New Vantage?

[V8V Pete]

Meanwhile, back in the world of cars ................

[Jon39]

Are you going to tell us the new Vantage has been launched, Pete?

RobDown said:

RL17 said:

Hopefully the market positioning and foreign recognition of AM brand(s) means that a future dip can be a lot less severe as Ferrrari global sales over those years mentioned held up remarkably well.

We saw Ferrari's experience repeated across the luxury good space in the financial crisis; it seems if you have enough money for LVMH stuff pre-crisis then you had enough money during the crisis; it was only those lower down the food chain hat suffered
Rob

I am puzzled Rob.

In 2007, I would have thought most people might have considered, a range of cars costing between £90,000 and £200,000 are luxury goods.
So if your theory is correct, why did sales drop by 47%, and a few Vantages were still for sale one year after they had been built?

[RobDown]

Exactly because they weren't positioned high enough Jon

I would love to have access to the demographic data for new Aston Martin buyers. But the average income for a Ferrari owner is I believe over USD1m. I'm guessing the former is somewhat lower

The same is true in luxury goods - the top end of the market (handbags etc) remained relatively unscathed. It was the middle ground that suffered.

It's just a theory as you say but maybe Part if the strategy for APs push to make AML a luxury brand first (and car manufacturer second), is designed to move more into Ferrari territory (Valkyrie anyone?)

[AMDBSVNick]

RobDown said:

Exactly because they weren't positioned high enough Jon

I would love to have access to the demographic data for new Aston Martin buyers. But the average income for a Ferrari owner is I believe over USD1m. I'm guessing the former is somewhat lower

The same is true in luxury goods - the top end of the market (handbags etc) remained relatively unscathed. It was the middle ground that suffered.

It's just a theory as you say but maybe Part if the strategy for APs push to make AML a luxury brand first (and car manufacturer second), is designed to move more into Ferrari territory (Valkyrie anyone?)

Exactly this. How many used Ferrari's can you buy for under £50k?

[Uncle Ron]

AMDBSVNick said:

RobDown said:

Exactly because they weren't positioned high enough Jon

I would love to have access to the demographic data for new Aston Martin buyers. But the average income for a Ferrari owner is I believe over USD1m. I'm guessing the former is somewhat lower

The same is true in luxury goods - the top end of the market (handbags etc) remained relatively unscathed. It was the middle ground that suffered.

It's just a theory as you say but maybe Part if the strategy for APs push to make AML a luxury brand first (and car manufacturer second), is designed to move more into Ferrari territory (Valkyrie anyone?)

Exactly this. How many used Ferrari's can you buy for under £50k?

I think there's also the fact that Ferrari launched the 458 and California in 2009 - the costs of developing both of those would have been incurred in 2005/6/7 largely. Aston's drop in sales came at a time when they desperately needed the cash to develop replacements for DB9 and Vantage - had the crash come two years later they may have got to market with something new sooner.

[hornbaek]

AMDBSVNick said:

Exactly this. How many used Ferrari's can you buy for under £50k?

They are called Maseratis

[AMDBSVNick]

hornbaek said:

AMDBSVNick said:

Exactly this. How many used Ferrari's can you buy for under £50k?

They are called Maseratis

[raceboy]

AMDBSVNick said:

Exactly this. How many used Ferrari's can you buy for under £50k?

If you don't mind sitting on the wrong side there's more than you might think.

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

[avinalarf]

Jon39 said:

I am puzzled Rob.

In 2007, I would have thought most people might have considered, a range of cars costing between £90,000 and £200,000 are luxury goods.
So if your theory is correct, why did sales drop by 47%, and a few Vantages were still for sale one year after they had been built?

I have been wondering how the rising prices of AM will affect their pre owned sales.
Thing is a lot of owners on this forum buy 3/5 years pre owned.
So one could buy say a 5 year old DB9 for £50K.
At the new price points of the DB11 a good 5 year old car will be what ?
Possibly £80k.
Nowadays wages are pretty static so a different scenario.
Keep in mind that many are weekend toys...so that's a lump of cash sitting in the garage.

Edited by avinalarf on Wednesday 18th October 13:53

[RL17]

Uncle Ron said:

I think there's also the fact that Ferrari launched the 458 and California in 2009 - the costs of developing both of those would have been incurred in 2005/6/7 largely. Aston's drop in sales came at a time when they desperately needed the cash to develop replacements for DB9 and Vantage - had the crash come two years later they may have got to market with something new sooner.

Surprising to see that in 2009 Ferrari sales (year of big AM fall & market segment fall of 35%) were 60% California and north america held up and Europe relatively well with middle east big increase and Asia Pacific surprisingly high. Shows power of different model streams (and variety) and non-traditional markets which have grown and continue to grow. And position in the sector/brand awareness.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268405/vehicle...

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/ferraris-2009-s...

So whens public launch date??

[Jon39]

avinalarf said:

Jon39 said:

I am puzzled Rob.

In 2007, I would have thought most people might have considered, a range of cars costing between £90,000 and £200,000 are luxury goods.
So if your theory is correct, why did sales drop by 47%, and a few Vantages were still for sale one year after they had been built?

