V8 Twin turbo DB11

[GlynV8]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Americans awake now....

Who in their right mind would by a v8 DB11 to save a measly 8% over the v12 version? Forever and a day you will feel inadequate as a man when you happen to pull up against a DB11 with a 'real' Aston engine with 50% more cylinders.

Pass...

If you read the press release it says a lot of Chinese would as they have a tax system based on engine size. So being able to buy a 4.0l engine rather than a 5.2l one makes a big difference.
I think the weight and weight distribution are a factor too. Many journalists seem to prefer the V8 Bentley compared to the W12 as it is more agile and generally a more spirited drive. It could be similar with the DB11. I guess you will only know with a back to back drive. It is possible that the V8 will add something new and sit between the Vantage and the V12 DB11 nicely?

[anonymous-user]

GlynV8 said:

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Americans awake now....

Who in their right mind would by a v8 DB11 to save a measly 8% over the v12 version? Forever and a day you will feel inadequate as a man when you happen to pull up against a DB11 with a 'real' Aston engine with 50% more cylinders.

Pass...

If you read the press release it says a lot of Chinese would as they have a tax system based on engine size. So being able to buy a 4.0l engine rather than a 5.2l one makes a big difference.
I think the weight and weight distribution are a factor too. Many journalists seem to prefer the V8 Bentley compared to the W12 as it is more agile and generally a more spirited drive. It could be similar with the DB11. I guess you will only know with a back to back drive. It is possible that the V8 will add something new and sit between the Vantage and the V12 DB11 nicely?

+1, Ferrari did something similar with the GTC4 Lusso - the tax implications in China in particular open up possibilities for sales over there that at the moment aren't appealing for buyers (granted, we're talking a large amount of money for the purchase itself, but every little helps).

[RobDown]

To put some thoughts out on some of the above

1. I think this is aimed primarily at China. I know it's easy to think UK/US as this is a UK forum, but we only account for 20% of AML sales

2. Someone said V8 for the Vantage and v12 for the flagship DB11. Remember the DB11 is not the flagship, the Vanquish is (and shouldn't have a V8). The DB11 is the 'middle' car so it perhaps not unreasonable to have bothe engines

3. I'm going to be interested to see the reviews. I know we tend to ascribe here to the Clarkson "more power!" philosophy, but actually taking out a 115kg from the nose of the DB11 (at the expense of oomph), might be entertaining. I will wager many of the journos say it is the better car of the two.....

[HBradley]

GlynV8 said:

If you read the press release it says a lot of Chinese would as they have a tax system based on engine size. So being able to buy a 4.0l engine rather than a 5.2l one makes a big difference.
I think the weight and weight distribution are a factor too. Many journalists seem to prefer the V8 Bentley compared to the W12 as it is more agile and generally a more spirited drive. It could be similar with the DB11. I guess you will only know with a back to back drive. It is possible that the V8 will add something new and sit between the Vantage and the V12 DB11 nicely?

Indeed, the weight saving will have a significant positive impact on the agility of an already spritely car in the corners ..... but then I'm not sure our US cousins will be that bothered about that?

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Forever and a day you will feel inadequate as a man when you happen to pull up against a DB11 with a 'real' Aston engine with 50% more cylinders.

Seriously?! You'd feel inadequate? Bloody hell! If I pulled up next to a V12V/S in my V8VS, I'd be waving & thinking, 'I'm having one of those next!!' In fact I do, regularly!

Edited by HBradley on Wednesday 28th June 15:04

[mattf93]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Forever and a day you will feel inadequate as a man when you happen to pull up against a DB11 with a 'real' Aston engine with 50% more cylinders.

Seriously?! You'd feel inadequate? Bloody hell! If I pulled up next to a V12V/S in my V8VS, I'd be waving & thinking, 'I'm having one of those next!!' In fact I do, regularly!

I think this will be similar to the scenario of the Bentley with the W12 and V8S (admittedly though the Aston V12 does have a far fruitier soundtrack than the hum of the Bentley)
The Bentley V8S drives and sounds considerably better due to the lower weight over the front axle (even though I appreciate it is 1/2 tonne heavier than the Db11) - so I will be very interested to see if this DB11 V8 loses out in any way at all?

If people moan it loses power just remap the ECU on the v8 and then you have more than enough grunt to overshadow the V12 in a straight line...
Wonder if you can remove a fuse like with NA cars to keep valves open earlier too???

[BamfordMike]

RobDown said:

2. Someone said V8 for the Vantage and v12 for the flagship DB11. Remember the DB11 is not the flagship, the Vanquish is (and shouldn't have a V8). The DB11 is the 'middle' car so it perhaps not unreasonable to have bothe engines

.....

