AML - Stock Market Listing
Discussion
I, for one, was happy to read this announcement, albeit a day late. (I was too busy oggling cars at AM Bristol yesterday 
).
To me, it represents a realistic lifeline and future, just as Ford’s involvement did. Many of us are still very fond of the Ford-era cars and later direct derivatives. We never worry about the Ford involvement; the cars are truly robust and proven, on road and track.
This MB involvement is simply a new era that will ensure the next 10+ years.
My business is software with a background in mechanical engineering. Sadly, I expect developing a new hybrid V6 is now probably cheaper than developing a unique infotainment system. I want Aston to keep on concentrating on the bits that make Astons special; chassis, bodywork and feel-good interior. And wonderful ownership satisfaction.
I didn’t care less my previous V8 engines originated in Germany. The overall package had true personality, which is what I miss.
Doubt I’d ever miss a past car ‘cos the infotainment menu system had nice graphics or the menu scroller was slick.
We can all buy the same ingredients a 5 star restaurant gets in. It’s the resultant dish that is memorable; not the carrots, potatoes or dairy stuffs that was required to make it.
Good luck to ‘em on this next era!
).To me, it represents a realistic lifeline and future, just as Ford’s involvement did. Many of us are still very fond of the Ford-era cars and later direct derivatives. We never worry about the Ford involvement; the cars are truly robust and proven, on road and track.
This MB involvement is simply a new era that will ensure the next 10+ years.
My business is software with a background in mechanical engineering. Sadly, I expect developing a new hybrid V6 is now probably cheaper than developing a unique infotainment system. I want Aston to keep on concentrating on the bits that make Astons special; chassis, bodywork and feel-good interior. And wonderful ownership satisfaction.
I didn’t care less my previous V8 engines originated in Germany. The overall package had true personality, which is what I miss.
Doubt I’d ever miss a past car ‘cos the infotainment menu system had nice graphics or the menu scroller was slick.
We can all buy the same ingredients a 5 star restaurant gets in. It’s the resultant dish that is memorable; not the carrots, potatoes or dairy stuffs that was required to make it.
Good luck to ‘em on this next era!
Quite like that analogy nick. Pretty much sums up my feelings too, if it looks great, goes well, and feels well screwed together I don’t really care if Bob or a machine did the work, or if Mercedes tech is used to make it better/more reliable.
There was an earlier comment about Aston questionable build quality being left back in the nineties. There were plenty of questionable panel gaps on the early DB9 cars I looked at back in the noughties, as well as on the DB7 Volante I was scoffed at by the Aston salesman for not buying instead of a precision built Mercedes SL.
There was an earlier comment about Aston questionable build quality being left back in the nineties. There were plenty of questionable panel gaps on the early DB9 cars I looked at back in the noughties, as well as on the DB7 Volante I was scoffed at by the Aston salesman for not buying instead of a precision built Mercedes SL.
I haven't had time to read through the comments on the latest news, but this was my initial reaction: A crying shame, and exactly what I said would happen. First it was AMG engines in "Astons" -- great engine, but it has no business being in an Aston Martin. Next it'll be platform sharing. Let's be clear -- an entire bought-in engine is a completely different level than buying various minor parts, as Aston has for so long. The engine is the heart of the car, the structure is its bones. Now, there will be even more powertrain stuff from Benz, and it's apparently not limited to electric stuff. An Aston with shared engines and/or platforms is not an Aston -- it's a badge-engineered version of something else. All the specialness will be lost. They'd try to dress it up, but it would still be a Merc underneath. A Bentley Continental that shares it's structure and powertrain with VW/Audi/Porsche (depending on generation) isn't really a Bentley, not to me. It's telling that BMW has stopped platform-sharing with Rolls-Royce -- because a Rolls that's a 7-Series underneath isn't a Rolls-Royce. Huge step in the right direction. These are expensive cars -- spend the money and do it right, or don't do it at all. Merc has an unblemished record of making an utter and complete disaster of these types of ventures. Ford was a beneficent parent. Merc won't be -- it never has been. Would you buy a Ferrari with a Merc engine? Of course not. Would you buy a Ferrari with a Merc platform? Of course not. Because neither would be a Ferrari. A Merc-powered or platformed "Aston" isn't an Aston. That comprehensively defeats the purpose. Obviously, I want to see the marque survive, but to see it devolve into a merely a version of something else is untenable. I hope I'm wrong, but this is becoming the automotive tragedy that I feared it would.
