Future AM engines and Valhalla

Future AM engines and Valhalla

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Discussion

WantSagaris

236 posts

46 months

Friday 26th February 2021
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CB07 said:
Am I the only one thinking they could put the straight 6 M256 into the Vantage and make an affordable entry level proposition at say 80k?
I think a straight 6 front engine is a good idea, but the Vantage chassis doesn't cut it.

scampbird

265 posts

281 months

Friday 26th February 2021
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Jon39 said:

Shhhhh - a Nissan derived engine.

Actually the Valkyrie has a more of an original in-house engine, possessing more pedigree than that of Mclaren.
Aston Martin commissioned Cosworth to design and build a brand new engine. The first truly all Aston Martin engine for many years.

McLaren's is somewhat shall we say, Pre-owned.

'McLaren bought the rights to the Tom Walkinshaw Racing developed engine, itself based on the Nissan VRH engine architecture, which was designed for the IRL Indycar championship but never raced. ... In only 18 months, Ricardo went from a modified Nissan engine design to a running prototype.'

Ricardo, an old and successful British specialist engineering company, with a very interesting history. Based in Sussex, I think.

Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 25th February 21:04
Goodness what terrible provenance. An actual race-car derived engine. That is still unique to Mclaren. Not some 4 pot hybrid lifted from a Berlin taxi like Herr Moers seems to be suggesting might be appropriate for Valhalla.

Nbgring

152 posts

122 months

Friday 26th February 2021
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Big Ry said:
As ste as it is, who on earth would pump money into developing any form of ICE engine at all now.....it's money down the drain. Yes I would rather see an AML engine, but the reality is it's pissing money away.....money they haven't got.

In my opinion they're better off just using what they have and focusing on development for the future, when ICE engines are banned in all major markets.

As soon as we're all forced to use electric cars, then the drive-train becomes all but irrelevant, as they will all be 99% the same. Performance will also be irrelevant, as even a family hatch back will be as quick as a Ferrari if they want it to be. It'll all come down to the exterior aesthetics and interiors (Aston.....take note).
Agreed! It is not easy to develop your own engine. The critical thing is to achieve a layout that complies with emission standards, a layout that works reliable and is cost efficient to produce. And it has to be integrated with the electrical components in the drive train.
Therefore you should not start with a white sheet of paper. You would consider to use a template at least for a single cylinder. You could for example use either the design of the AMG V8, or the Ferrari V8, or the McLaren V8 and use the cylinder layout (bore, stroke, valves, camshaft, pistons). This process allows for cost efficient development and reliable operations / proven performance.
Using this approach you could develop an engine that is still bespoke – in the sense that it is for example a unique Aston Martin 120 degree V6 engine, and at the same time is based on proven and economic parts.
A mid engine sports car is a very complex and compact unit. I would assume that no other engine than a 120 degree V6 could fit into the tight engine bay. Any inline-six would be way too long, a V8 too large and too heavy. A four-cylinder engine would be considered as a bad joke or at least an unworthy option. Mercedes does not have anything at hand that would match.

Is the above mentioned article intending to lead us towards the conclusion that the Aston Martin engine project failed? If so, do you see any worthy alternative? Or would you assume that McLaren will be supplied with AMG-Mercedes-F1 engines and Aston road cars in exchange with McLaren engines?
Is it likely to cancel the whole mid-engine-projects Valhalla and Vanquish?

I would not like to overreact. Whatever happens to these two projects may not be the most important decision for Aston Martin´s survival. The sales figures for the DB11 and the DBX will be critical. Even more relevant is the “hybridization” of the drive train with components to make the cars compliant to future standards until 2030. As mentioned above: we will go electric after 2030...

Jonathank56

64 posts

44 months

Friday 26th February 2021
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The Mercedes tie up locks them into their engines. If they’d stayed independent I’d have gone modified LS V8 for the GT cars and the Corvette V6 engine for Vantage. As Big Sy says, who wants to be developing new ICE now when they’re going the way of the dinosaurs? That’s why I bought a V12 now.

IMHO Ford selling Aston was the worst outcome for the business long term. They could have become Fiat’s Ferrari. If GM bought them now the choice of engines and advanced engineering access could have made Aston a world beater.

Beckson

Original Poster:

371 posts

50 months

Friday 26th February 2021
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I'd rather have a Merc V8 than a GM engine. Sorry....maybe on paper the GM is great , but that just won't cut it on a premium British car.

At that point I'll be looking elsewhere, as I would with a 4 cyl AMG hybrid system. The amount of money to buy a new AM is so high, might as well just buy one used and save my money for some other toy at that point.

Can you imagine if the Db4/5/6 or 1970s/80s Vantages had used a GM v8 or the same engine architecture as a MB Clk230. Gross.

Sebastian Tombs

2,044 posts

191 months

Friday 26th February 2021
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For me this kills the brand completely. I would never buy an AMG-engined Aston and I predicted it was the first step along a road to badge engineering. I am very sad not to be proved wrong, An Aston based on a complete Mercedes platform is not an Aston; it's a Mercedes.

