V8 Vantage manual transmission but with paddle shifters?

V8 Vantage manual transmission but with paddle shifters?

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Discussion

oxf88

Original Poster:

44 posts

55 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
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Is it possible to have a V8 Vantage "manual" transmission, where you change gear using paddles (as they do in the AMR racing cars) and NOT via the clutch pedal?

From reading around I got the impression if I want to use paddle shifters then this is not a manual and I am forced to have a semi-automatic via SSI, SSII, SSIII (which apparently have some weird quirks with usage)

I am aiming this question at V8 Vantage S, N430, GT8, AMR (not the 4.3 and not the new Vantage)

If this isn't available as standard, is it something which could be changed on a car (Bamford Rose etc)?



murphyaj

610 posts

74 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
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None of the automatic or semi-automatic aston martins have a clutch pedal (which is a defining point of an automatic as far as I know). The have a clutch (the bit that disconnects the gearbox from the engine), but no clutch pedal.

The V8 Vantage S auto has a robotically operated manual transmission, with a robotically operated clutch. That means it is a conventional manual gearbox, but rather than having a gearstick and a clutch pedal you have paddles. When you pull a paddle the computer disengages the clutch hydrolically, then the gearbox changes gear, then the clutch is re-engaged. That's what the SS and SSII semi-automatic gearboxes do.

Is that what you are looking for? The only Aston Martin's with a clutch pedal are the full manuals.

oxf88

Original Poster:

44 posts

55 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
quotequote all
murphyaj said:
None of the automatic or semi-automatic aston martins have a clutch pedal (which is a defining point of an automatic as far as I know). The have a clutch (the bit that disconnects the gearbox from the engine), but no clutch pedal.

The V8 Vantage S auto has a robotically operated manual transmission, with a robotically operated clutch. That means it is a conventional manual gearbox, but rather than having a gearstick and a clutch pedal you have paddles. When you pull a paddle the computer disengages the clutch hydrolically, then the gearbox changes gear, then the clutch is re-engaged. That's what the SS and SSII semi-automatic gearboxes do.

Is that what you are looking for? The only Aston Martin's with a clutch pedal are the full manuals.
Okay, thank you for this. So it sounds like what I am after is what SSI, SSII and SSIII actually do. The reason I asked is because I have read so many weird tales where people are warned to try these out before buying due to all sorts of quirks, which made me think it wasn't equivalent to a manual +shifters.

murphyaj

610 posts

74 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
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The reason people are told to try these is because they work as described above. Some people treat them as a regular auto, don't use the paddles, and expect the car to do all the work. The result is that is is very jerky, as the clutch opens and closes without releasing the throttle.

They are intended to be driven like a manual, coming off the power as the gear is changed and then feeding it back in as it is engaged, with the driver controlling when the changes happen with the paddles. Some people never get on with driving them like that, so either opt for a manual or for a more traditional automatic by getting a DB9. Hence the advice to try it first.

oxf88

Original Poster:

44 posts

55 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
quotequote all
murphyaj said:
The reason people are told to try these is because they work as described above. Some people treat them as a regular auto, don't use the paddles, and expect the car to do all the work. The result is that is is very jerky, as the clutch opens and closes without releasing the throttle.

They are intended to be driven like a manual, coming off the power as the gear is changed and then feeding it back in as it is engaged, with the driver controlling when the changes happen with the paddles. Some people never get on with driving them like that, so either opt for a manual or for a more traditional automatic by getting a DB9. Hence the advice to try it first.
Got you. Do all automatic Astons have the semi-automatic/paddles? Or do you have to explicitly look for "Sportshift" to know it is a semi-automatic with paddles?

yellow_tang

365 posts

210 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
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oxf88 said:
Got you. Do all automatic Astons have the semi-automatic/paddles? Or do you have to explicitly look for "Sportshift" to know it is a semi-automatic with paddles?
All Vantage models have the option of SportShift as an automated manual gearbox and clutch operation with paddleshift, all other contemporary Gaydon models (DB9, DBS, Rapide, Vanquish) have true auto boxes with paddles.