I have been wondering how the rising prices of AM will affect their pre owned sales.
Thing is a lot of owners on this forum buy 3/5 years pre owned.
So one could buy say a 5 year old DB9 for £50K.
At the new price points of the DB11 a good 5 year old car will be what ?
Possibly £80k.
Nowadays wages are pretty static so a different scenario.
Keep in mind that many are weekend toys...so that's a lump of cash sitting in the garage.

( A late lunchtime for me today. )

As you have read Steven, my comments were about being fearful that the next economic downturn could result in a sudden drop in sales for AML (as happened in 2008), and how they would then cope with having a £500m debt.

Rob put forward the point, about AP appearing to be moving up market, to adopt the Ferrari business model and then the customers around the world would be so wealthy, that they continue buying ultra luxury sports cars during recessions.

I do admire Ferraris engineering, but it is not a car that I would want, so therefore know little about them. I just tried to see how much they cost. The starting point (probably before ticking options) seems to be £180,000.

Difficult at present to imagine, a future Vantage with a starting list price for UK buyers of £180,000 and the other models at higher prices. Almost double the current price levels. Perhaps Rob will be right, and Gaydon will be working flat out manufacturing the target 7,000 sports cars every year.

Can you see this, and are those new Aston Martin buyers amongst us, happy to order at considerably higher price levels?

Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 18th October 14:35

[Wayne95]

Jon39 said:

( A late lunchtime for me today. )

As you have read Steven, my comments were about being fearful that the next economic downturn could result in a sudden drop in sales for AML (as happened in 2008), and how they would then cope with having a £500m debt.

Rob put forward the point, about AP appearing to be moving up market, to adopt the Ferrari business model and then the customers around the world would be so wealthy, that they continue buying ultra luxury sports cars during recessions.

I do admire Ferraris engineering, but it is not a car that I would want, so therefore know little about them. I just tried to see how much they cost. The starting point (probably before ticking options) seems to be £180,000.

Difficult at present to imagine, a future Vantage with a starting list price for UK buyers of £180,000 and the other models at higher prices. Almost double the current price levels. Perhaps Rob will be right, and Gaydon will be working flat out manufacturing the target 7,000 sports cars every year.

Can you see this, and are those new Aston Martin buyers amongst us, happy to order at considerably higher price levels?

Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 18th October 14:35

How did Porsche fair during the same time. They have the 911 in the same price range as Vantage, but also lower price models. Aston seems to sit between Ferrari and Porsche , with Vantage at high end Porsche, but no lower price models, and the DB/Vanquish at the lower Ferrari end. A closer comparison in Mclaren price wise. There is also Bentley in that range, but with the big arm of VW around them ( yes I know Ferrari has Fiat)

Is the brand stretching too far, from 120k Vantage to 250k ( excluding the specials). Can it be Ferrari exclusive and still "accessible " at the lower end.

For me the Vantage is affordable ( just), but a its whole different market sector with starting prices 180k +.

[Nothingspecial]

Will be very interesting to revisit this conversation once the prices have been announced....
(With a different direction to the conversation obviously depending on whether they decrease, remain inflation-adjusted stable or increase as you've suggested)

[V8 Vantage GT]

Wayne95 said:

How did Porsche fair during the same time. They have the 911 in the same price range as Vantage, but also lower price models. Aston seems to sit between Ferrari and Porsche , with Vantage at high end Porsche, but no lower price models, and the DB/Vanquish at the lower Ferrari end. A closer comparison in Mclaren price wise. There is also Bentley in that range, but with the big arm of VW around them ( yes I know Ferrari has Fiat)

Is the brand stretching too far, from 120k Vantage to 250k ( excluding the specials). Can it be Ferrari exclusive and still "accessible " at the lower end.

For me the Vantage is affordable ( just), but a its whole different market sector with starting prices 180k +.

I agree. But it is sounding like AML wants to move the Vantage up market direct competition with the Huracan and Ferrari Portofino. There is nothing wrong with that. They will need to appeal to a whole new set of buyers. I don't know why, but Aston's don't seem to hold their value compared to these cars. Here in the states I see Aston's losing 30% out the door the and as much as 50% in the first few years before they start to level off. Don't know it this happens to Lamborghini and Ferrari?

[RL17]

Based on UK registered cars at 2016 Q4 the graph shows a big dip from highs of 2005 and 2006 to 2008 and 2009

997 launch from MY2005 also similar to Vantage launch with a couple of strong years before a drop off in 2007

Kinda supports Rob's theory


https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/porsche_911#!...

[kith]

Looks like a full-length brake light strip from this teaser

[Jon39]

kith said:

Looks like a full-length brake light strip from this teaser.

I do hope not.

It would hardly be understated, more like Las Vegas or Blackpool.

If this is so, they would not even be first. I have seen a few vehicles looking like Christmas trees, when the brakes are applied.

[AdamV12V]

Jon39 said:

kith said:

Looks like a full-length brake light strip from this teaser.

I do hope not.

It would hardly be understated, more like Las Vegas or Blackpool.

If this is so, they would not even be first. I have seen a few vehicles looking like Christmas trees, when the brakes are applied.

Like the One-77 you mean?

[AMDBSVNick]

AdamV12V said:

Like the One-77 you mean?

[Jon39]

Is there a point where good functional brake light design, changes to being ridiculous and gimmicky ?

How would you rate this example ?

Please take into account, you might be behind it at traffic lights on a wet night, whilst those brake lights remain constantly on.