Confused on servicing - cost and what needs to be done

Confused on servicing - cost and what needs to be done

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Discussion

cayman-black

12,625 posts

215 months

Wednesday 20th June 2018
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You might do all that BM but i bet the main dealers wont ,in fact, i.m certain they won't. If you read on here, over the years, all the cars purchased from main dealers, the problems they go to the customer with is unbelievable.

Loose_Cannon

1,593 posts

252 months

Wednesday 20th June 2018
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How much is an equivalent service to the dealer's basic £650 one at Bamford Rose, and how many hours are invested? Genuine question, not being sarkey.

Jockman

17,912 posts

159 months

Wednesday 20th June 2018
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Glad to see Mike give a greater insight into service costs. A good ongoing relationship with a dealer or reputable Indy will also cost a lot less in my experience.

Sure, some dealers will try to take the pistachio but just learn to push back wherever you can.

JaseB

854 posts

260 months

Wednesday 20th June 2018
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I’ve just had my V12V serviced at Bamford Rose for the 2nd time (they looked after my DB9 before that), it was medium level which was oil & filter, air filters and brake fluid, total cost inc vat £650. I did point out to them the price on their website was higher than what I’d paid, the answer to that question made me chuckle but you’ll have to ask Mike yourself about that...

I know the complete service duration was 6 ish hours, no problem to me as I always leave it with them for the week anyway.

If you look in the service book there’s actually a time allocation for each service, which according to the book at main dealer ranges from about 2.5hrs minor to 3.75hrs major.

Obviously other independent garages are available but what I do know is the stuff they look at, the detailed knowledge they have and the time and care they take over and above a main dealer has potentially saved me thousands, for example the V12 breather circuit, brake pad pin depth (definitely saved me a set of rear CCM discs this year), exhaust valve welding etc Plus the little tweaks to stuff like adjusting the fuel filler flap or the free exhaust switch, all included in that inspection time, to me that peace of mind that my car is being given the proper attention is cheap at £650!

Edited by JaseB on Wednesday 20th June 15:43

R129 300SL

274 posts

131 months

Wednesday 20th June 2018
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BamfordMike said:
If that example was on a DB9, which from your posting history is what I guess you have....

The words service and 2hrs in same sentence is very comical.

In this example £651 minus the VAT and raw materials leaves approx £400, so the garage has bagged £200 p/h - now that’s the example of a garage printing money!!

Pick your example of what they didn’t do during the care / inspection part of the service? Perhaps they didn’t Back off the handbrake cable completely, lube it up and then reset it? Probably not, then when you need new handbrake pads in the future which requires handbrake cable backing off, it’ll be seized and you’ll need a new one, £147 parts and 5ish hours labour cos the drivers seat has to come out to fit it. Good example where backing off the preventative maintenance during service causes a larger spend for the owner in the longer run - but wait, it’s a double winner for the garage. £200 p/h for changing oil and then the labour rate to fix the car which only failed due to poor service regime, and that service regime costed £200 p/h labour rate! That’s insane!
Hi Mike

Is a DB9.

Got the sheet showing "service" actions which was all ticked etc. Apart from oil change the rest are all examine / check actions including the handbrake cable you mentioned. No mention of backing off and lubing / resetting it. I would have like them to have done that now you have mentioned what you have!

Done purely for the stamp to be honest. I could have done all that stuff including the oil change myself..

Point taken that independents probably are more thorough. However the buying public are not aware of that..

BW


vpr

3,701 posts

237 months

Wednesday 20th June 2018
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Jockman said:
vpr said:
I'm always struggling with this £1000 oil change dilemma. My wifes DBS only does 50 miles a year so what is the point of servicing it just for a stamp
What is the point of owning it for 50 miles per year?
Fair point. She doesn’t do “flash” and finds it easier to jump in a car on the drive. Not worth selling as might fancy one years down the line.

cayman-black

12,625 posts

215 months

Wednesday 20th June 2018
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Absolutely, better than money in the bank that's for sure!

nickv8

1,342 posts

82 months

Wednesday 20th June 2018
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Permission for me to be a right contentiousness prat... wink

With Vauxhall, Renault, et al charging an easy £200 for a most basic oil change service on an aging made-in-the-hundreds-of-thousands econobox, having a professional scamble over a near-200mph pride an joy for an entire day for £600-odd is not too bad, IMHO. And you get free collection (I’d prefer to drive it there), lifts to town, great drinks and some lovely metal to ogle over, especially over at AM Bristol.

