Bamford Rose Clutch and Flywheel Upgrade
Discussion
drt30 said:
Am I right in thinking there is no point in doing this in a sportshift 1 v8v?
From what I've seen and read, there is every point in putting a twin-plate clutch in a SportShift, whether SSI or SSII.Mike has a BR video that touches on this topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgrUBWX2Qog
from about 2:00 if you don't want to watch the whole thing. In fact, Mike actually says he thinks an SSII with twin-plate is better than a manual.
Also, in a recent AMOC Q&A on the Vantage, Peter Martin of Martin; a Scottish independent Aston Martin Specialist covers this topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSkWG0UMDro
starts at 7:00. He gets into clutches at 11:00 onwards. He specifically comments on the twin-plate in an SS at 15:30.
I'm definitely planning to go twin-plate when the clutch on my SSII finally calls "uncle". I will research a little more the alleged small increase in perceived gear chatter some report, but I think that would be a small price to pay if it happens.
edited to add
I found another BR video where Mike talks about the twin-plate clutch, its origins, why the V8V has a single plate and fitting a twin plate to a SportShift
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfqHrr4A2Qk
starts at 5:36 until 15:30. Worth a watch.
Edited by LTP on Sunday 21st February 16:33
Tremelune said:
Are the differences in the various clutches detailed anywhere? I assumed the VelocityAP, AMR, and BR parts were all designed by David Appleby Engineering and were thus pretty much the same.
The clutch used by all is essentially the V12V clutch but the flywheels are all different and have different weights but I don't have the figures. Whatever you do, don't let Mike from BR hear you say that DAE designed Bamford Rose's flywheel 
. Without wanting to seem rude I'm not sure that DAE design any of the parts that they sell whereas BR do. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong but I think most of the parts sold by DAE are Velocity AP kit.WoW DAE definitely do not design them for BR! They are a Velocity authorised seller there are many minor differences in all the parts offered and attention to detail can sometimes be the marginal gain. With Mike having been pat the original engine design team he got the nod from me and very happy with the choice I made.
V8V Pete said:
Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong .....
Like I said, I'm happy to be corrected and James Appleby has corrected me via email so here is his correction for the record (reproduced with his permission):"We at DAE design and make lots of Aston bits here. Alongside selling OEM Aston parts and being VelocityAP European distributor.
Adding more parts all the time such as the new Nitron dampers we've designed in conjunction with them and replacement higher quality ASM feed pipes which get launched next week.
The clutch kits we sell are ones we have a flywheel manufacturer machine for us from billet and it’s paired with OEM twin plate clutch and release bearing. This design we’ve been fitting for 8-9 years. We also supply the VelocityAP product for customers who want it but it would work out more expensive."
Incognegro said:
drt30 said:
Am I right in thinking there is no point in doing this in a sportshift 1 v8v?
No mate... definitely do it!I upgraded to the BR Twinplate clutch and wow makes a significant difference. If/When your clutch goes, go for it!
from a bit more research, this is what I have been able to find (although I am not sure if these are accurate) on each package's weight reduction:
AMR twin plate clutch and flywheel: -0 kg (this is apparently due to any changes in the flywheel weight would mean Aston Martin would have to re-run emissions tests, which they didnt. The benefit of this package is the weight of the flywheel has been moved more towards the centre, reducing rotational inertia that way).
Velocity AP twin plate clutch and flywheel: -3.2 kg
Bamford Rose twin plate clutch and flywheel: -7kg
Again, these figures are pulled from various sources, so I am not sure how accurate they are!
AMR twin plate clutch and flywheel: -0 kg (this is apparently due to any changes in the flywheel weight would mean Aston Martin would have to re-run emissions tests, which they didnt. The benefit of this package is the weight of the flywheel has been moved more towards the centre, reducing rotational inertia that way).
Velocity AP twin plate clutch and flywheel: -3.2 kg
Bamford Rose twin plate clutch and flywheel: -7kg
Again, these figures are pulled from various sources, so I am not sure how accurate they are!
cypriot said:
AMR twin plate clutch and flywheel: -0 kg (this is apparently due to any changes in the flywheel weight would mean Aston Martin would have to re-run emissions tests, which they didnt. The benefit of this package is the weight of the flywheel has been moved more towards the centre, reducing rotational inertia that way).
