing how the company operates. In your opinion do you believe AM will ever face lift the Vantage to give more appeal, or do you feel their heels are dug in so to speak.
I just have the belief that AP will never budge, and the design will remain the same until if and when the next Vantage cycle happens. Regardless of public reception.
I do think it could be a great looking car, it needs more detailing on the bonnet to break up the big flat expanse of panel, perhaps some larger central vents rather than out to the side, larger headlights and a different grille design. I'd love to see a facelifted version that addresses at least some of this, it's a shame it seems to have put so many people off what is truly an amazing car.
[/quote]
With your experience working there and knowing how the company operates. In your opinion do you believe AM will ever face lift the Vantage to give more appeal, or do you feel their heels are dug in so to speak.
I just have the belief that AP will never budge, and the design will remain the same until if and when the next Vantage cycle happens. Regardless of public reception.
AstonV said:
With your experience working there and knowing how the company operates. In your opinion do you believe AM will ever face lift the Vantage to give more appeal, or do you feel their heels are dug in so to speak.
I just have the belief that AP will never budge, and the design will remain the same until if and when the next Vantage cycle happens. Regardless of public reception.
I just have the belief that AP will never budge, and the design will remain the same until if and when the next Vantage cycle happens. Regardless of public reception.
The pricing scheme £1,000 deposit and 24 x £1,000 monthly, certainly appears to have sold many new £140,000 Vantages, but on that basis longer-term, do you think the Company can even be making any profit on this model ? If that is the reality, why 'dig heels in' ?
We remember the old Aston Martin quotation, "Can I buy one at cost?", "Yes certainly, that will be 10% extra."
Jon39 said:
AstonV said:
With your experience working there and knowing how the company operates. In your opinion do you believe AM will ever face lift the Vantage to give more appeal, or do you feel their heels are dug in so to speak.
I just have the belief that AP will never budge, and the design will remain the same until if and when the next Vantage cycle happens. Regardless of public reception.
I just have the belief that AP will never budge, and the design will remain the same until if and when the next Vantage cycle happens. Regardless of public reception.
The pricing scheme £1,000 deposit and 24 x £1,000 monthly, certainly appears to have sold many new £140,000 Vantages, but on that basis longer-term, do you think the Company can even be making any profit on this model ? If that is the reality, why 'dig heels in' ?
We remember the old Aston Martin quotation, "Can I buy one at cost?", "Yes certainly, that will be 10% extra."
Right now, AM need to be doing everything right given the turbulent year they've had and the poor sales. I don't have a clue what the real figures are as I've been out the game for a while, but the fact they're giving them away for £1k a month tells me things can't be good! I think within reason they'll do what they can to try and improve this, especially if they have enough evidence to suggest that a different front end would unlock loads more sales.
As for the deal, I don't know if it's AM or the dealers taking the hit. Probably both. I'm not fully disclosing the deal I got, but the invoice price of the car was a very significant discount vs the list price, with a high GFV. My best guess is judging by current used (retail) prices my car could be worth up to £20k less than my GFV at trade price in 2 years, so someone's going to have to fund that gap. I can't imagine it's going to be the finance company!
I also don't have a clue what the cost price of the cars is. It would depend how they really amortise the massive R&D costs, and the costs of the St Athan/DBX project, as it's all got to be paid back one way or another. As with all car companies, options improve margin, however the current vantage deal effectively gives them away for free!
RobDown said:
Your write up feels pretty close to what I’m hearing from everyone that has tried the new Vantage (and compared with the old). Must resist a test-drive....
Thanks for your work on the GT8 btw. The owners love them! (Has another great get together this morning)
Cheers! I had a great time working on the programme and really loved the cars. The titanium exhaust was a must have, although I remember prolonged periods of standing outside in the cold with the decibel meter as we were trying to make sure they would pass all the required tests for certain regions! Absolute animal of a car and it felt really special to work on something that's sadly the last of a kind. I don't think we'll ever see an NA road car that makes that noise with that amount of OTT CF bodywork again, which is a real shame. Thanks for your work on the GT8 btw. The owners love them! (Has another great get together this morning)
As prices have softened I've been tempted to buy one, as it would also be massively sentimental. Perhaps when my Vantage deal expires if there's nothing similar to replace it with! It would be great to meet some owners in the future at events now I'm an owner again, as that's the side I never saw in my job there. As I lived and breathed the GT8's for months I'd probably recognise some of your cars, and it would be cool to share some anecdotes.
Shrimpvende said:
AM are really really good at taking customer feedback on board, ....
Not always, and such a shame because in this instance it might be costly.
At the St. Athan AMOC Spring Concours on Sunday 9 April 2017, when one of the Aston Martin designers revealed sketches of the proposed new Vantage.