Let’s face it, nobody has ever bought an AM because it was an essential purchase. It’s emotional and it should be pretty obvious nearly every aspect will be more involved... and costly... than a mainstream car.

I admire those who do the work themselves. I’d be tempted to do basic stuff if I had a ramp. If they know what they are doing and look at their pride and joy as a keeper, the stamp in the book is simply irrelevant. But when I put my foot down to blast away and them stomp of the anchors, it helps me to know that fully trained professionals have had an honest look at the car smile

dbs2000

2,681 posts

191 months

Thursday 21st June 2018
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I'd not entertain the idea of self servicing the AM myself full time. As Mike has said, experience is key. Maybe once every 2 years get the car checked.

I serviced all my old cars myself, yanked engines, rebuilt them blah blah but ultimately, Honda Prelude, S2000 and 350Z engines would have only cost <1k to replace.

Ken Figenus

Original Poster:

5,678 posts

116 months

Thursday 21st June 2018
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Good chat guys - but please remember my post was about continuing the stamps in the book on an aging car that has very low book value now (they offered me £40k for it PX...grumpy) rather than about saying we are all being fleeced (those words didn't pass my keyboard). I am very aware of the high overheads and low volume of shiny dealers but I am also aware of my own overheads, and so need to strike a sensible logical long term balance (especially now having a new porker to feed smile ).

I think a lot of this is about how the MD's communicate what they actually do. There is no nitty gritty detail like Mike is pointing out here to geeky types like me. That detail ADDS value and justifies cost... I know Mike cleaned behind my wheels and always checks logs for a misfire and that there is no taboo H&S implication in going under the ramp with him for a poke about. Love all that.

Add to the fact that I don't lose a days in work taking it further afield compared to the local dealer and my decision is made. Plus how many of us have sold keeperseekbiggrin

Cold

15,207 posts

89 months

Thursday 21st June 2018
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If they offered 40k book value with a FSH, how much would they offer with evidence of an unqualified enthusiast being the sole person working on it? Would they even make an offer or would it have become unsellable for them?

nickv8

1,342 posts

82 months

Thursday 21st June 2018
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Ken Figenus said:
Plus how many of us have sold keeperseekbiggrin
LOL! All fair enough biggrin

All IMHO, but I’m not sure I care too much about a full AMSH if I buy as an assured car from an AM dealer. They would slap on a 1 year extended warranty anyway.

JaseB

854 posts

260 months

Thursday 21st June 2018
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Ken Figenus said:
Good chat guys - but please remember my post was about continuing the stamps in the book on an aging car that has very low book value now (they offered me £40k for it PX...grumpy) rather than about saying we are all being fleeced (those words didn't pass my keyboard).
I guess my point was along the lines of MD dealer stamps are to me not great value but my car is also ageing (2009) and having someone with the in depth preventative maintenance knowledge doing their thing to it for only 650 notes seemed good value, but then personally I have in the past got my hands dirty on cars but don't really have the time these days...

Ken Figenus

Original Poster:

5,678 posts

116 months

Thursday 21st June 2018
quotequote all
Cold said:
If they offered 40k book value with a FSH, how much would they offer with evidence of an unqualified enthusiast being the sole person working on it? Would they even make an offer or would it have become unsellable for them?
Fair point mate but MD's of all premium marques aren't really interested in retailing older, milier cars. Many of us are also happy to peruse a bundle of receipts for an enthusiast owned car proving oil and filters and clutches etc - especially applicable for an early Vantage as all of these are completely outside the MD network by now. So I think of course the MD/Specialist stamp has definite value but it gets increasingly less relevant if you are only getting peanuts back for it at point of sale (or indeed are keeping it - for ever)!

raceboy

13,082 posts

279 months

Thursday 21st June 2018
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Ken Figenus said:
especially applicable for an early Vantage as all of these are completely outside the MD network by now.
There's still a few clinging into the Timeless rules, I think they have a cut off point of 60k miles for any model rather than an age related cut off, and I know they are perfectly happy to retail a car that has been serviced outside the dealer network, although not sure about a receipt for an oil filter and oil from Euro Car Parts. wink

https://used.astonmartin.com/en-GB/Search/Details~...

I think the biggest issue is finding somewhere you can trust, somewhere that is going to look after your car how you would yourself, be honest about what does and doesn't need doing right now, and not take the mick with both labour prices and consumables, and ideally not 200 miles away. scratchchin

BamfordMike

1,192 posts

156 months

Thursday 21st June 2018
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nickv8 said:
Permission for me to be a right contentiousness prat... wink

With Vauxhall, Renault, et al charging an easy £200 for a most basic oil change service on an aging made-in-the-hundreds-of-thousands econobox, having a professional scamble over a near-200mph pride an joy for an entire day for £600-odd is not too bad, IMHO. And you get free collection (I’d prefer to drive it there), lifts to town, great drinks and some lovely metal to ogle over, especially over at AM Bristol.