This image was posted on 6Speedonline by Redpants. and represents parts he has physically weighed. He doesn't have a 4.7.
edited to add
elsewhere in the same thread another user said he'd weighed some 4.7 bits:
4.7 Flywheel - 15lb 14.5oz
4.7 Clutch - 21lb 4 oz
4.7 Total - 37lb 2.5 oz
(if anyone wants to convert to kilo, then there's 16 oz in 1 lb and 2.2046 lbs to 1 kg)
edited to add
elsewhere in the same thread another user said he'd weighed some 4.7 bits:
4.7 Flywheel - 15lb 14.5oz
4.7 Clutch - 21lb 4 oz
4.7 Total - 37lb 2.5 oz
(if anyone wants to convert to kilo, then there's 16 oz in 1 lb and 2.2046 lbs to 1 kg)
Edited by LTP on Monday 22 February 17:54
LTP said:
This image was posted on 6Speedonline by Redpants. and represents parts he has physically weighed. He doesn't have a 4.7.
edited to add
elsewhere in the same thread another user said he'd weighed some 4.7 bits:
4.7 Flywheel - 15lb 14.5oz
4.7 Clutch - 21lb 4 oz
4.7 Total - 37lb 2.5 oz
So if the 4.7 flywheel is 7.215Kg, and BR has reduced the weight by 7Kg, that is a pretty light flywheel.edited to add
elsewhere in the same thread another user said he'd weighed some 4.7 bits:
4.7 Flywheel - 15lb 14.5oz
4.7 Clutch - 21lb 4 oz
4.7 Total - 37lb 2.5 oz
Edited by LTP on Monday 22 February 17:54
Perhaps its an overall flywheel + clutch saving of 7Kg, that would be more realistic, so lets work with that assumption.
4.3 OEM ....overall weight is 17.61Kg
4.7 OEM ....overall weight is 16.85Kg (-0.76Kg), a small change, but people do say it seems very noticeable
Velocity AP overall weight is 15.72Kg (-1.13Kg for a 4.7)
AMR ..........overall weight is 15.00Kg (-1.85Kg for a 4.7)
BR .............overall weight is 9.85Kg (-7.00Kg for a 4.7)
I'd like to believe these numbers, but the comparison shows the BR weight saving to be massively different from what others have achieved.
[all conversions from Imperial to Metric done by Alexa!]
MichaelV8V said:
I'd like to believe these numbers, but the comparison shows the BR weight saving to be massively different from what others have achieved.
True, but don’t forget that for a rotating assembly the distribution of the mass (polar moment) makes more difference than the actual deadweight mass. It’d be quite possible for a lighter flywheel to have a higher polar moment and make the engine slower to rev
fixed typo
Edited by LTP on Monday 22 February 20:36
MichaelV8V said:
So if the 4.7 flywheel is 7.215Kg, and BR has reduced the weight by 7Kg, that is a pretty light flywheel.
Perhaps its an overall flywheel + clutch saving of 7Kg, that would be more realistic, so lets work with that assumption.
4.3 OEM ....overall weight is 17.61Kg
4.7 OEM ....overall weight is 16.85Kg (-0.76Kg), a small change, but people do say it seems very noticeable
Velocity AP overall weight is 15.72Kg (-1.13Kg for a 4.7)
AMR ..........overall weight is 15.00Kg (-1.85Kg for a 4.7)
BR .............overall weight is 9.85Kg (-7.00Kg for a 4.7)
I'd like to believe these numbers, but the comparison shows the BR weight saving to be massively different from what others have achieved.
Perhaps its an overall flywheel + clutch saving of 7Kg, that would be more realistic, so lets work with that assumption.
4.3 OEM ....overall weight is 17.61Kg
4.7 OEM ....overall weight is 16.85Kg (-0.76Kg), a small change, but people do say it seems very noticeable
Velocity AP overall weight is 15.72Kg (-1.13Kg for a 4.7)
AMR ..........overall weight is 15.00Kg (-1.85Kg for a 4.7)
BR .............overall weight is 9.85Kg (-7.00Kg for a 4.7)
I'd like to believe these numbers, but the comparison shows the BR weight saving to be massively different from what others have achieved.