macdeb

8,492 posts

254 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
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shout Sport Shift is NOT an automatic! shout It has no torque-converter, it has the same manual gearbox and same clutch. I went for the best specified car I could find and didn't mind if it were either manual (with clutch pedal) or Sport Shift as I'd driven both. As it turns out I'm glad my particular car is SS and the 'hyper-shift' mode is pretty cool. Drive it as you do any manual and you'll be fine lifting off slightly as you collect a gear the same as you would manual, but in hyper shift you don't need to lift off and it will change quickly. However try and drive it as automatic, then don't bother. driving

LordBretSinclair

4,285 posts

176 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
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macdeb said:
shout Sport Shift is NOT an automatic! shout It has no torque-converter, it has the same manual gearbox and same clutch. I went for the best specified car I could find and didn't mind if it were either manual (with clutch pedal) or Sport Shift as I'd driven both. As it turns out I'm glad my particular car is SS and the 'hyper-shift' mode is pretty cool. Drive it as you do any manual and you'll be fine lifting off slightly as you collect a gear the same as you would manual, but in hyper shift you don't need to lift off and it will change quickly. However try and drive it as automatic, then don't bother. driving
+1
Now that I'm getting used to the SSIII on my V12VS it really is the poodles privates smile

oxf88

Original Poster:

44 posts

55 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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yellow_tang said:
All Vantage models have the option of SportShift as an automated manual gearbox and clutch operation with paddleshift, all other contemporary Gaydon models (DB9, DBS, Rapide, Vanquish) have true auto boxes with paddles.
Sorry I may have mis-asked and misread this reply.

If a V8V is listed as "automatic" does this mean it definitely has SportShift? Only manuals don't have Sportshift?

macdeb

8,492 posts

254 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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PH listings on this subject annoy the hell out of me. AML do not list the Vantage SS an automatic and it is very mis-leading imho. banghead

bullet7

299 posts

101 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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oxf88 said:
Sorry I may have mis-asked and misread this reply.

If a V8V is listed as "automatic" does this mean it definitely has SportShift? Only manuals don't have Sportshift?
Yes. If it doesn't have a gear lever, then it's a sportshift.

F1NDW

359 posts

150 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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OFX88 if it has a clutch then it has a manual gearbox.
If it has a torque converter then it has an automatic gearbox.
Not being rude, hopefully just helpful but you appear a bit baffled.
Google them and you will far better understand what you are dealing with.

Edited by F1NDW on Saturday 24th August 21:38

Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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oxf88 said:
..... where you change gear using paddles (as they do in the AMR racing cars) .....

There have been comprehensive answers, but I will just make a comment about the AMR racing cars.

They use a completely different gearbox. An Xtrac six-speed sequential.gearbox.

Amazingly fast gearchanges, but you would not want one in your road car.

JohnG1

3,462 posts

204 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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Jon39 said:

... An Xtrac six-speed sequential.gearbox.

Amazingly fast gearchanges, but you would not want one in your road car.
Why? Is it a dog box? Or just a super harsh binary clutch implementation? Or something else?

Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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JohnG1 said:
Jon39 said:

... An Xtrac six-speed sequential.gearbox.

Amazingly fast gearchanges, but you would not want one in your road car.
Why? Is it a dog box? Or just a super harsh binary clutch implementation? Or something else?

I am not a gearbox expert John, but I made the comment because often racing gearboxes have straight cut gears for strength reasons, and hence very noisy for use in a road car.

Perhaps someone can explain. Does a sequential gearbox select the next upward and downward gear in advance, to be ready for the next very fast gearchange. The theory of course being, reducing the time when no power is reaching the road.








chrisch77

615 posts

74 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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Jon39 said:

I am not a gearbox expert John, but I made the comment because often racing gearboxes have straight cut gears for strength reasons, and hence very noisy for use in a road car.

Perhaps someone can explain. Does a sequential gearbox select the next upward and downward gear in advance, to be ready for the next very fast gearchange. The theory of course being, reducing the time when no power is reaching the road.