That said... If it's only the electrical stuff and similar, that's one thing. If it helps implement Aston's own new V6, that's great since, for me, the AMG engine is an absolute deal breaker. Shared platforms would be a total deal-breaker as well. if it actually does let Aston get on with designing and building their own engines and platforms -- the parts that really make an Aston an Aston -- then fantastic. But with 20% ownership on the way, and looking at history (Maybach is just the most recent), I think this is a huge step to Astons becoming based on, or versions of, Benzes. That would be an automotive travesty.
Hoping I'll have time to read through the posts later tonight, and really hoping I'm less pessimistic afterward.
That said... If it's only the electrical stuff and similar, that's one thing. If it helps implement Aston's own new V6, that's great since, for me, the AMG engine is an absolute deal breaker. Shared platforms would be a total deal-breaker as well. if it actually does let Aston get on with designing and building their own engines and platforms -- the parts that really make an Aston an Aston -- then fantastic. But with 20% ownership on the way, and looking at history (Maybach is just the most recent), I think this is a huge step to Astons becoming based on, or versions of, Benzes. That would be an automotive travesty.
Hoping I'll have time to read through the posts later tonight, and really hoping I'm less pessimistic afterward.
Jon39 said:
Grow sales to about 10,000 by 2025.
Increase revenues to £2 billion.
Earnings of about £500m in five years time.
That is the new target.
If those earnings are pre-tax, then AML won't need a parent.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong when I revisit this thread in 2025...
Thankyou4calling said:
I’m intrigued to know how the DBX is selling.
It all feels a bit quiet on that front for a car that is going to spearhead a new era,
I was about to say none on Autotrader - and bear in mind EVERY brand new car seems to appear not long after launched on their site. But I tell a lie one popped up now. In doom blue and a smidge under £180k.It all feels a bit quiet on that front for a car that is going to spearhead a new era,
Argleton said:
I was about to say none on Autotrader - and bear in mind EVERY brand new car seems to appear not long after launched on their site. But I tell a lie one popped up now. In doom blue and a smidge under £180k.
Funny - Are there any flip speculators with big enough items to risk that game at the moment ? if there are - I am sure there are more rare and appealing prospects than what is supposed to be a (relative at 4k units per annum) volume model like the DBX is supposed to be?Secondly, if they are only building to order - the likely hood of one selling quick after delivery is probably due to DDD
Speedraser said:
I haven't had time to read through the comments on the latest news, but this was my initial reaction: A crying shame, and exactly what I said would happen. First it was AMG engines in "Astons" -- great engine, but it has no business being in an Aston Martin. Next it'll be platform sharing. Let's be clear -- an entire bought-in engine is a completely different level than buying various minor parts, as Aston has for so long. The engine is the heart of the car, the structure is its bones. Now, there will be even more powertrain stuff from Benz, and it's apparently not limited to electric stuff. An Aston with shared engines and/or platforms is not an Aston -- it's a badge-engineered version of something else. All the specialness will be lost. They'd try to dress it up, but it would still be a Merc underneath. A Bentley Continental that shares it's structure and powertrain with VW/Audi/Porsche (depending on generation) isn't really a Bentley, not to me. It's telling that BMW has stopped platform-sharing with Rolls-Royce -- because a Rolls that's a 7-Series underneath isn't a Rolls-Royce. Huge step in the right direction. These are expensive cars -- spend the money and do it right, or don't do it at all. Merc has an unblemished record of making an utter and complete disaster of these types of ventures. Ford was a beneficent parent. Merc won't be -- it never has been. Would you buy a Ferrari with a Merc engine? Of course not. Would you buy a Ferrari with a Merc platform? Of course not. Because neither would be a Ferrari. A Merc-powered or platformed "Aston" isn't an Aston. That comprehensively defeats the purpose. Obviously, I want to see the marque survive, but to see it devolve into a merely a version of something else is untenable. I hope I'm wrong, but this is becoming the automotive tragedy that I feared it would.
That said... If it's only the electrical stuff and similar, that's one thing. If it helps implement Aston's own new V6, that's great since, for me, the AMG engine is an absolute deal breaker. Shared platforms would be a total deal-breaker as well. if it actually does let Aston get on with designing and building their own engines and platforms -- the parts that really make an Aston an Aston -- then fantastic. But with 20% ownership on the way, and looking at history (Maybach is just the most recent), I think this is a huge step to Astons becoming based on, or versions of, Benzes. That would be an automotive travesty.