" If that front design is used on the production model, Aston Martin will have a problem. "
genuinely don't believe the looks of the new vantage are the issue. Most people outside these forums like the look. The biggest issue is the price of the car. It should have been priced alongside a carrera S, not a turbo/mclaren competitor. At 150k it is not fast enough, or dynamically excellent enough, or technically advance enough or luxurious enough (choose which one, as no car be all those). At 100k, it would certainly steal a lot of sales from the boring 992 and mercedes amg gt lot. Especially now given the manual gearbox.
cypriot said:
genuinely don't believe the looks of the new vantage are the issue. Most people outside these forums like the look. The biggest issue is the price of the car. It should have been priced alongside a carrera S, not a turbo/mclaren competitor. At 150k it is not fast enough, or dynamically excellent enough, or technically advance enough or luxurious enough (choose which one, as no car be all those). At 100k, it would certainly steal a lot of sales from the boring 992 and mercedes amg gt lot. Especially now given the manual gearbox.
100% this also. I do wonder if the current 'deal' or something similar will be the new default pricing for them. A little like BMW's large coupe's, where the list price is all but artificialcypriot said:
genuinely don't believe the looks of the new vantage are the issue. Most people outside these forums like the look. The biggest issue is the price of the car. It should have been priced alongside a carrera S, not a turbo/mclaren competitor. At 150k it is not fast enough, or dynamically excellent enough, or technically advance enough or luxurious enough (choose which one, as no car be all those). At 100k, it would certainly steal a lot of sales from the boring 992 and mercedes amg gt lot. Especially now given the manual gearbox.
Agreed, with the caveat that it's the combo of price and Aston's known depreciation. Of course one of several reasons for the depreciation is the price being too high to start withI'd argue that DB11, DB11 AMR, DBS & Vantage are all priced about 20% above where they should be
Of course the other side of this is supply - the cars would stand a better chance of holding their value if the supply numbers were lower
As it is, imagine looking at used DBS prices below £180k, for an incredibly well received car, still pretty recently launched, whilst thinking about buying any new Aston. These are cars with nominal mileage. It would scare the living daylights out of me and I've already been bitten 3 times (4 including my current car) by huge depreciation losses
jonby said:
I'd argue that DB11, DB11 AMR, DBS & Vantage are all priced about 20% above where they should be
Of course the other side of this is supply - the cars would stand a better chance of holding their value if the supply numbers were lower
..... It would scare the living daylights out of me and I've already been bitten 3 times (4 including my current car) by huge depreciation losses
Of course the other side of this is supply - the cars would stand a better chance of holding their value if the supply numbers were lower
..... It would scare the living daylights out of me and I've already been bitten 3 times (4 including my current car) by huge depreciation losses
Of course reducing list prices by 20%, and cutting supply would play havoc with the Company finances, whilst they are trying to deal with their current circumstances. I heard part of a news item this afternoon, the gist of which was some report about the UK SUV popularity, making a mockery of reducing pollution, and AML have only just announced theirs.
I do understand your view though, that slower depreciation would certainly encourage trading up more. Do new Ferraris still enjoy low depreciation, or has the present general slowing sales climate affected their used values too ?
I know that you like having new cars Jonby. My system of car ownership is rather different and I have not had any realised motor car depreciation losses for over 20 years, including my Aston Martin.
YKnot said:
Evening all, lurking for a while and Just took advantage of this offer on the new Vantage ????
Looking forward to delivery, oh and Hello ??
Why not indeed! Looking forward to delivery, oh and Hello ??
As a lurker, you must know accompanying photos are mandatory with such remarks.
Well done for taking the plunge, there suddenly seems to be a lot of new Vantage owners popping up. This is a good thing!
jonby said:
Agreed, with the caveat that it's the combo of price and Aston's known depreciation. Of course one of several reasons for the depreciation is the price being too high to start with
I'd argue that DB11, DB11 AMR, DBS & Vantage are all priced about 20% above where they should be
Of course the other side of this is supply - the cars would stand a better chance of holding their value if the supply numbers were lower
As it is, imagine looking at used DBS prices below £180k, for an incredibly well received car, still pretty recently launched, whilst thinking about buying any new Aston. These are cars with nominal mileage. It would scare the living daylights out of me and I've already been bitten 3 times (4 including my current car) by huge depreciation losses
Depreciation and pushing more items from standard equipment to options doesn't go down well for repeat business and trading in DB9 or old Vantage for DB11 or new Vantage etc.I'd argue that DB11, DB11 AMR, DBS & Vantage are all priced about 20% above where they should be
Of course the other side of this is supply - the cars would stand a better chance of holding their value if the supply numbers were lower
As it is, imagine looking at used DBS prices below £180k, for an incredibly well received car, still pretty recently launched, whilst thinking about buying any new Aston. These are cars with nominal mileage. It would scare the living daylights out of me and I've already been bitten 3 times (4 including my current car) by huge depreciation losses
Do like the new Vantage, and it does attract new customers to AM - seems far more popular near me than AM engined DB11 (which also appears low on the ground on here - and most of those are launch models). Although the DB11 is an awful long way down the Roll Call list, not sure anyone ever deletes either after sales.