Why hire Tobias Moers in the first place? All AMG did was tune Mercs. Now he thinks that same recipe will work at Aston Martin.

What I don't understand is it is all so unnecessary. Aston have their V12. Why isn't that fitted to everything? Why even offer a V8?

And if a V8 was important, then what exactly was wrong with the one they already had? Yes, it was old, but it takes forced induction well as proved by JLR who are still making their version of it meet emissions regs perfectly well.

ICE engines are only going to be around for 9 more years, so why not continue to adapt the one you have? It's what everyone else is doing now.

And I never saw the point of the mid-engined range. It was Danny Bahar-style fluff to get headlines and please the investors.

I guess there may be some opportunity at the shareholders meeting to vote against the management or something. I don't know about such things.

Buzz Killington

146 posts

116 months

Friday 26th February 2021
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If they make a good looking car that drives and sounds good I might buy it. I'm not sure how bothered I am about weather ford, mercedes, Volvo or anyone else made which ever part. Truth be told I don't really get excited by the vantage. It has nothing to do with the engine though. I'm not in the market for and SUV. I do quite like the new dbx. Is it because it has an AM V12 in it? No, it's because it's bloody gorgeous and sounds fantastic. Of course, that's just my opinion. The only one that counts when I am paying.

SFO

5,162 posts

182 months

Friday 26th February 2021
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AMG engines are world class, and outstanding in their class.

Why would anyone prefer a GM engine is beyond me.

All those who rant about AM not having its own engines need to take some lessons in economics and economies of scale.

Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Friday 26th February 2021
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Sebastian Tombs said:

..... I guess there may be some opportunity at the shareholders meeting to vote against the management or something. I don't know about such things.

In theory shareholders can vote against the re-election of board members at annual general meetings.
In practice it is one share one vote, so for Aston Martin you might have to buy at least a billion Pounds worth of shares, before you have any hope of ejecting a director.

With that size holding, you would probably be on the board yourself, trying to work out how to make Aston Martin profitable. wink


JohnG1

3,462 posts

204 months

Friday 26th February 2021
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[quote=Jonathank56. If they’d stayed independent I’d have gone modified LS V8 for the GT cars and the Corvette V6 engine for Vantage..
[/quote]

Er, a cam-in-V low revving boat anchor V8?

Seriously, at least get something with heritage in the 21st Century.


DB9VolanteDriver

2,612 posts

175 months

Saturday 27th February 2021
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I grant you that it isn’t a screamer, but I suspect it is far less a boat anchor than an AMG v8. Power/weight is one of the big advantages of the single cam LS.

Beckson

Original Poster:

371 posts

50 months

Saturday 27th February 2021
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AMG engines should not be in a Aston martin, but make no mistake the 4.0L V8 from Mercedes and Porsche/Audi are incredible engines, very technically impressive and efficient for their size. I don't think I've seen a single negative review of these power units.

No comparing the power to weight ratio or technical design of the AMG or Audi v8 to a GM v8. That's like saying the old 6 3/4 from Bentley was better than the 4.0 V8. sure, it's a neat engine, but not efficient or technically impressive.


oilit

2,618 posts

177 months

Saturday 27th February 2021
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SFO said:
All those who rant about AM not having its own engines need to take some lessons in economics and economies of scale.
I think the emotional side wants AM technology, but the reality is that it doesn't seem to have hampered Bentley sales or Lamborghini that it is essentially VAG technology underneath has it?

IF the cars were stunning to look at and be in then I wouldn't care too much in the new world about whose electric gubbings is powering me - I'd rather it was German than Chinese.

This emphasizes that the product needs to be aesthetically drop dead gorgeous - which I am not sure if the new mid engined stuff is...

The problem for AM is that there certainly isn't anything in the current lineup or future published lineup that makes me want to reach for my wallet.

Now, having said that - would I buy a 5 year old Vantage or 5 year old DBX for 60-70% off as a useable everyday type car - possibly - but not new for the money being asked - just not special enough.

DB9VolanteDriver

2,612 posts

175 months

Saturday 27th February 2021
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Beckson said:
AMG engines should not be in a Aston martin, but make no mistake the 4.0L V8 from Mercedes and Porsche/Audi are incredible engines, very technically impressive and efficient for their size. I don't think I've seen a single negative review of these power units.

No comparing the power to weight ratio or technical design of the AMG or Audi v8 to a GM v8. That's like saying the old 6 3/4 from Bentley was better than the 4.0 V8. sure, it's a neat engine, but not efficient or technically impressive.
Putting up a straw man argument using the Bentley engine as a comparison to the AMG TT4.0 v8 is a bit disingenuous. The AMG weighs 460 lbs, same for the SC LT5, but the LT5 puts out 770 bhp vs the 600 for the AMG. Tell me again how the LT5 is old and outdated when comparing power to weight ratio?