Confused model line up is half the problem - should do something similar to Bentley.

Instead of positioning DB11 above Vantage and below Vanquish and having a Rapide in the mix...

Punt DB11 out with a V8 engine only and stretch chassis into being a proper 4 seater - so this is the luxo barge GT similar to Bentley Flying Spur and the cheapest product at about 100-150k.

Have the 2 door 2 seater sports car, like conti GT at about 160k-220k depending on spec - this car being the main focus / product in sports segment

Then instead of ultra luxo barge like the Mulsanne, Aston have an ultimate ultra luxo 2 door 2 seater GT Vanquish at Mulsanne money of 250k

That way the cheap DB11 gets sales volume, the brand has clear focus on what it's sports car is and the ultimate luxo GT is everything outrageous the market expects from an Aston.

[DB9VolanteDriver]

GlynV8 said:

Many journalists seem to prefer the V8 Bentley compared to the W12 as it is more agile and generally a more spirited drive. It could be similar with the DB11.

But the weight of the engine is over the front axle for the Bentley, so lopping 4 cylinders off makes a huge difference. Aston does not have this problem, being a FM-engine layout.

[DB9VolanteDriver]

HBradley said:

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Forever and a day you will feel inadequate as a man when you happen to pull up against a DB11 with a 'real' Aston engine with 50% more cylinders.

Seriously?! You'd feel inadequate? Bloody hell! If I pulled up next to a V12V/S in my V8VS, I'd be waving & thinking, 'I'm having one of those next!!' In fact I do, regularly!

Edited by HBradley on Wednesday 28th June 15:04

So you agree then. Your v8 makes you feel inadequate...

[spyker138]

Sorry I don't want an Aston with a C63S engine, switchgear, flat screen and mouse. I don't want a DBX either, whatever the engine. I'm not falling for brand engineering and big production lines that assemble mass produced components into 'Hand Made in England (err Wales?) cars.

How about
1 reduce production capacity to something sustainable through all economic cycles, keep to less than 3000 cars a year
2 have simpler less capital intensive dealerships
3 differentiate the model lines more and stick to two (sports car, GT car)
4 for the sports car shrink it, fit a straight six that sings (maybe a version of the recent Jaguar announced range of engines) and lose about 300 kgs.
5 or the GT stick to a 6/12 option. Forget V8's.

For me 400bhp is more than enough in a light enough car. Six inches off the width makes all the difference to hooning in Wales/Yorkshie/Alps/London. Happy to lose some of the gizmos, have smaller wheels and tyres (better ride, less unsprung weight). Doesn't have to be carbon fibre to be light, can just be less of everything to start with.

Maybe I'm describing the ultimate new Vantage. Add a decent pipe sized ashtray and could be a new DB4GT.

Edited by spyker138 on Wednesday 28th June 17:41

[Cold]

spyker138 said:

Sorry I don't want an Aston with a C63S engine, switchgear, flat screen and mouse. I don't want a DBX either, whatever the engine. I'm not falling for brand engineering and big production lines that assemble mass produced components into 'Hand Made in England (err Wales?) cars.

I do prefer my Aston with its Lotus chassis, Ford engine, Italian gearbox, Volvo switchgear and Volvo mirrors. It's much more British than this new German stuff.

[Jon39]

Squaremeal said:

To sound a contrary note....

I think it's a terrible idea and I'm disappointed.

Save the V8 for the Vantage and save V8 into DB11 for later in its lifespan.

The DB11 should always be first and formost a V12 halo GT.

I conclude that the main reason must be the potential of huge sales in China.

Now with the large taxation charge for over 4 litre cars in China, AML presumably must have had difficulty with sales there, even though that market has been booming.

I don't know the exact arithmetic, but a DB11 V8 in China will have a total price (with no over 4 litre tax) that appears to be a bargain, in comparison with an identical looking DB11 V12 (whose price does have to include the over 4 litre tax).


( Can anyone tell us those numbers? )

Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 29th June 05:30

[RobDown]

China things

1. The DB11 V8 is expected to retail for USD400k compared with the USD470k of a DB11 V12 in China

2. According to one Chinese newspaper most of the RapidE production is destined for China

3. The same paper suggests China is now Aston Martin's second largest market (which I guess makes sense given similar stats for Bentley and Porsche)

[Beefmeister]

Does that $70k delta include the extra tax for the V12?

[nite_narc]

Called it - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[Speedraser]

Cold said:

spyker138 said:

Sorry I don't want an Aston with a C63S engine, switchgear, flat screen and mouse. I don't want a DBX either, whatever the engine. I'm not falling for brand engineering and big production lines that assemble mass produced components into 'Hand Made in England (err Wales?) cars.