Hoping I'll have time to read through the posts later tonight, and really hoping I'm less pessimistic afterward.
Agree entirely with Speedraser’s post.That said... If it's only the electrical stuff and similar, that's one thing. If it helps implement Aston's own new V6, that's great since, for me, the AMG engine is an absolute deal breaker. Shared platforms would be a total deal-breaker as well. if it actually does let Aston get on with designing and building their own engines and platforms -- the parts that really make an Aston an Aston -- then fantastic. But with 20% ownership on the way, and looking at history (Maybach is just the most recent), I think this is a huge step to Astons becoming based on, or versions of, Benzes. That would be an automotive travesty.
Hoping I'll have time to read through the posts later tonight, and really hoping I'm less pessimistic afterward.
I just hope Aston Martin doesn’t lose its soul and Mercedes give them enough freedom to continue development of their own engines and platforms.
I don’t mind Aston using some technology from Mercedes like inevitable hybrid tech and latest infotainment but they need to keep the vehicles bespoke with a character of their own.
Speedraser said:
I haven't had time to read through the comments on the latest news, but this was my initial reaction: A crying shame, and exactly what I said would happen.
When you have time to read the documents Speedraser, it might not be as bad as you fear. This is my take on it.
1. AML have to sell £840 million of junk bonds (one of the largest issues of its kind in Europe this year), then use the proceeds to redeem existing senior secured debt.
2. By announcing the Mercedes-Benz new technology agreement at the same time, that must help number 1.
3. Some commentators have said Mercedes-Benz are buying 20% of Aston Martin. They are not buying AML shares, neither did they buy their original 5% holding and did not even participate in the rights issue (which is why their 5% holding went down to 2.6%).
By agreeing to sell parts to AML, MB are being given Aston Martin shares. They presumably would have expected a sizeable payment just to agree parts deals, but it probably suits AML to give shares instead. Therefore Daimler might have more interest in selling parts to Aston Martin, than wanting to own Aston Martin.
We will have to wait to know the answer to that.
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 28th October 21:51
Speedraser said:
I haven't had time to read through the comments on the latest news, but this was my initial reaction: A crying shame, and exactly what I said would happen. First it was AMG engines in "Astons" -- great engine, but it has no business being in an Aston Martin. Next it'll be platform sharing. Let's be clear -- an entire bought-in engine is a completely different level than buying various minor parts, as Aston has for so long. The engine is the heart of the car, the structure is its bones. Now, there will be even more powertrain stuff from Benz, and it's apparently not limited to electric stuff. An Aston with shared engines and/or platforms is not an Aston -- it's a badge-engineered version of something else. All the specialness will be lost. They'd try to dress it up, but it would still be a Merc underneath. A Bentley Continental that shares it's structure and powertrain with VW/Audi/Porsche (depending on generation) isn't really a Bentley, not to me. It's telling that BMW has stopped platform-sharing with Rolls-Royce -- because a Rolls that's a 7-Series underneath isn't a Rolls-Royce. Huge step in the right direction. These are expensive cars -- spend the money and do it right, or don't do it at all. Merc has an unblemished record of making an utter and complete disaster of these types of ventures. Ford was a beneficent parent. Merc won't be -- it never has been. Would you buy a Ferrari with a Merc engine? Of course not. Would you buy a Ferrari with a Merc platform? Of course not. Because neither would be a Ferrari. A Merc-powered or platformed "Aston" isn't an Aston. That comprehensively defeats the purpose. Obviously, I want to see the marque survive, but to see it devolve into a merely a version of something else is untenable. I hope I'm wrong, but this is becoming the automotive tragedy that I feared it would.
That said... If it's only the electrical stuff and similar, that's one thing. If it helps implement Aston's own new V6, that's great since, for me, the AMG engine is an absolute deal breaker. Shared platforms would be a total deal-breaker as well. if it actually does let Aston get on with designing and building their own engines and platforms -- the parts that really make an Aston an Aston -- then fantastic. But with 20% ownership on the way, and looking at history (Maybach is just the most recent), I think this is a huge step to Astons becoming based on, or versions of, Benzes. That would be an automotive travesty.