A racing sequential gearbox has straight cut gears (noisy) and dog engagement rather than synchronisers to engage the gears. It still has only a single clutch unlike a road going DCT, so the next gear cannot be pre-selected, however it is capable of banging in the next gear (when upshifting) without needing to use the clutch; a switch in the gear lever activates a momentary ignition cut of the engine to unload the dogs driving the current gear so they can be brought out of mesh, then the new gear dogs are brought into mesh so the drive is taken up with a bang rather that having any smoothing provided by a (friction) clutch re-engagement. A similar thing happens during downshifts but the driver has to time a throttle blip to unload the current gear dogs to initiate the shift along with movement of the gear lever.

Dual clutch gearboxes aren’t allowed in most forms of motor racing, even F1 uses the same single clutch AMT technology but nowadays has separate actuators for adjacent gears and sensors to ‘learn’ the rotational positions of the dogs on each gear so that the new gear can be engaged milliseconds after the old one is disengaged.

Nbgring

152 posts

122 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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one could try to summarize:
Manual gear boxes: traditional H-pattern gear lever or gear stick used to change from one gear through the neutral position into any other gear. A clutch is needed to disengage torque transmission for the time of gear shifting, a few 10th of a second.
Careful: semi-automated versions exist, like in the old Renault Twingo Easy, which had an automated clutch but still used a gear stick,
or the V8V sport shift, which uses an automated clutch and automated hydraulic gear shifting initiated by paddles. Still considered to be a manual gear box, despite the fact that it could be driven in full auto mode (nobody would do this?).
Special manual gear box is the sequential gear box used in most motorcycles and many race cars. You go from one gear directly to either the next higher or the next lower gear, practically without the neutral step in between. You don´t need to use the clutch, it would be sufficient to close gas / fuel injection or ignition for a fraction of a second (could be done electronically). Shifting is faster, torque transmission is interrupted for less time, so that is valuable for racing. But forget this for road use since there is no smooth shifting. Each gear shift is extremely harsh and rude for the mechanical components (and the passenger). Highest wear and tear, most expensive material. Works with paddles (or a two directional gear stick) in a car. The clutch is needed for starting.
True auto box: uses a traditional torque converter for the shifting procedure, or in modern auto boxes a multi clutch pack to do the same work a torque converter did - just faster, lighter and with less slip.
Most modern Aston Martin use a ZF auto box (Vanquish, DBSS, DB9, new Vantage, Rapide). True manuals with gear stick had been available in the Vantage V12V and the V8V (and early DBS and DB9?) and semi automated "SportShift" manuals were available in the Gaydon Vantage V12V and the V8V - questionably labeled as "auto" in some classifieds. The 2005 - 2018 Vantage was never available with a true auto box.
Another type not used in any Aston Martin is a dual clutch system using two drive shafts and two clutches, one drive shaft for the gears 1,3,5,7 and the other for the gears 2,4,6. Porsche 911 and many other cars... Paddle shifting or fully automated shifting possible.

Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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Thank you Chris and Theo for your very comprehensive explanations.
OP should be pleased. Every question answered I think.

You referred to the modern version of torque converter gearboxes as being a multi clutch pack.
Are AML using these yet, or are the ZF auto boxes all torque converters ?



Nbgring

152 posts

122 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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Jon, to be honest, I am not sure.
Here you can see a Mercedes-AMG multi clutch system replacing a torque converter (a picture is better than any description):
https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instanc...
The ZF 8HP 75 (which I believe is the one the DB11 and Vantage is using) has clutch packages to engage / control the planetary gear sets. But that is a different place / part of the box. The ZF boxes have additional clutch systems to decouple the integrated starter / electric / hybrid modules. Up to now I believe that the ZF boxes still have a torque converter, simply because of the name / technical abbreviation: ZF 8HP means 8-Speed Hydraulic converter and Planetary gear sets. This hydraulic element is the "torque converter"...

geresey

388 posts

122 months

Friday 30th August 2019
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I read somewhere that Sports Shift users should "reset the clutch" before every drive. No idea what this could mean as I've never driven one, and never heard of it anywhere before so intrigued... can anyone enlighten me?