Let’s face it, nobody has ever bought an AM because it was an essential purchase. It’s emotional and it should be pretty obvious nearly every aspect will be more involved... and costly... than a mainstream car.

I admire those who do the work themselves. I’d be tempted to do basic stuff if I had a ramp. If they know what they are doing and look at their pride and joy as a keeper, the stamp in the book is simply irrelevant. But when I put my foot down to blast away and them stomp of the anchors, it helps me to know that fully trained professionals have had an honest look at the car smile
Your quick to make off the cuff comments bring up some interesting discussions the deeper you delve!

I wouldn’t say your comments here are in any way contentious, other than the bit that at franchised dealer for £600 odd quid you get a “days” pampering - I think this thread has proven there’s no way the car is flashed an oily rag for a whole day for that sum, it’s more like 2hrs equating to £200 p/h revenue for the garage when the duration is 2hrs, the consumables is oil and filter and the absolute price is £650

Its obvious from your posting that your comments rather more stem from being taken-in by the ‘brand experience’, which is no bad thing, that part of the ownership experience is entirely horses for courses.
Example - You acknowledge the poor old Vauxhall & Renault dealer toils for his pittance made from the balance of the absolute price of service minus VAT and raw materials, which inevitably results in the service for that dealer at £200 being more like a loss leader designed just to get the customer on the books! Compared to what you then say about the Sports car dealer being able to charge significantly more for what amounts to the same gig because a)it’s a 200mph car, b)someones pride and joy and c)better hospitality. When in reality the speed the car can reach and its privilege status compared to a daily driver car has no relationship whatsoever to a technician being stood underneath either car when on the hoist and questioning if the fluids and consumables have been installed ok and each car has been examined for faults adequately to a process which must exist at both establishments. So to justify there is a difference in price between the 2 genre franchised dealers because of the cars speed and status is a bit irrational hence the comment being sucked in by the ‘brand experience’ meaning theres the potential consequence of money fluttering the wallet without really being sanity checked because the choice of which shop to enter is in reality an emotional decision.

You say if the car is a keeper the stamp is irrelevant, which is correct, but even on cars +3 years old, I know literally scores of chaps totally kicked in the knackers at franchised dealer come trade in time regardless of a book full of franchised stamps or independent stamps compared to a higher trade-in value deal done at well known independent sellers. DazV8S to V12VS if your watching!!

To put your final comment into a more reality based perspective, “fully trained to the latest standard technicians” is fluffy garbage franchised dealers like to speak designed to bolster the sucking into the ‘brand experience’ elements message.
Question? How many of the 200mph Aston’s which entered the LeMans Festival support race were prepared exclusively by franchised dealer technicians who then worked on road cars? How many LMP cars in general saw the inside of a franchised dealer? None I bet!! ***
So, Hammering on the anchors or going on the loud pedal is not achieved to the pinnacle or exclusively by ‘trained’ technicians who have been on the latest courses’.

Here’s an example why...

In reality the crucially important quality is ‘gifted natural aptitude’, but unfortunately for those who like to spout bullcrap and baffle others by it, and including pointless ISO and the like standards, natural aptitude can’t be taught or given out on a meaningless piece of paper (said by someone originally hired by an OEM as designer off ‘natural aptitude’ who’s also 66% complete on a masters).
Take your pick of true hero, mine is Joey Dunlop. In his biography it quotes Joey “didn’t bother much with education", he wasn’t good at learning". Yet this is the bloke the legendary Honda Racing Corporation gave their bikes to for Joey at home and in his shed, in private, with a smoke in mouth, pint of Guinness in one hand and a ratchet in the other hand, to rework the bikes in a way the Honda boffins never could to set lap records and win around the TT and other road racing circuits. Tell me, who would be the best to service and prep your Honda Fireblade road bike or simply a Honda scooter!!?? the trained and ‘qualified’ Honda franchised dealer technician or (RIP) if he was still with us, Joey Dunlop? In reality the certificate laden dealer tech would kiss Dunlop’s boots for a day just to have the privilege to look over his shoulder and watch him work! But bring that back to your comment and the “fully trained” guy wins your adoration!!??