Hoping I'll have time to read through the posts later tonight, and really hoping I'm less pessimistic afterward.
So you're OK with platform and engine sharing so long as it's Ford not M-B? How does/did that double Duratec V6-derived engine sound in the Vanquish you have listed as a current car? That bonded aluminium and carbon VH structure developed in partnership with Lotus? Did/do those Ford Focus turn signal stalks feel particularly premium?That said... If it's only the electrical stuff and similar, that's one thing. If it helps implement Aston's own new V6, that's great since, for me, the AMG engine is an absolute deal breaker. Shared platforms would be a total deal-breaker as well. if it actually does let Aston get on with designing and building their own engines and platforms -- the parts that really make an Aston an Aston -- then fantastic. But with 20% ownership on the way, and looking at history (Maybach is just the most recent), I think this is a huge step to Astons becoming based on, or versions of, Benzes. That would be an automotive travesty.
Hoping I'll have time to read through the posts later tonight, and really hoping I'm less pessimistic afterward.
oilit said:
Funny - Are there any flip speculators with big enough items to risk that game at the moment ? if there are - I am sure there are more rare and appealing prospects than what is supposed to be a (relative at 4k units per annum) volume model like the DBX is supposed to be?
The seller seems to have a bunch of delivery-mileage Astons, RRs, etc...250 miles on the DBX. I expect the asking price is very similar to list, but I have no idea how much those options cost....
nite_narc said:
So you're OK with platform and engine sharing so long as it's Ford not M-B? How does/did that double Duratec V6-derived engine sound in the Vanquish you have listed as a current car? That bonded aluminium and carbon VH structure developed in partnership with Lotus? Did/do those Ford Focus turn signal stalks feel particularly premium?
Ffs, they are Jaguar X Type indicator stalks!Jon39 said:
When you have time to read the documents Speedraser, it might not be as bad as you fear. This is my take on it.
1. AML have to sell £840 million of junk bonds (one of the largest issues of its kind in Europe this year), then use the proceeds to redeem existing senior secured debt.
2. By announcing the Mercedes-Benz new technology agreement at the same time, that must help number 1.
3. Some commentators have said Mercedes-Benz are buying 20% of Aston Martin. They are not buying AML shares, neither did they buy their original 5% holding and did not even participate in the rights issue (which is why their 5% holding went down to 2.6%).
By agreeing to sell parts to AML, MB are being given Aston Martin shares. They presumably would have expected a sizeable payment just to agree parts deals, but it probably suits AML to give shares instead. Therefore Daimler might have more interest in selling parts to Aston Martin, than wanting to own Aston Martin.
We will have to wait to know the answer to that.
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 28th October 21:51
AM would have to invest about 2billion from scratch to attain the technology offered by MB. This is a life line for AM.
MB doesn't need to part with any cash but MB gets to sell more parts and potentially make some money on the shares.
NFC 85 Vette said:
I think it's accepted already that the UK isn't the primary market. The 'problem' has been the deviation from subtle styling, that was adjudged to have left the UK market behind and alienated it. In time that will be resolved - be it greater acceptance of the design language shift, or sufficient mid-life face lifts to appeal to a more purist consumer.
The surprising thing about this announcement is that from skimming through the editorial thread and this one, most Aston enthusiasts i.e. people who actually own one or several, seem happier about the move than those on the outside looking in, claiming it's the dawn of Mercedes cars sporting Aston badges and it's the death of the company.
Of course half the reason for that is there's a lot of knuckle-draggers who describe a DBX as being a Mercedes GLC with an Aston badge, or the Vantage being an AMG GT in a different dress, because they're unaware or ignorant to the fact that Aston Martin has always relied on buying in parts or technology from elsewhere. Granted, that hadn't always been the bulk of an engine - but the interim step to use the M177 V8 has opened the door to a lot of tasty technology that Aston didn't have a hope of developing its own, equivalent version of on the cheap. That V8 wont be between the suspension turrets forever - I appreciate it's a deal breaker for many, but it was a stepping stone that's been pivotal in keeping the car maker relevant and not falling further behind.
The new agreement paves the way to get the latest equipment into the cars - particularly the hybrid technology which the company desperately needed. As far as I know, the TM01 V6 isn't being canned, and instead now has the opportunity to come to market in the series production cars with hybrid assistance (instead of only being hybrid equipped in the Valhalla). That's not an immediate thing, we're still some years away, but the hybrid tech was the missing link in the chain that has now been found.