JohnG1

3,462 posts

204 months

Saturday 27th February 2021
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DB9VolanteDriver said:
Beckson said:
AMG engines should not be in a Aston martin, but make no mistake the 4.0L V8 from Mercedes and Porsche/Audi are incredible engines, very technically impressive and efficient for their size. I don't think I've seen a single negative review of these power units.

No comparing the power to weight ratio or technical design of the AMG or Audi v8 to a GM v8. That's like saying the old 6 3/4 from Bentley was better than the 4.0 V8. sure, it's a neat engine, but not efficient or technically impressive.
Putting up a straw man argument using the Bentley engine as a comparison to the AMG TT4.0 v8 is a bit disingenuous. The AMG weighs 460 lbs, same for the SC LT5, but the LT5 puts out 770 bhp vs the 600 for the AMG. Tell me again how the LT5 is old and outdated when comparing power to weight ratio?
Ah come on. There are more metrics than power-to-weight ratio. Picking one metric, well, that's a game called "Top Trumps" , maybe you played that too?

Cam-in-V....

Come on, the 1950s are on the phone, they'd like their Powertrain back...

Venturist

3,472 posts

194 months

Saturday 27th February 2021
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JohnG1 said:
Ah come on. There are more metrics than power-to-weight ratio. Picking one metric, well, that's a game called "Top Trumps" , maybe you played that too?

Cam-in-V....

Come on, the 1950s are on the phone, they'd like their Powertrain back...
Can’t disagree with you more - the most important factors in a sports car engine are its sound, power-to-weight ratio, and eagerness to rev. The “1950s powertrain” isn’t even particularly bad on fuel. In fact can you outline how it is actually worse, beyond just that you perceive it as “old”? confused

cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Saturday 27th February 2021
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Jon39 said:


Of course the DB7 used a Jaguar platform, but Aston Martin then was in survival mode.
Aston Martin, as a sports car producer, is in survival mode now.

It may not surprise you to learn that I do not share the Shock!Horror!Gloom reaction to the AML announcements, nor do I particularly wish to see AP seen as some kind of fallen hero. Let's not forget that AP's strategy appears to have been to loot the company, resulting in the present debacle.

The DBX may be a great car, and I wish it well, but I have no wish to own one, nor a Cayenne, nor an Urus nor even a Bentayga, imho the best of the lot. It does not correspond with my image of an AM sports car.

If a tie up with Mercedes is what is required, is it really such a big problem? This has happened since the dawn of the motor car. If the company is successful building sports cars, then it can build its own engines. IMHO the Valhalla, Valkyrie and mid engined Vanquish were just vanity/window dressing projects, and of very little significance going forward. Unless of course MB decides to transfer its One project into Aston Martin. Only MB has the engineering credibility to make this work, and I would reiterate that they are not such fools as to waste the AM brand.

In no way is this the "END" of Aston Martin. Some people need to get real and understand that the kind of thing that went on in the sixties and seventies at Newport Pagnell was a lovely anachronism, and could not continue, except producing Goldfinger DB5's at £2.5m a pop. How many of us could afford those? Ford Owned AML for how long? AML engines were produced in a (superb) Ford plant in Cologne. Are we saying that Astons from that era are all Fords? I have a 2017 V8VS, and I don't think so. I think that it is a wonderful (relatively) modern expression of the AM spirit.We need to be realistic about the motor industry and the art of the possible, people.

I cannot see the point of F1, I have no idea who Cognizant are, but my view is give Stroll and Moers a chance. The position is far far better than it was a year or two ago, even with Covid.


Edited by cardigankid on Saturday 27th February 09:32

Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Saturday 27th February 2021
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oilit said:
I think the emotional side wants AM technology, but the reality is that it doesn't seem to have hampered Bentley sales or Lamborghini that it is essentially VAG technology underneath has it?

I am simply putting this point out for discussion, not saying it is true.

The two cars you have selected oilit, are very much 'here I am, look at me cars'.
Does that mean the buyers might not be intense car enthusiasts, or so concerned about the construction intricacies?

It is always suggested, that many (possibly most) Aston Martin buyers take a great interest in their cars and often the history of the marque, also placing considerable importance on the understated and beautiful features.

Those variations might possibly result in prospective Aston Martin customers, having different requirements and arriving at their buying decisions in a different way.



cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Saturday 27th February 2021
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If it looks like an Aston Martin, sounds like an Aston Martin and drives like an Aston Martin, it probably is an Aston Martin. I think that we are worrying about trivia, when we should be trying to help them survive.

V8V Pete

2,496 posts

125 months

Saturday 27th February 2021
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I've just come off a Zoom presentation of the McLaren Artura (from the MTC, not a third party). The 120 degree V6 in that is a new clean sheet design, apparently not derived from anything else (I did ask this specific question). So it is possible to create a new engine, even these days, even without the economies of scale. Or McLaren are about to go bust. Maybe.