I do prefer my Aston with its Lotus chassis, Ford engine, Italian gearbox, Volvo switchgear and Volvo mirrors. It's much more British than this new German stuff.

Based on this line of "thinking," every car with a separate chassis shares its platform with a Model T Ford.

[Speedraser]

Jon39 said:

with bespoke air intake, exhaust and wet sump lubrication systems.

A good job our American friends are still asleep.
Speedraser will be very sad when he wakes to this news.


and
Why would AM change the Mercedes dry sump engine, to an everyday wet sump?

Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 28th June 08:33

Been busy

Worst fears fully realized. Appalling. To add insult to injury, it's the first "Aston" to hide its (someone-else's) engine under a plastic cover. Maybe that's an admission of embarrassment. Somewhat ironically, if it were an Aston V8, I'd potentially prefer it to the V12 due to the weight and handling benefits. But it's not, it's just someone else's off-the-shelf engine. Comprehensively ruins it for me. Shameful.

[HBradley]

Speedraser said:

Been busy

Worst fears fully realized. Appalling. To add insult to injury, it's the first "Aston" to hide its (someone-else's) engine under a plastic cover. Maybe that's an admission of embarrassment. Somewhat ironically, if it were an Aston V8, I'd potentially prefer it to the V12 due to the weight and handling benefits. But it's not, it's just someone else's off-the-shelf engine. Comprehensively ruins it for me. Shameful.

Sounds like a Trump tweet!

Edited by HBradley on Thursday 29th June 10:03

[HBradley]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

HBradley said:

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Forever and a day you will feel inadequate as a man when you happen to pull up against a DB11 with a 'real' Aston engine with 50% more cylinders.

Seriously?! You'd feel inadequate? Bloody hell! If I pulled up next to a V12V/S in my V8VS, I'd be waving & thinking, 'I'm having one of those next!!' In fact I do, regularly!

Edited by HBradley on Wednesday 28th June 15:04

So you agree then. Your v8 makes you feel inadequate...

Nope - Ex-military - always planning the next manoeuvre!

[jonby]

Speedraser said:

Worst fears fully realized.:

This feels like deja vu

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...



I appreciate nite narc keeps telling us he called it (his actual post in March of this year says simply 'a DB11 with a V8 would be good' so I'm not quite sure what he 'called') but we all knew this was coming - Aston did announce as such specifically (that they would be using the AMG V8) & publicly in 2013 !

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/opinion/what-asto...

And I note in 2015, we were talking on here about when the DB11 comes out with the V8, not 'if'

[BamfordMike]

Speedraser said:

someone else's off-the-shelf engine.
Comprehensively ruins it

What comprehensively ruins the motor car as we know it will be legislation like Obama's dramatic improvement to fleet-wide fuel efficiency to 54.5 mpg by 2025. Initially, the standards for years 2022-2025 were to be reviewed by April 2018, but they were rushed through just days before Obama left office. Now Trump is trying to repeal but despite most of the auto industry agreeing the target is too stringent, the law makers and breakers in the US are putting up resistance, imho, probably because they agree with the agenda of forcing through technology that few but globalists want (electric driverless cars). Normally, new car legislation starts at EPA / Carb and wafts across to Euro and China / Japan.

To meet the ever increasing standards which dont really help the environment much further (the petrol engine is already pretty clean thesedays) means massive investment in drivetrain technology to achieve the 54.5mpg target. That scenario inevitably means a particular car groups parent will take the design and development lead and spew that product out to all subsidiary car companies (same underpinning across a group but different coachwork plonked on top to differentiate a brand). The move to 4l and for perhaps China helps the today, but how does a car company like Aston prepare for the tomorrow / 2025? Only answer is to take copy / paste technology from a parent or go out of business because the R&D is not simply out of reach - but is totally financially impossible.

Aston is in no-mans-land, slightly too big to claim kit car maker reduced stringent legislation allowances but nowhere near big enough to have its own tech - but regardless of that, the petrol engine normal passenger car will change beyond recognition starting 2021 and for 2025 - the petrol engine sports car is doomed and what you see now is pretty much the start of that process. If electric is the answer, it needs to get past its current 'brick mobile phone' technology stage to be the iPhone it needs to be to make a good passenger car, let alone a sports car with more range than a few miles when pedal is to the metal.

I share your frustration but the end result of a copy / paste engine under the hood, Can you really blame Aston? And as Clarkson said on top gear - enjoy your V12V manual - end of an era!