Current MBUX would replace the COMAND system, and perhaps finally those in desperate need of a touch screen that's difficult to use while driving, will be content
The difference this time around, is the company has the time, resources and money to integrate it all and make the interiors look how they should.
Good postThe surprising thing about this announcement is that from skimming through the editorial thread and this one, most Aston enthusiasts i.e. people who actually own one or several, seem happier about the move than those on the outside looking in, claiming it's the dawn of Mercedes cars sporting Aston badges and it's the death of the company.
Of course half the reason for that is there's a lot of knuckle-draggers who describe a DBX as being a Mercedes GLC with an Aston badge, or the Vantage being an AMG GT in a different dress, because they're unaware or ignorant to the fact that Aston Martin has always relied on buying in parts or technology from elsewhere. Granted, that hadn't always been the bulk of an engine - but the interim step to use the M177 V8 has opened the door to a lot of tasty technology that Aston didn't have a hope of developing its own, equivalent version of on the cheap. That V8 wont be between the suspension turrets forever - I appreciate it's a deal breaker for many, but it was a stepping stone that's been pivotal in keeping the car maker relevant and not falling further behind.
The new agreement paves the way to get the latest equipment into the cars - particularly the hybrid technology which the company desperately needed. As far as I know, the TM01 V6 isn't being canned, and instead now has the opportunity to come to market in the series production cars with hybrid assistance (instead of only being hybrid equipped in the Valhalla). That's not an immediate thing, we're still some years away, but the hybrid tech was the missing link in the chain that has now been found.
Current MBUX would replace the COMAND system, and perhaps finally those in desperate need of a touch screen that's difficult to use while driving, will be content
The difference this time around, is the company has the time, resources and money to integrate it all and make the interiors look how they should.
nite_narc said:
Speedraser said:
I haven't had time to read through the comments on the latest news, but this was my initial reaction: A crying shame, and exactly what I said would happen. First it was AMG engines in "Astons" -- great engine, but it has no business being in an Aston Martin. Next it'll be platform sharing. Let's be clear -- an entire bought-in engine is a completely different level than buying various minor parts, as Aston has for so long. The engine is the heart of the car, the structure is its bones. Now, there will be even more powertrain stuff from Benz, and it's apparently not limited to electric stuff. An Aston with shared engines and/or platforms is not an Aston -- it's a badge-engineered version of something else. All the specialness will be lost. They'd try to dress it up, but it would still be a Merc underneath. A Bentley Continental that shares it's structure and powertrain with VW/Audi/Porsche (depending on generation) isn't really a Bentley, not to me. It's telling that BMW has stopped platform-sharing with Rolls-Royce -- because a Rolls that's a 7-Series underneath isn't a Rolls-Royce. Huge step in the right direction. These are expensive cars -- spend the money and do it right, or don't do it at all. Merc has an unblemished record of making an utter and complete disaster of these types of ventures. Ford was a beneficent parent. Merc won't be -- it never has been. Would you buy a Ferrari with a Merc engine? Of course not. Would you buy a Ferrari with a Merc platform? Of course not. Because neither would be a Ferrari. A Merc-powered or platformed "Aston" isn't an Aston. That comprehensively defeats the purpose. Obviously, I want to see the marque survive, but to see it devolve into a merely a version of something else is untenable. I hope I'm wrong, but this is becoming the automotive tragedy that I feared it would.
That said... If it's only the electrical stuff and similar, that's one thing. If it helps implement Aston's own new V6, that's great since, for me, the AMG engine is an absolute deal breaker. Shared platforms would be a total deal-breaker as well. if it actually does let Aston get on with designing and building their own engines and platforms -- the parts that really make an Aston an Aston -- then fantastic. But with 20% ownership on the way, and looking at history (Maybach is just the most recent), I think this is a huge step to Astons becoming based on, or versions of, Benzes. That would be an automotive travesty.
Hoping I'll have time to read through the posts later tonight, and really hoping I'm less pessimistic afterward.