Assume at moment the floatation means sales numbers are all important and everything else geared up (and tooled and staffed up for previous projections). So harder to adapt under the spotlight too.
Shrimpvende said:
AM are really really good at taking customer feedback on board, and do change models behind the scenes to constantly improve them. We used to put loads of effort in to trying to iron out all the niggles we could, find ways to improve it etc, however the Gaydon team is a small one and a small sample size to boot. Just because a couple of hundred people on the driver list might think everything is fine, or the wider company thinks something looks great, doesn't always translate into customer opinion when thousands of the the cars get released into the wild. The legacy models received visual updates during their lifecycle, so I can't see why this one won't either. Even if the public reaction to the styling was overwhelmingly positive they would still be tweaking it and finding new options to offer to keep it fresh and relevant.
Right now, AM need to be doing everything right given the turbulent year they've had and the poor sales. I don't have a clue what the real figures are as I've been out the game for a while, but the fact they're giving them away for £1k a month tells me things can't be good! I think within reason they'll do what they can to try and improve this, especially if they have enough evidence to suggest that a different front end would unlock loads more sales.
As for the deal, I don't know if it's AM or the dealers taking the hit. Probably both. I'm not fully disclosing the deal I got, but the invoice price of the car was a very significant discount vs the list price, with a high GFV. My best guess is judging by current used (retail) prices my car could be worth up to £20k less than my GFV at trade price in 2 years, so someone's going to have to fund that gap. I can't imagine it's going to be the finance company!
I also don't have a clue what the cost price of the cars is. It would depend how they really amortise the massive R&D costs, and the costs of the St Athan/DBX project, as it's all got to be paid back one way or another. As with all car companies, options improve margin, however the current vantage deal effectively gives them away for free!
Thank you, it's nice to hear your opinion. I really want to see the company do well. The profit margin on high end cars of all makes I believe is very high. When I purchased my 2015, I didn't even ask for a discount, I didn't realize they would even entertain one. They knocked off 15% right out of the gate, hindsight I could have asked for more, probably would have gotten it. They were doing everything they could to unload the older models.Right now, AM need to be doing everything right given the turbulent year they've had and the poor sales. I don't have a clue what the real figures are as I've been out the game for a while, but the fact they're giving them away for £1k a month tells me things can't be good! I think within reason they'll do what they can to try and improve this, especially if they have enough evidence to suggest that a different front end would unlock loads more sales.
As for the deal, I don't know if it's AM or the dealers taking the hit. Probably both. I'm not fully disclosing the deal I got, but the invoice price of the car was a very significant discount vs the list price, with a high GFV. My best guess is judging by current used (retail) prices my car could be worth up to £20k less than my GFV at trade price in 2 years, so someone's going to have to fund that gap. I can't imagine it's going to be the finance company!
I also don't have a clue what the cost price of the cars is. It would depend how they really amortise the massive R&D costs, and the costs of the St Athan/DBX project, as it's all got to be paid back one way or another. As with all car companies, options improve margin, however the current vantage deal effectively gives them away for free!
I haven't driven on the new model yet, just haven't to taken the time too. Since I am not in the market for one, I don't want to waste the dealers time.
You may have even helped build mine GT (I was told they didn't think Americans could relate to N430, thus the GT moniker). Ancient technology compared to the new one, but I don't care, gives the car character. Just love my car.
cypriot said:
genuinely don't believe the looks of the new vantage are the issue. Most people outside these forums like the look. The biggest issue is the price of the car. It should have been priced alongside a carrera S, not a turbo/mclaren competitor. At 150k it is not fast enough, or dynamically excellent enough, or technically advance enough or luxurious enough (choose which one, as no car be all those). At 100k, it would certainly steal a lot of sales from the boring 992 and mercedes amg gt lot. Especially now given the manual gearbox.
I disagree -- I think the looks are absolutely an issue, based on numerous conversations with potential buyers. Some love the looks, but very many do not. I also disagree with the notion that it should be priced like a Carrera S. The new Vantage (yes, I've driven it) is very fast and handles extremely well. An Aston, to me, has always been in the Ferrari/Maserati/Bentley tier (before Maserati went lower cost and higher volume). Astons generally have always been at a significantly higher price point than Porsche, and imo for good reason. They are hand-built, in much lower numbers, with a level of craftsmanship that is in a different league. An Aston doesn't need to be faster than a Porsche, for the same reasons that a Porsche doesn't need to be faster than a Corvette. But -- the Aston must look and feel like a more expensive, bespoke, special car. It needs to be worth that higher price. The "old" V8 Vantage, imo, looked and felt like a significantly more expensive car than the comparable 911, inside and out -- attention to detail, quality of materials (e.g., metal fittings vs plastic), etc. If the new Vantage doesn't, that needs to be addressed.Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff