Why are AM's core products not selling?

Why are AM's core products not selling?

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Discussion

S1-NOS

114 posts

75 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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DB9VolanteDriver said:
Because the complaint is not about the engine’s performance, it’s about its provenance. I’m sure the engine is great, but that does not matter for some, including me.
Provenance ? The engine was based on a Jag V8 and it has an Italian gearbox. Anyway, not wanting to get into an argument !

AstonV

1,563 posts

105 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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S1-NOS said:
As for the youtubers running down British companies to get a few clicks / pennies, when people's livelihoods are on the line....
I don't remember any youtuber running down the DB11 or new Vantage? Quite the opposite, they raved about them.

Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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AstonV said:
S1-NOS said:
As for the youtubers running down British companies to get a few clicks / pennies, when people's livelihoods are on the line....
I don't remember any youtuber running down the DB11 or new Vantage? Quite the opposite, they raved about them.

Exactly.

This is why the Russian DB11 review, recently brought to our attention, was so peculiar. The DB11 was criticised throughout, which we had never heard before.

The reviewer did say, the dealer would not lend him any cars, but he was able to borrow one from an owner, so perhaps there is a clue, as to why almost every car review is always complimentary. wink



Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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Bobajobbob said:
I was never a big fan of the front of the DB10 however I still prefer it over new Vantage because they managed to avoid the panel gap across the nose which is one of the features of the new Vantage that has always compromised the aesthetics for me.

If you start with a 4.7 Vantage (the DB 10 is a manual 4.7 under the skin, take a look from the rear three-quarters), the shape of the bonnet is already made.
Join that to form one piece with the wings and you have just about got the DB10 front upper shape, with a complete absence of panel gaps.


AstonV

1,563 posts

105 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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Jon39 said:

Exactly.

This is why the Russian DB11 review, recently brought to our attention, was so peculiar. The DB11 was criticised throughout, which we had never heard before.

The reviewer did say, the dealer would not lend him any cars, but he was able to borrow one from an owner, so perhaps there is a clue, as to why almost every car review is always complimentary. wink


I didn't take that guy too seriously. Just thought it was funny and actually some good video. It was almost like one of those bad lip reading videos. Besides we all know how great Russian made automobiles have been.

Octavarium

547 posts

106 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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Jon39 said:

Exactly.

This is why the Russian DB11 review, recently brought to our attention, was so peculiar. The DB11 was criticised throughout, which we had never heard before.

The reviewer did say, the dealer would not lend him any cars, but he was able to borrow one from an owner, so perhaps there is a clue, as to why almost every car review is always complimentary. wink


With regards to Aston's current range of cars, another clue as to the mainly complimentary reviews, is that they are in fact very, very good cars. We know that their looks, Vantage especially, are divisive, and in their current guise that is unlikely to change anytime soon. People can and will disagree about that and Aston's choice of engine ad infinitum, but there is no doubt that they are superb vehicles.

RichB

51,431 posts

283 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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S1-NOS said:
I feel sympathy for Aston in some ways - they branched off in a new direction and made DB10 for the Bond film. Everyone said "it's amazing" (I didn't like the front personally) which gave them the belief they had a winner and pressed on with the new Vantage. Then it came out and people said "its ugly" etc. That must have been rather frustrating after all that time and effort...
The front of the DB10 bears little resemblance to the new Vantage, so I don't really get your point. If they thought they had a winner with the DB10 they should have made a production version of that.

Like you I didn't particularly like teh nose of the DB10, it was already displaying Reichman's obsession with sharks and hunters.

Edited by RichB on Friday 10th July 18:21

Bobajobbob

1,408 posts

95 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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Jon39 said:

If you start with a 4.7 Vantage (the DB 10 is a manual 4.7 under the skin, take a look from the rear three-quarters), the shape of the bonnet is already made.
Join that to form one piece with the wings and you have just about got the DB10 front upper shape, with a complete absence of panel gaps.


I assume that the gapless DB10 front end was only possible on what was a production special and the compromises we see in the new Vantage down to cost of manufacturing and practicalities like opening the bonnet.

The clamshell bonnet on the DB11 is its strongest feature for me and it’s a shame they couldn’t do the same on a smaller scale for the new Vantage.

RichB

51,431 posts

283 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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Bobajobbob said:
I assume that the gapless DB10 front end was only possible on what was a production special...
The DB10 was based on the V8Vantage

Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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Octavarium said:
Jon39 said:

Exactly.

This is why the Russian DB11 review, recently brought to our attention, was so peculiar. The DB11 was criticised throughout, which we had never heard before.

The reviewer did say, the dealer would not lend him any cars, but he was able to borrow one from an owner, so perhaps there is a clue, as to why almost every car review is always complimentary. wink


With regards to Aston's current range of cars, another clue as to the mainly complimentary reviews, is that they are in fact very, very good cars. We know that their looks, Vantage especially, are divisive, and in their current guise that is unlikely to change anytime soon. People can and will disagree about that and Aston's choice of engine ad infinitum, but there is no doubt that they are superb vehicles.

I agree with you Octavarium. Very, very good cars, but unfortunately with poor sales compared to their predecessors.
As many have now described on this topic, most Aston Martin buyers are perhaps unusual in the whole car market place, by putting beautiful looks as their very first priority. Any doubts on that aspect and it doesn't matter how good the engineering is.

I was having a slight pop at the reviewers of all cars who, as JC has openly explained, can instantly be dropped from new car launch first class jollies, if they upset a manufacturer.




Bobajobbob

1,408 posts

95 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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RichB said:
The DB10 was based on the V8Vantage
Yes I know. It was a Vantage with custom panels/bodywork which I assume could not be replicated on a production car thus the clean front end on the DB10 and the panel gaps on the new Vantage.

Mr.Tremlini

1,460 posts

100 months

Friday 10th July 2020
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Jon39 said:

As many have now described on this topic, most Aston Martin buyers are perhaps unusual in the whole car market place, by putting beautiful looks as their very first priority. Any doubts on that aspect and it doesn't matter how good the engineering is.
I`m on this page Jon, certainly looks were what drew me in firstly, sound too, then the provenance which carries meaning for me and the stories of it`s history as we have already touched on in your other thread, "Aston Martin is a unique and special business" - and this sums it up in a lot of ways. I`m sure this is an AML cliche from many years gone by, however, you go into purchase knowing that the car has been reviewed favourably but with a few niggles and foibles, and it has been clearly pointed out that there are better cars, often for less money, but you push all that aside because the look, sound and vibe of the Aston is what ticks your subconscious motivation boxes. I won`t lie, the Bond connection does it no harm either.

The down side`s to the cars are usually the typical "not as dynamic at 9/10ths" or "power delivery struggles to match the Italian thoroughbreds" etc, but we know that, and buy the car anyway, because it looks jaw-droppingly stunning, to us. I appreciate the engineering prowess of Porsche, the delicate dance of the Ferrari, but they just don`t float my boat like the Astons. I am an enthusiastic driver but I am not Fernando Alonso, I don`t wish to drag the last percentage of performance and handling from a car to compare it to others, I will never 100% exploit the full potential of the car I own, and nor do I care.

The new generation Astons start to address some dynamic issues that one could argue afflicted the VH cars, and they are, by all reports, extremely capable, but again in the case of Vantage despite it`s polarising looks, "not quite a 911" so you are still not the cutting edge, and the looks are divisive, and the subconscious motivation is no longer there, it`s been replaced by a spec sheet. I don`t have the 4.0L Vantage hate like many do, I like the car, it is a joy to drive, but it ain`t no work of art. Sure I would own one, but not at the expense of my current VH car.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 11th July 2020
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The quintessential British car maker Aston Martin got it wrong putting a German engine in it's cars.

Ex Boy Racer

1,151 posts

191 months

Saturday 11th July 2020
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In my opinion, the management from AP onwards simply did not understand the brand. Aston Martins had a sort of indefinable something, and that gave their owners pleasure in strange ways.
Little touches like the enamel badges under the bonnet, leather hooks on the seats to protect the leather from the seatbelts, the solid aluminium fuel caps. Things that made owners feel warm about the cars but that those not in the know would roll their eyes at; I'm sure everyone here knows what I am talking about.
All of these things were removed under AP's reign, along with many other details, to become optional extras or just be gone forever.
This lack of understanding is hugely noticeable on the new cars. They are all brilliant to drive but they just don't have that 'Aston Martin' personality and don't make me want one.
Excuses were made that 'a new type of customer' was being sought. History is littered with companies that decided they wanted to fish in another pool and found it was not an easy task.
Fact is, every car is now better than it needs to be. Personally, if the 911 'rotated' more predictably through a hairpin at 90mph it was not something that really bothered me. My Vantage was fast enough and capable enough. Still is. What I want from an AM product is for it to be recognisably one.
The new models just aren't.

8Speed

726 posts

65 months

Saturday 11th July 2020
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Ex Boy Racer said:
In my opinion, the management from AP onwards simply did not understand the brand. Aston Martins had a sort of indefinable something, and that gave their owners pleasure in strange ways.
Little touches like the enamel badges under the bonnet, leather hooks on the seats to protect the leather from the seatbelts, the solid aluminium fuel caps. Things that made owners feel warm about the cars but that those not in the know would roll their eyes at; I'm sure everyone here knows what I am talking about.
All of these things were removed under AP's reign, along with many other details, to become optional extras or just be gone forever.
This lack of understanding is hugely noticeable on the new cars. They are all brilliant to drive but they just don't have that 'Aston Martin' personality and don't make me want one.
Excuses were made that 'a new type of customer' was being sought. History is littered with companies that decided they wanted to fish in another pool and found it was not an easy task.
Fact is, every car is now better than it needs to be. Personally, if the 911 'rotated' more predictably through a hairpin at 90mph it was not something that really bothered me. My Vantage was fast enough and capable enough. Still is. What I want from an AM product is for it to be recognisably one.
The new models just aren't.
I agree.

ReformedPistonhead

965 posts

136 months

Saturday 11th July 2020
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I agree with almost all that has been said. I have had 3 AM’s in the last 10 years, still have a V12VSM but have no desire for a new Vantage, DB11 or DBS at all. DBX maybe.

But for me the Mercedes V8 is the real upset.

911’s have distinctive engines.
Lambo’s have distinctive engines.
Ferrari’s have distinctive engines.
AM’s now have the same engine you can get in a C-Class, E-Class, S-Class, AMG GT, etc etc etc.

It may be a great engine but it is not a differentiating engine and honestly having driven many cars with it in it is a bit brutal and doesn’t sing like the old AM V12 or even the old AM V8. That 4.0 V8 Turbo format is in so many things (my old RS6 Performance as well) that it just doesn’t work at this price point.

There is a good reason Audi left the R8 with the V10 in it when that V8 4.0T can make more power and torque. It sings and moves the soul at full chat.

I am not saying they should have stuck with the “old Ford” engines but I do think that when they have their “own” V6 in there it will bring back some differentiation, hopefully.

I may buy a DBX but I will wait until their Hybrid V6 turns up.

Just my 10 cents ;-)


Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Saturday 11th July 2020
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Almost all of the above contributors now seem to share the same opinion, on the likely reasons for disappointing sales.

Compare that to the early days of the New Vantage topic, which went on for hundreds of pages.
Amazing how it was so obvious to a minority (possibly others were too polite to reveal their true thoughts) but not to the management of AML.

A few people were brave enough to really say what they thought. Here is one of the early contributions which I found from November 2017. Ian could obviously see trouble coming.

Ian_UK1 said:
I really hope this is just someone taking the p*ss and the real, new Vantage will be revealed later.

Side-view: looks like the car's back has broken.
Rear view: far too much going-on, completely incoherent.
Front view: whoever designed that should have left the job to his Guide Dog.
Interior: Mix of Merc. & old-school TVR - in a bad way.

Dreadful.

The replies to dissenters tended to be along the lines of:- the UK market is only a fraction of Aston Martin worldwide and PH forum members represent an even smaller proportion. Their opinions are of little value.

There have been some very articulate contributions here. Would have thought far more valuable to AML, than focus group material.




Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 11th July 14:14

AstonV

1,563 posts

105 months

Saturday 11th July 2020
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Well with luck they can steer the Titanic around the iceberg this time.

DB9VolanteDriver

2,612 posts

175 months

Saturday 11th July 2020
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I noticed a new post was made today under the owner’s roll call sticky. What I found very telling was there were only 8 new Vantages and 9 DB11s listed vs hundreds of the previous gen cars listed. I realize that the time scales are quite different, but the lack of owners posting about their new gen cars says everything about how they have been a disastrous flop for AM.

Viahuerto

162 posts

60 months

Sunday 12th July 2020
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NFC 85 Vette said:
Customer care and after-sales, I would say have a 90% positive feedback rate - there's relatively few poor showings on that front. Of course the influencers only need to recite one anecdote about a bad customer experience, and proclaim it's representative of the entire brand. It happened with McLaren, and did them no favours whatsover; Aston Martin appears to the next firm in the sights for similar treatment, which is a shame. When a car company is struggling to stay afloat or post strong sales figures - having mud thrown at them doesn't help. As per the name, influencers have a habit of being influential to prospective buyers, and if they make enough negative noise, it puts buyers off. The company then is fighting against negative press, and trying to sell cars to people who have it in their head that the products and customer service are awful.

The truth is that the cars are fundamentally superb, well appointed and offer great performance, but the interior styling of everything bar the DBX has been a misfire, and the exterior styling of the Vantage deviated too far from the safe path for existing owners to want to upgrade (some also find the DB11 and DBS to be 'hideous', but overall they don't polarize opinion as much).

Pricing often crops up as an issue, but when you adjust for inflation, Vantage for example, costs no more than the old one did - the problem Aston Martin has always faced though, is the life cycles of the cars are much longer than other car makers, and if you aren't offering massive overhauls during the life of a car, it's unreasonable to charge more year on year.

The net effect is when you then do launch a brand new car, there's a price hike - Porsche, Ferrari and co get away with it because of the shorter life spans and incremental price increases. The other issue is the expectation that a Vantage which is produced in numbers of less than (probably) 5000 per annum is expected to be sold for the same price as a 992 which will be produced at close to 40,000 per annum. It's simply more expensive to build an Aston, it always has been, and if you're not mass producing them, you need larger margins (Porsche have nailed this where the 911 is the highest margin car on the planet in terms of what it costs to build vs what it's sold for).

December's 'sale' to clear the decks of existing Vantage stock was the first move initiated by Stroll to strengthen residual values, and make the current lineup more of a built-to-order situation. It's difficult to sell new cars when sub-1500 mile examples for £30k less are sat a few feet away. At this moment in time, if you want a Vantage, there's relatively few available, and that's good news for residuals, and means if you want one, you need to be prepared to pay for it.

The styling issues (internally) will be resolved in the near future, and something like a DBX inspired interior with current MBUX should find its way into the Vantage, DB11 and DBS. The yardstick at present is the Conti GT for interior styling and infotainment integration. If they can top that, it'll work - and the DBX interior was the first sign of where it's heading, now the design team are getting into their stride. The engine in the Vantage and DB11 V8 is of course being superseded by the TM01 V6 - for two reasons; firstly the dislike of farming out for engines, and also that AMG's path is heading heavily down the downsizing route, and I don't believe Aston owners are yet ready to embrace a 4 cylinder hybrid...

Since lock-down measures were lifted and UK dealerships have re-opened, they've been busier than perhaps ever. Orders for DBS, Vantage and DBX have been good. Of course the quarterly results wont reflect that because of 3 months of being closed, but the tide has turned, the ship's heading in the right direction, and it's beginning to look up.

The so called vanity projects - Valkyrie, Valhalla and Vanquish, I don't believe will be canned. Stroll looks upon them very fondly, and in a way you could see his view of what he wants to do, as a parallel of Lamborghini wanting to take on Ferrari. It's quite personal for him, and he wants Aston Martin to really stick it to Ferrari, and the foundation to do so was already laid before he came in. The partnership with Red Bull and what was learnt on Valkyrie will feed into subsequent cars, and I expect as will be witnessed late this year, Valkyrie's not just a good first attempt at a proper hypercar, it'll be a new line in the sand.

I wouldn't expect any more condos, speed boats, submarines, helicopters or motorcycles - Stroll wants to get back to basics, and build Aston Martin cars. Moers is an unknown quantity at this point; he did a great job at AMG, so it shouldn't be a disaster. What's often forgotten though is how much Palmer achieved in a relatively short space of time (because there's more to it than the IPO failing). DBX for example, the factory and the car, from concept to production in less time that Lambo took for the Urus, when it had the entire VAG parts bin at its disposal. For a small volume company, Aston's becoming remarkably agile.

Aston's making some superb cars, that just need a bit of refining and tweaking to make them all things to all owners. It just needs a year or so for it to become visible. However, because the controversial, provocative YouTube content gets good views, I wouldn't expect the negativity to die down anytime soon.
As a recent convert to Aston from Porsche I agree with you wholeheartedly. I got my Vantage AMR (7spd manual) at the end of December in California. I got an enormous discount on the car which brought the price point in line with a Porsche 992 version 911S. I'm 8 months into a 24 month lease and I'd love to re-up and even commit to a longer term with another Vantage but, as you mention, I'd love to see a nice interior tweak that brings the car up into the current world. The plastic Navi screen feels like a "kit car" add on and I'd hope there could be a subtle fix to this. As I have one of the first manual transmission versions out I'd say the gate/ feel of the lever is a little off putting. Less so the dogleg part which I've found very easy to adapt to. It's just the gear shifter doesn't allow me the kind of telepathic connection I used to have with my 911 cars. Don't get me wrong, the car has it's great moments but there are also times, usually in twisty canyons, when I find myself in "What the heck gear am I in mode". or worse, at times the shifter won't properly engage/ stay in 1st unless I really jam it in. I live with these little foibles and have grown fond of the car regardless because it drives like stink and has a character and heart that the 911 is missing. In any event I'm only a few months away from making a decision on a new car. I flirted with the idea of a 718 GTS 4.0 but I'm too tall and really it comes back to 911 vs Vantage. I'd love it if Aston can finesse the car just a bit. As far as sales/ service I've found the service part to be pretty good.... they do what they promise when they promise and there hasn't been much to deal with. Sales service was appallingly bad (snooty and hapless at the same time) but in a way they so alienated me that I just got fed up and offered a very low number for the car. Who knew? They took my offer!!!!!