So you're OK with platform and engine sharing so long as it's Ford not M-B? How does/did that double Duratec V6-derived engine sound in the Vanquish you have listed as a current car? That bonded aluminium and carbon VH structure developed in partnership with Lotus? Did/do those Ford Focus turn signal stalks feel particularly premium?That said... If it's only the electrical stuff and similar, that's one thing. If it helps implement Aston's own new V6, that's great since, for me, the AMG engine is an absolute deal breaker. Shared platforms would be a total deal-breaker as well. if it actually does let Aston get on with designing and building their own engines and platforms -- the parts that really make an Aston an Aston -- then fantastic. But with 20% ownership on the way, and looking at history (Maybach is just the most recent), I think this is a huge step to Astons becoming based on, or versions of, Benzes. That would be an automotive travesty.
Hoping I'll have time to read through the posts later tonight, and really hoping I'm less pessimistic afterward.
Jon 39 - Speedraser - AM desperately need a parent, always have, and always will. No sane person will buy a DB13 over an SL55 AMG if the latter is truly sophisticated, backed by in depth tried and tested tech, and the former isn’t. Nobody wants to buy an anachronism, and the high standard of cars now is a benchmark the best cannot fall below. We are not however now in the era where Ford buy Ghia, who bodied the Mangusta and others, then produce stuff like the Granada Ghia. The German manufacturers are sophisticated, well funded, knowledgeable and determined. Most of all they have the motor industry in their blood. BMW know that ultimately RR need their own chassis, so, once the business is strong enough, as soon as the business is strong enough, they do it. This is not a cynical exercise, and it is the same with MB, BMW and VW. They know what is right and they will do it if it is within their power. Who else would do that?
It was a tragedy when AM fell into the hands of corporate rapists like InvestIndustrial, but it was helped by the attitudes of those who wish to hark back to the past and cling to a romantic notion that AML should somehow be independent. I remember those days and they were a desperate daily struggle to survive, while producing a product that while sublime, suffered from unacceptable flaws which owners were expected to put up with and ultimately didn’t.
I so wish that we could all get over this notion that this or that car ‘isn’t a real Aston’, ‘isn't a real Bentley’, ‘isn’t a real Rolls-Royce’. This is infantile stuff. They are, every one of them. There are just better ones and worse ones. WO or Sir Henry were never going to live forever. There is no corporate structure which guarantees authenticity through the ages, there is only the willingness and the ability to pick up the fallen standard and carry it forward to the best of your ability. This the Germans have demonstrably done better than anyone.
What AM needs IMHO, is a straight six engine. Nothing else will give you that balanced even shove and delicious growl that is so characteristic of AM. I would trust MB to recognise and deliver that before I would trust any Brit owner of the company.
It was a tragedy when AM fell into the hands of corporate rapists like InvestIndustrial, but it was helped by the attitudes of those who wish to hark back to the past and cling to a romantic notion that AML should somehow be independent. I remember those days and they were a desperate daily struggle to survive, while producing a product that while sublime, suffered from unacceptable flaws which owners were expected to put up with and ultimately didn’t.
I so wish that we could all get over this notion that this or that car ‘isn’t a real Aston’, ‘isn't a real Bentley’, ‘isn’t a real Rolls-Royce’. This is infantile stuff. They are, every one of them. There are just better ones and worse ones. WO or Sir Henry were never going to live forever. There is no corporate structure which guarantees authenticity through the ages, there is only the willingness and the ability to pick up the fallen standard and carry it forward to the best of your ability. This the Germans have demonstrably done better than anyone.
What AM needs IMHO, is a straight six engine. Nothing else will give you that balanced even shove and delicious growl that is so characteristic of AM. I would trust MB to recognise and deliver that before I would trust any Brit owner of the company.
cardigankid said:
What AM needs IMHO, is a straight six engine. Nothing else will give you that balanced even shove and delicious growl that is so characteristic of AM. I would trust MB to recognise and deliver that before I would trust any Brit owner of the company.
For twenty five years in a row they only offered their V8. cardigankid said:
We are not however now in the era where Ford buy Ghia, who bodied the Mangusta and others, then produce stuff like the Granada Ghia.
That’ll be why the AMG badge is slapped on all manner of dross, including a 4 cylinder hatchback. Mercedes don’t have a good history of running Mercedes, never mind other marques.
Sebastian Tombs said:
cardigankid said:
We are not however now in the era where Ford buy Ghia, who bodied the Mangusta and others, then produce stuff like the Granada Ghia.
That’ll be why the AMG badge is slapped on all manner of dross, including a 4 cylinder hatchback. Mercedes don’t have a good history of running Mercedes, never mind other marques.
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