V8 Vantage manual transmission but with paddle shifters?
Discussion
Is it possible to have a V8 Vantage "manual" transmission, where you change gear using paddles (as they do in the AMR racing cars) and NOT via the clutch pedal?
From reading around I got the impression if I want to use paddle shifters then this is not a manual and I am forced to have a semi-automatic via SSI, SSII, SSIII (which apparently have some weird quirks with usage)
I am aiming this question at V8 Vantage S, N430, GT8, AMR (not the 4.3 and not the new Vantage)
If this isn't available as standard, is it something which could be changed on a car (Bamford Rose etc)?
From reading around I got the impression if I want to use paddle shifters then this is not a manual and I am forced to have a semi-automatic via SSI, SSII, SSIII (which apparently have some weird quirks with usage)
I am aiming this question at V8 Vantage S, N430, GT8, AMR (not the 4.3 and not the new Vantage)
If this isn't available as standard, is it something which could be changed on a car (Bamford Rose etc)?
None of the automatic or semi-automatic aston martins have a clutch pedal (which is a defining point of an automatic as far as I know). The have a clutch (the bit that disconnects the gearbox from the engine), but no clutch pedal.
The V8 Vantage S auto has a robotically operated manual transmission, with a robotically operated clutch. That means it is a conventional manual gearbox, but rather than having a gearstick and a clutch pedal you have paddles. When you pull a paddle the computer disengages the clutch hydrolically, then the gearbox changes gear, then the clutch is re-engaged. That's what the SS and SSII semi-automatic gearboxes do.
Is that what you are looking for? The only Aston Martin's with a clutch pedal are the full manuals.
The V8 Vantage S auto has a robotically operated manual transmission, with a robotically operated clutch. That means it is a conventional manual gearbox, but rather than having a gearstick and a clutch pedal you have paddles. When you pull a paddle the computer disengages the clutch hydrolically, then the gearbox changes gear, then the clutch is re-engaged. That's what the SS and SSII semi-automatic gearboxes do.
Is that what you are looking for? The only Aston Martin's with a clutch pedal are the full manuals.
murphyaj said:
None of the automatic or semi-automatic aston martins have a clutch pedal (which is a defining point of an automatic as far as I know). The have a clutch (the bit that disconnects the gearbox from the engine), but no clutch pedal.
The V8 Vantage S auto has a robotically operated manual transmission, with a robotically operated clutch. That means it is a conventional manual gearbox, but rather than having a gearstick and a clutch pedal you have paddles. When you pull a paddle the computer disengages the clutch hydrolically, then the gearbox changes gear, then the clutch is re-engaged. That's what the SS and SSII semi-automatic gearboxes do.
Is that what you are looking for? The only Aston Martin's with a clutch pedal are the full manuals.
Okay, thank you for this. So it sounds like what I am after is what SSI, SSII and SSIII actually do. The reason I asked is because I have read so many weird tales where people are warned to try these out before buying due to all sorts of quirks, which made me think it wasn't equivalent to a manual +shifters.The V8 Vantage S auto has a robotically operated manual transmission, with a robotically operated clutch. That means it is a conventional manual gearbox, but rather than having a gearstick and a clutch pedal you have paddles. When you pull a paddle the computer disengages the clutch hydrolically, then the gearbox changes gear, then the clutch is re-engaged. That's what the SS and SSII semi-automatic gearboxes do.
Is that what you are looking for? The only Aston Martin's with a clutch pedal are the full manuals.
The reason people are told to try these is because they work as described above. Some people treat them as a regular auto, don't use the paddles, and expect the car to do all the work. The result is that is is very jerky, as the clutch opens and closes without releasing the throttle.
They are intended to be driven like a manual, coming off the power as the gear is changed and then feeding it back in as it is engaged, with the driver controlling when the changes happen with the paddles. Some people never get on with driving them like that, so either opt for a manual or for a more traditional automatic by getting a DB9. Hence the advice to try it first.
They are intended to be driven like a manual, coming off the power as the gear is changed and then feeding it back in as it is engaged, with the driver controlling when the changes happen with the paddles. Some people never get on with driving them like that, so either opt for a manual or for a more traditional automatic by getting a DB9. Hence the advice to try it first.
murphyaj said:
The reason people are told to try these is because they work as described above. Some people treat them as a regular auto, don't use the paddles, and expect the car to do all the work. The result is that is is very jerky, as the clutch opens and closes without releasing the throttle.
They are intended to be driven like a manual, coming off the power as the gear is changed and then feeding it back in as it is engaged, with the driver controlling when the changes happen with the paddles. Some people never get on with driving them like that, so either opt for a manual or for a more traditional automatic by getting a DB9. Hence the advice to try it first.
Got you. Do all automatic Astons have the semi-automatic/paddles? Or do you have to explicitly look for "Sportshift" to know it is a semi-automatic with paddles?They are intended to be driven like a manual, coming off the power as the gear is changed and then feeding it back in as it is engaged, with the driver controlling when the changes happen with the paddles. Some people never get on with driving them like that, so either opt for a manual or for a more traditional automatic by getting a DB9. Hence the advice to try it first.
oxf88 said:
Got you. Do all automatic Astons have the semi-automatic/paddles? Or do you have to explicitly look for "Sportshift" to know it is a semi-automatic with paddles?
All Vantage models have the option of SportShift as an automated manual gearbox and clutch operation with paddleshift, all other contemporary Gaydon models (DB9, DBS, Rapide, Vanquish) have true auto boxes with paddles. Sport Shift is NOT an automatic! It has no torque-converter, it has the same manual gearbox and same clutch. I went for the best specified car I could find and didn't mind if it were either manual (with clutch pedal) or Sport Shift as I'd driven both. As it turns out I'm glad my particular car is SS and the 'hyper-shift' mode is pretty cool. Drive it as you do any manual and you'll be fine lifting off slightly as you collect a gear the same as you would manual, but in hyper shift you don't need to lift off and it will change quickly. However try and drive it as automatic, then don't bother.
macdeb said:
Sport Shift is NOT an automatic! It has no torque-converter, it has the same manual gearbox and same clutch. I went for the best specified car I could find and didn't mind if it were either manual (with clutch pedal) or Sport Shift as I'd driven both. As it turns out I'm glad my particular car is SS and the 'hyper-shift' mode is pretty cool. Drive it as you do any manual and you'll be fine lifting off slightly as you collect a gear the same as you would manual, but in hyper shift you don't need to lift off and it will change quickly. However try and drive it as automatic, then don't bother.
+1Now that I'm getting used to the SSIII on my V12VS it really is the poodles privates
yellow_tang said:
All Vantage models have the option of SportShift as an automated manual gearbox and clutch operation with paddleshift, all other contemporary Gaydon models (DB9, DBS, Rapide, Vanquish) have true auto boxes with paddles.
Sorry I may have mis-asked and misread this reply.If a V8V is listed as "automatic" does this mean it definitely has SportShift? Only manuals don't have Sportshift?
OFX88 if it has a clutch then it has a manual gearbox.
If it has a torque converter then it has an automatic gearbox.
Not being rude, hopefully just helpful but you appear a bit baffled.
Google them and you will far better understand what you are dealing with.
If it has a torque converter then it has an automatic gearbox.
Not being rude, hopefully just helpful but you appear a bit baffled.
Google them and you will far better understand what you are dealing with.
Edited by F1NDW on Saturday 24th August 21:38
oxf88 said:
..... where you change gear using paddles (as they do in the AMR racing cars) .....
There have been comprehensive answers, but I will just make a comment about the AMR racing cars.
They use a completely different gearbox. An Xtrac six-speed sequential.gearbox.
Amazingly fast gearchanges, but you would not want one in your road car.
JohnG1 said:
Jon39 said:
... An Xtrac six-speed sequential.gearbox.
Amazingly fast gearchanges, but you would not want one in your road car.
I am not a gearbox expert John, but I made the comment because often racing gearboxes have straight cut gears for strength reasons, and hence very noisy for use in a road car.
Perhaps someone can explain. Does a sequential gearbox select the next upward and downward gear in advance, to be ready for the next very fast gearchange. The theory of course being, reducing the time when no power is reaching the road.
Jon39 said:
I am not a gearbox expert John, but I made the comment because often racing gearboxes have straight cut gears for strength reasons, and hence very noisy for use in a road car.
Perhaps someone can explain. Does a sequential gearbox select the next upward and downward gear in advance, to be ready for the next very fast gearchange. The theory of course being, reducing the time when no power is reaching the road.
Dual clutch gearboxes aren’t allowed in most forms of motor racing, even F1 uses the same single clutch AMT technology but nowadays has separate actuators for adjacent gears and sensors to ‘learn’ the rotational positions of the dogs on each gear so that the new gear can be engaged milliseconds after the old one is disengaged.
one could try to summarize:
Manual gear boxes: traditional H-pattern gear lever or gear stick used to change from one gear through the neutral position into any other gear. A clutch is needed to disengage torque transmission for the time of gear shifting, a few 10th of a second.
Careful: semi-automated versions exist, like in the old Renault Twingo Easy, which had an automated clutch but still used a gear stick,
or the V8V sport shift, which uses an automated clutch and automated hydraulic gear shifting initiated by paddles. Still considered to be a manual gear box, despite the fact that it could be driven in full auto mode (nobody would do this?).
Special manual gear box is the sequential gear box used in most motorcycles and many race cars. You go from one gear directly to either the next higher or the next lower gear, practically without the neutral step in between. You don´t need to use the clutch, it would be sufficient to close gas / fuel injection or ignition for a fraction of a second (could be done electronically). Shifting is faster, torque transmission is interrupted for less time, so that is valuable for racing. But forget this for road use since there is no smooth shifting. Each gear shift is extremely harsh and rude for the mechanical components (and the passenger). Highest wear and tear, most expensive material. Works with paddles (or a two directional gear stick) in a car. The clutch is needed for starting.
True auto box: uses a traditional torque converter for the shifting procedure, or in modern auto boxes a multi clutch pack to do the same work a torque converter did - just faster, lighter and with less slip.
Most modern Aston Martin use a ZF auto box (Vanquish, DBSS, DB9, new Vantage, Rapide). True manuals with gear stick had been available in the Vantage V12V and the V8V (and early DBS and DB9?) and semi automated "SportShift" manuals were available in the Gaydon Vantage V12V and the V8V - questionably labeled as "auto" in some classifieds. The 2005 - 2018 Vantage was never available with a true auto box.
Another type not used in any Aston Martin is a dual clutch system using two drive shafts and two clutches, one drive shaft for the gears 1,3,5,7 and the other for the gears 2,4,6. Porsche 911 and many other cars... Paddle shifting or fully automated shifting possible.
Manual gear boxes: traditional H-pattern gear lever or gear stick used to change from one gear through the neutral position into any other gear. A clutch is needed to disengage torque transmission for the time of gear shifting, a few 10th of a second.
Careful: semi-automated versions exist, like in the old Renault Twingo Easy, which had an automated clutch but still used a gear stick,
or the V8V sport shift, which uses an automated clutch and automated hydraulic gear shifting initiated by paddles. Still considered to be a manual gear box, despite the fact that it could be driven in full auto mode (nobody would do this?).
Special manual gear box is the sequential gear box used in most motorcycles and many race cars. You go from one gear directly to either the next higher or the next lower gear, practically without the neutral step in between. You don´t need to use the clutch, it would be sufficient to close gas / fuel injection or ignition for a fraction of a second (could be done electronically). Shifting is faster, torque transmission is interrupted for less time, so that is valuable for racing. But forget this for road use since there is no smooth shifting. Each gear shift is extremely harsh and rude for the mechanical components (and the passenger). Highest wear and tear, most expensive material. Works with paddles (or a two directional gear stick) in a car. The clutch is needed for starting.
True auto box: uses a traditional torque converter for the shifting procedure, or in modern auto boxes a multi clutch pack to do the same work a torque converter did - just faster, lighter and with less slip.
Most modern Aston Martin use a ZF auto box (Vanquish, DBSS, DB9, new Vantage, Rapide). True manuals with gear stick had been available in the Vantage V12V and the V8V (and early DBS and DB9?) and semi automated "SportShift" manuals were available in the Gaydon Vantage V12V and the V8V - questionably labeled as "auto" in some classifieds. The 2005 - 2018 Vantage was never available with a true auto box.
Another type not used in any Aston Martin is a dual clutch system using two drive shafts and two clutches, one drive shaft for the gears 1,3,5,7 and the other for the gears 2,4,6. Porsche 911 and many other cars... Paddle shifting or fully automated shifting possible.
Thank you Chris and Theo for your very comprehensive explanations.
OP should be pleased. Every question answered I think.
You referred to the modern version of torque converter gearboxes as being a multi clutch pack.
Are AML using these yet, or are the ZF auto boxes all torque converters ?
Jon, to be honest, I am not sure.
Here you can see a Mercedes-AMG multi clutch system replacing a torque converter (a picture is better than any description):
https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instanc...
The ZF 8HP 75 (which I believe is the one the DB11 and Vantage is using) has clutch packages to engage / control the planetary gear sets. But that is a different place / part of the box. The ZF boxes have additional clutch systems to decouple the integrated starter / electric / hybrid modules. Up to now I believe that the ZF boxes still have a torque converter, simply because of the name / technical abbreviation: ZF 8HP means 8-Speed Hydraulic converter and Planetary gear sets. This hydraulic element is the "torque converter"...
Here you can see a Mercedes-AMG multi clutch system replacing a torque converter (a picture is better than any description):
https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instanc...
The ZF 8HP 75 (which I believe is the one the DB11 and Vantage is using) has clutch packages to engage / control the planetary gear sets. But that is a different place / part of the box. The ZF boxes have additional clutch systems to decouple the integrated starter / electric / hybrid modules. Up to now I believe that the ZF boxes still have a torque converter, simply because of the name / technical abbreviation: ZF 8HP means 8-Speed Hydraulic converter and Planetary gear sets. This hydraulic element is the "torque converter"...
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