Leaving out a brand experience as part of the ownership journey, this subject is solely about the elements of the service and who done by / the level of TLC applied to the car for a particular cost. As has been pointed out, theres one eye for those in the know that the franchised stamp might be better come resale to the completely naive new buyer.
Reason this situation (parity of cost of ‘service’ between all providers) exists? Simple - the dealer network in 2015 came away from the 10 year rotating consumable cycle to better compete on price by reducing the consumables changed if the mileage is low enough, yet hasn’t properly adjusted pricing accordingly, resulting in the ‘anomaly’ of £200p/h labour rate to change oil and safety check / ‘service’ a car.

  • * St Gallen is the exception, but compared to any other franchised dealer across the globe, respect where it’s due, St Gallen are on a completely different planet! Conceived by petrol heads, run with the mentality of petrol heads for petrol heads - notice the difference? No PLC parent demanding a profit margin. Ironically St Gallen probably top the profit margin scale because of their ethos (whilst others might say they copy, isn’t truly matched by anyone) is actually returning a better brand experience - you’d know once you go there, separately from the workshop the giant scale vending machine is awesome!

nickv8

1,342 posts

82 months

Friday 22nd June 2018
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Hi Mike - I understand your viewpoint.

Out of interest, what would you have charged for a 4 year service of a V8V on 14k miles, including 4 tyre changes (tyres supplied) and full wheel alignment? Personally I wouldn’t have worried if it was your stamp in the book or a main dealer.

Your reputation is very high and I won’t argue against your knowledge and experience. I also think you are right that I have bought lock stock into the whole AM brand. However...

I enjoy my car:
- 1% for when I fill up and find the bill to be less than £80
- 20% glancing back at it or seeing it out of the home office window
- 70% how it drives
- 9% the “ownership experience” I get at the dealer

AM Bristol have always made everything feel special with faultless service. They have fixed every niggle under warranty without even a pause to question it (previous experiences of mainstream manufacturers is typically the polar opposite). They have just done everything right.

When I am in their building I’m not oblivious to the cost of the smart decor and facades. I’m not ignorant to the origin of the money that pays for this. Like many on here (I’m assuming), I’m in business and can see behind all the “fluff”. But that still doesn’t change the fact that it’s one of the true pleasures of ownership (of a car type which nobody absolutely has to have).

I am curious how many AM owners originally bought into the whole experience and found it to fade or tarnish over the years. And why. Is it purely the money aspect?

cayman-black

12,625 posts

215 months

Friday 22nd June 2018
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  • St Gallen is the exception, but compared to any other franchised dealer across the globe, respect where it’s due, St Gallen are on a completely different planet! Conceived by petrol heads, run with the mentality of petrol heads for petrol heads - notice the difference? No PLC parent demanding a profit margin. Ironically St Gallen probably top the profit margin scale because of their ethos (whilst others might say they copy, isn’t truly matched by anyone) is actually returning a better brand experience - you’d know once you go there, separately from the workshop the giant scale vending machine is awesome!
Mike , Switzerland? tia.

Ken Figenus

Original Poster:

5,678 posts

116 months

Saturday 23rd June 2018
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Cold said:
If they offered 40k book value with a FSH, how much would they offer with evidence of an unqualified enthusiast being the sole person working on it? Would they even make an offer or would it have become unsellable for them?
This is a good point, and I'm unsure what the answer is. If you had spent say £5k extra over the years for the franchised dealer stamps, rather than have it done far cheaper or DIY, what more is an older milier car worth? £500 more? Or is it just more sellable? But then if someone is buying an older milier car due to budget and gets a well maintained 'pile of receipts' car in great obvious nick have you not just saved a packet?

I bought a 530d at 96,000 miles years ago and self serviced it myself, Costco discount Mobil 1 oil style... Saved a few grand over the 6 years and the (private) buyer loved the pile of receipts and snaps. Got 2.5k for it at 210,000 miles. Well chuffed!

We just need to be upfront that a lot of the dealer's servicing cost is covering their overheads and has nothing to do with servicing the car or the mechanic's actual time on it. I accept that as I like these guys and booked it in (drop off on way to Heathrow and pickup a week later with 4 shiny new painted wheels too - v convenient). BUT I may be back next year going round in circles with the fellow afflicted wink

PS - the 'whats needed' confusion led me to ask them to do the rear 'auto' diff oil as it hasn't been done for 3 years and its def due at 40k. Still some confusion on the annual brake fluid policy too...

DB4DM

928 posts

122 months

Saturday 23rd June 2018
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I change brake fluid on my old cars ideally every 2 years, 3 at the outside