Logic tells me that overall weight is probably the right way to compare, because all of those parts do rotate together.
Race engines with very light flywheels, often have a tendency to stall when the engine revs are too low.
If the BR overall weight is so much less than the others, I would have expected an increased tendancy to stall when manoeuvring, but I have not noticed any difference in that respect.
I'm Redpants on 6speedonline, which replaced my Telum01 screen name on that forum when I became a sponsor.
As stated, I physically weighed the 4.3L, AMR, and VAP clutch packages, all on the same scale. I didn't get my numbers from anywhere else.
The AMR and VAP clutches provide a small weight loss on paper, but in practice it's substantial.
The VAP clutch is based around a V12 clutch and it's more robust than the one used in the AMR clutch. I prefer the potentially longer lifespan and higher torque capacity of the V12 clutch, so the on-paper weight difference doesn't make the AMR clutch more attractive to me. The VAP clutch was great with my last setup (lots of mods but still n/a) and has been doing very well with my supercharger kit as well.
I have no idea how an additional 5+ kg can be taken out of a clutch package beyond what the AMR and VAP offerings have done unless there are some serious compromises to the drivability, structural integrity, and/or torque capacity. I could be wrong, though. It'd be great to see a picture of the actual clutch package being weighed.
As stated, I physically weighed the 4.3L, AMR, and VAP clutch packages, all on the same scale. I didn't get my numbers from anywhere else.
The AMR and VAP clutches provide a small weight loss on paper, but in practice it's substantial.
The VAP clutch is based around a V12 clutch and it's more robust than the one used in the AMR clutch. I prefer the potentially longer lifespan and higher torque capacity of the V12 clutch, so the on-paper weight difference doesn't make the AMR clutch more attractive to me. The VAP clutch was great with my last setup (lots of mods but still n/a) and has been doing very well with my supercharger kit as well.
I have no idea how an additional 5+ kg can be taken out of a clutch package beyond what the AMR and VAP offerings have done unless there are some serious compromises to the drivability, structural integrity, and/or torque capacity. I could be wrong, though. It'd be great to see a picture of the actual clutch package being weighed.
MichaelV8V said:
4.3 OEM ....overall weight is 17.61Kg
4.7 OEM ....overall weight is 16.85Kg (-0.76Kg), a small change, but people do say it seems very noticeable.
4.7 OEM ....overall weight is 16.85Kg (-0.76Kg), a small change, but people do say it seems very noticeable.
A 4.7 has 10% more bhp and 15% more torque, than a 4.3.
Bearing that in mind, it seems remarkable that just a 1kg (clutch & flywheel) overall weight saving, is ''very noticeable'.
LTP said:
Hi Richard. 
l’m now really glad I gave you credit in my post. 
Great website and videos. Hope things are going well after the relocation, but I’d have killed for your old house. Or even just your old garage.
It's the internet age, I absolutely appreciated the credit l’m now really glad I gave you credit in my post. Great website and videos. Hope things are going well after the relocation, but I’d have killed for your old house. Or even just your old garage.
Relocation is completely f
ked sideways. Every single day is a new WTF experience and that's not hyperbole. I'll say the one thing I already miss is that house. Holy crap it was perfect. Maybe when I grow up I can get another one like it!EDIT: Garage included... The apartments I'm looking at overseas *in total* are the size of my damn garage...
One question I have guys is how much difference does the new clutch make to hill starts. We all know about the reversing problems but how do you cope when stopping at a red light on a hill or pulling away from parking on a hill. With the OEM clutch this can be tricky.
It’s ok if you live in California or middle England where it’s relatively flat but in Yorkshire, Cumbria etc. Just posing the question, interested in opinions. ( Manual car)
It’s ok if you live in California or middle England where it’s relatively flat but in Yorkshire, Cumbria etc. Just posing the question, interested in opinions. ( Manual car)
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